M-series Macs versus the rest: Why?

[Al Rukh]

If you know that PC laptops are cheaper and have better specs, why does it bother you so much when a reviewer says that? Comparisons helps to understand what value each notebook brings.


Explaining user experience is difficult because it is very subjective and depends on many factors. Therefore, I think it should be Apple's marketing job to explain it and not third party reviewers.


People tend to buy the cheapest laptop that meets their requirements. However, some people have very specific requirements that narrow the pool of possible laptops to a few and that increases the price of possible purchases. It sounds like one of your requirements is to run macOS and you don't mind paying more for it.

Comparison between a $2.3k MacBook and a $1.8k Windows laptop makes sense. However, comparing a MacBook with a Windows laptop (both at same/similar price point) under the premise of said Windows laptop having a slightly better spec config, is rather pointless, especially when there is little to zero context I.e. ‘you can get a laptop with twice the RAM and SSD with this price’ because I believe most people would have considered this and do not mind the base M3 shipping with those specs as they do value the display, build quality, efficiency, software updates, resale values, power to wattage performance over absolute numbers like 16 vs 8 (RAM) or 512 vs 1TB (SSD).

However, if you need to have a Windows laptop for a specific use, then get it. That is all I’m saying. There’s no need to compare these two machines because anyone who picks one over the other knows what they need/want.

 

[Xiao_Xi]

Comparison between a $2.3k MacBook and a $1.8k Windows laptop makes sense. However, comparing a MacBook with a Windows laptop (both at same/similar price point) under the premise of said Windows laptop having a slightly better spec config, is rather pointless,

Comparisons between two laptops with similar specs (but possibly different prices) or two laptops with similar prices (but possibly different specs) are fair and useful. They help you understand what you can get for your budget or how much you have to pay to meet your needs.

they do value the display, build quality, efficiency, software updates, resale values, power to wattage performance over absolute numbers like 16 vs 8 (RAM) or 512 vs 1TB (SSD)

Everyone tends to value more the specifications that matter to them. You may value some specifications that others don't or vice versa, but that doesn't mean that none of them are unimportant.

 

[Abazigal]

If you know that PC laptops are cheaper and have better specs, why does it bother you so much when a reviewer says that? Comparisons helps to understand what value each notebook brings.

To use an older scenario, it's like comparing the old snapdragon or Exynos processors with the A7 chip, and declaring the latter is crippled because it only had 1 gb of ram and 2 cores. But in real-world usage, it actually meant the iPhone 5s was faster because more cores meant more heat, which meant android phones throttled and sucked more battery.

It's an example of how Apple designs its products with the end experience in mind, not to win meaningless spec wars. But at the same time, I acknowledge that Apple also has the luxury of not needing to engage in such battles because it is able to differentiate itself via iOS, an OS which it controls and is able to optimise for their own hardware. Compared to android smartphone makers all running the same OS and their only claim to superiority are stuff like "this screen has a slightly higher PPI" or "my phone has a bit more ram" or "my camera has more megapixels" but then you find out that the phones don't really take any better photos because the software processing the images hasn't evolved.

Even something like price also has its share of caveats and asterisks. For example, an iPhone's higher price is partially offset by its higher resale value. A laptop can be cheaper because it has poorer build quality and therefore not last as long.

So in this case, comparing a windows laptop with 16gb ram to a Macbook with 8gb ram is only as meaningful as the reviewer's ability to enunciate what that means for the end user in terms of the user experience, but instead, it's typically just mentioned in passing and I am like "so?"

And I am willing to bet that more often than not, the people making these reviews don't really know either.

Explaining user experience is difficult because it is very subjective and depends on many factors. Therefore, I think it should be Apple's marketing job to explain it and not third party reviewers.

I will say that Apple has done a good enough job of communicating the value of their offerings to enough people to make it insanely profitable, and that's probably good enough for now.

 

[Gudi]

Is that the crux of this thread then? You would 100% unequivocally chose a Mac over a PC and it's beyond you that anyone would get a PC. Another classic MR thread, thanks.

An ARM-based Mac in particular. I’ve been looking up prices to upgrade older Intel Macs with newer ones (now that all of them are obsolete). But the second-hand prices are ridiculous. They want real money for this x86 trash. I’d rather save up for that upcoming large iMac! 🖥️

Now it’s a classic MR thread. 😏

 

[h.gilbert]

Comparison between a $2.3k MacBook and a $1.8k Windows laptop makes sense. However, comparing a MacBook with a Windows laptop (both at same/similar price point) under the premise of said Windows laptop having a slightly better spec config, is rather pointless, especially when there is little to zero context I.e. ‘you can get a laptop with twice the RAM and SSD with this price’ because I believe most people would have considered this and do not mind the base M3 shipping with those specs as they do value the display, build quality, efficiency, software updates, resale values, power to wattage performance over absolute numbers like 16 vs 8 (RAM) or 512 vs 1TB (SSD).

However, if you need to have a Windows laptop for a specific use, then get it. That is all I’m saying. There’s no need to compare these two machines because anyone who picks one over the other knows what they need/want.

What are you even trying to say at this point?

Your first paragraph can be summarised as: it's pointless to make general comparisons between Macbooks and Windows laptops because most people prefer the feature set of Macbooks.

And your second paragraph: Comparisons are pointless because people know what they want.

There's no 'take' here, you've just wasted a bunch of words.

 

[Xiao_Xi]

To use an older scenario, it's like comparing the old snapdragon or Exynos processors with the A7 chip, and declaring the latter is crippled because it only had 1 gb of ram and 2 cores. But in real-world usage, it actually meant the iPhone 5s was faster because more cores meant more heat, which meant android phones throttled and sucked more battery.

It's an example of how Apple designs its products with the end experience in mind, not to win meaningless spec wars.

I find it intriguing that you chose as an example what was happening 10 years ago with phones instead of what is happening now with Macs and PC laptops. I would have expected you to give as an example that 8GB of RAM on macOS is equivalent to 16GB of RAM on Windows.

 

[Al Rukh]

What are you even trying to say at this point?

Your first paragraph can be summarised as: it's pointless to make general comparisons Macbooks and Windows laptops because most people prefer the feature set of Macbooks.

And your second paragraph: Comparisons are pointless because people know what they want.

There's no 'take' here, you've just wasted a bunch of words.

There’s a difference. Those who purchased MacBooks, do know there are better spec-out Windows laptop out there with same or similar price point but do not care for it, as they value the things I’ve listed in that post. I’m referring to those who went and bought a MacBook - I’m not saying most prefer said features in a MacBook. My second paragraph doubles down on that.

 

[Abazigal]

I find it intriguing that you chose as an example what was happening 10 years ago with phones instead of what is happening now with Macs and PC laptops. I would have expected you to give as an example that 8GB of RAM on macOS is equivalent to 16GB of RAM on Windows.

My experience with windows and macOS is kinda independent of ram. For example, I use a windows laptop for work (16 gb ram, 512 gb storage) and activating the shortcut to take a screenshot occasionally has a lag to it (was up to five seconds once). I also get frequent WiFi disconnects (especially when waking it up from sleep) and Intel is still Intel.

In short, it seems like windows is still the same windows that led me to try out macOS in the first place in 2011 (after close to 20 years with it), and no amount of ram is going to make a difference in this regard.

 

[Gudi]

I would have expected you to give as an example that 8GB of RAM on macOS is equivalent to 16GB of RAM on Windows.

The problem with this claim is that Windows and macOS will never be equivalent, regardless of how much memory you put in either machine. Any number of 8, 12, 16 or 18 Gigabytes will always be wrong. You're literally comparing apples to oranges.

x*🍏 = 16🍊 , x=?

There is no point in comparing fundamentally different things and claim an orange is better than an apple in one single aspect, which is completely irrelevant to the entirety of what an Apple is. An Apple is not defined by how much RAM it has.

 

[iJulio]

It’s 2023, well almost the end of it and we have a lot of people - consumers, prosumers and tech analysts comparing Macs against Windows (especially in the laptop/notebook category).

It didn’t make sense then, and it doesn’t now. In my country, a baseline i7 XPS 15 is the same price as the baseline M3 MBP. To me it is a rather clear-cut decision to make.

Now that I’ve got my rants out of the way, why do people compare prices and specs between Macs and Windows laptop?

I grew up using Windows machines for almost all of my life until I slowly transitioned to Apple computers and devices as an adult. It was a gradual change but I feel I represent the typical consumer that slowly crosses over into the Apple side upon their first purchase of an apple product, whether it be the iPhone or iPad, etc.

From my experience, in general, every apple device I have ever used or owned simply performed BETTER than its comparable counterpart. Whether it was an iPad vs another tablet or iPhone vs another phone or Mac vs another computer, they all just simply performed better and the experience was significantly better. For most people, the vast majority, specs don’t really matter as they’re simply just words and numbers on the back of a box. What matters is the EXPERIENCE.

The vast majority of Windows OEM computers that I see on store shelves are junk, with the exception of the Microsoft Surface devices.

 

[theluggage]

Any number of 8, 12, 16 or 18 Gigabytes will always be wrong. You're literally comparing apples to oranges.

Except we have to assume that a gigabyte on Windows is the same as a gigabyte on MacOS (and, if you're talking LPDDR5 laptops, comes in the same chips) until someone comes up with some compelling evidence otherwise . Waving your hands and saying "MacOS is more efficient" or "because Unified Memory (which is different to Intel integrated graphics because reasons)" doesn't prove that for real workflows which may or may not have been optimised to take full advantage of Apple Silicon, Metal etc.

Now, there's almost certainly a difference between how much RAM you need to boot up the OS and load Office/Photoshop/Whatever without things getting sticky, and 8GB is probably fine for that on both systems. Heck, you can still get 4GB PCs (at a fraction of the cost of any Mac) and they do basically work (and I certainly didn't allocate more than 4GB to Parallels when I was running Windows in a VM).

...but once you start using those apps, how much RAM you need depends on what you are doing. A 24 Megapixel RAW image takes the same number of bytes in Windows as it does in MacOS. Not to mention all those cases where you're using pretty much the same software on Mac as you would on Windows (a lot of stuff is using things like electron, which basicslly means an instance of chrome + software written in Javascript).

Whatever system you use, if your data is being continually swapped to SSD rather than staying resident in RAM, your processor is being slowed down for want of what should be a $50 nail.

...and nobody is arguing the toss over a 10% difference in RAM size. Nor is the comparsion between MacBooks and bargain bucket $400 plastic bricks or Chromebooks. When you look at premium, thin'n'light ultrabook ranges like Dell XPS or ThinkBook which might actually bear comparison with MacBooks they are increasingly coming with either 16GB RAM, 512GB or 1TB SSD or both. Of course, the PC market is huge, and the product ranges offered by the likes of Dell are a confusing dumpster fire so you can always cherry-pick exceptions (yes folks, Microsoft Surface and Razer have copied the Apple tax but - unlike Apple - they're not in the top 5 PC vendors).

 

[Gudi]

Except we have to assume that a gigabyte on Windows is the same as a gigabyte on MacOS until someone comes up with some compelling evidence otherwise.

No, we don't. In fact it's very dangerous to replace knowledge with assumptions. And we should ask ourselves: How much RAM does an M3 really need? Without even carrying over prior experience with M1 Macs. It could be that the all new GPU architecture indeed is held back by only 8 GB RAM, while the old one wasn't.

People used to think that a calorie was a calorie and it didn't matter whether the energy came from carbs, protein or fat. Not only was that assumption totally false, but as it turns out it's even more important when and how often and in which order you eat. Eating the exact same food, but in just one big meal a day will completely change the outcome. Switching calories from carbs with calories from fat, will improve your health tremendously.

So why should we assume that 1 GB of unified memory is the same as 1 GB of divided memory? That x86 processors digest data the same way as ARM chips? Every SSD speed benchmark distinguishes between Reads and Writes for Small and Large files as well as Sequential and Random access. Why then should we believe, that the only thing to evaluate memory is the overall size RAM size? Why is nobody talking about the memory bus, which is much wider in the Pro and Max chips?

8 vs.16 is the same fallacy as calories-in-calories-out. You can't judge performance by just one handy number. You've got to test a machine in a real world scenario and see how it keeps up. Spec sheets do not ever tell the true story.

 

[Warped9]

Apple doesn’t really compete in the mainstream unless you want to compare second-hand Macs with new Windows devices, and you don’t hear many people talk about that much.

The mainstream is dominated by Windows devices. Part of this is due to materials used in their construction. Windows devices are predominantly made of plastic no matter what the specs are. If you want a Windows device made of metal then you’re getting into Mac prices. There is also the matter that Windows laptops with the same or more power cannot equal the battery life current MacBooks offer.

A lot of people are also predisposed against Apple because of perceptions about a more closed system, higher price and unfamiliar OS. A lot of it boils down to perceived value with the lowest common denominators: what specs available for a given price. As such many see Apple as something of a luxury item.

The vast majority of consumers are familiar with Windows largely given most workplaces use Windows, so people are inclined to stick with whats familiar when choosing something for their personal use. For a lot of them Apple exists as some nebulous afterthought that doesn’t really figure into their considerations.

Macs appeal to people who see something beyond hardware specs. They want a particular user experience they don’t see in non Apple products. Basically you either ”get it” or you don’t.

 

[Fuzzball84]

Take 8 GB or RAM and install it in a PC... you have 8 GM of RAM.. and you get on with your work.

Take 8 GB of RAM and merge it with Apple Silicon, you have unlimited RAM, a tendency to DaVinci Resolve, an obsession with Macrumers, and worrying about every Apple device you buy... if it was the right decision, how long Apple will support it, what other people think 😂

 

[Fuzzball84]

I grew up using Windows machines for almost all of my life until I slowly transitioned to Apple computers and devices as an adult. It was a gradual change but I feel I represent the typical consumer that slowly crosses over into the Apple side upon their first purchase of an apple product, whether it be the iPhone or iPad, etc.

From my experience, in general, every apple device I have ever used or owned simply performed BETTER than its comparable counterpart. Whether it was an iPad vs another tablet or iPhone vs another phone or Mac vs another computer, they all just simply performed better and the experience was significantly better. For most people, the vast majority, specs don’t really matter as they’re simply just words and numbers on the back of a box. What matters is the EXPERIENCE.

The vast majority of Windows OEM computers that I see on store shelves are junk, with the exception of the Microsoft Surface devices.

I have to agree with you on this... and this is the key thing.. Apple is selling to consumers an experience.. this is why it isn't really that important to most of their buyers that its M1 or M3, it has 8 GB RAM etc.. If they are still selling M1, it's because Apple have decided it still provides their customers with that Apple experience. The vast majority of customers, who just do regular things.

Anyone else with specific workflow needs, and they know who they are, thats when you need to be informed and choose one processor over the other, whether to spec more RAM.

Thats why I don't get it when some on here criticise the base models. It's a nonsense.. it's clearly not for them if they have a specific, memory or processor intensive workload.

As for Microsoft Surface... I was so happy Microsoft started making this hardware. They have upped the game big time for the PC industry. I remember seeing articles that many PC manufacturers were concerned about Microsoft releasing this hardware... because they knew it would make them up their game. They have brought Apple levels of build quality and design to PC sector whereas in the recent past I can only think IBM/ Thinkpads (business, maybe Dell too) and maybe Sony/Samsung (consumer) would push that.

 

[Fuzzball84]

Apple doesn’t really compete in the mainstream unless you want to compare second-hand Macs with new Windows devices, and you don’t hear many people talk about that much.

The mainstream is dominated by Windows devices. Part of this is due to materials used in their construction. Windows devices are predominantly made of plastic no matter what the specs are. If you want a Windows device made of metal then you’re getting into Mac prices. There is also the matter that Windows laptops with the same or more power cannot equal the battery life current MacBooks offer.

A lot of people are also predisposed against Apple because of perceptions about a more closed system, higher price and unfamiliar OS. A lot of it boils down to perceived value with the lowest common denominators: what specs available for a given price. As such many see Apple as something of a luxury item.

The vast majority of consumers are familiar with Windows largely given most workplaces use Windows, so people are inclined to stick with whats familiar when choosing something for their personal use. For a lot of them Apple exists as some nebulous afterthought that doesn’t really figure into their considerations.

Macs appeal to people who see something beyond hardware specs. They want a particular user experience they don’t see in non Apple products. Basically you either ”get it” or you don’t.

Apple are prosumer... what they sell sits slightly above regular consumer.. and they sell the whole package.

 

[Warped9]

People will balk over the current iMac, but most of those griping are previous larger iMac users. Compare the current iMac against a Windows AIO and it’s a different story. Except for PC AIOs maybe offering you a larger display there is no serious comparison with the M1 or M3 iMac. And that larger PC AIO display likely isn’t on the same level as the iMac’s.

 

[Al Rukh]

Here’s the evidence of the price of a XPS 15 base in my country:

The M3 MBP, 8/512GBs is the same price as this.

 

[Jumpthesnark]

The entire premise to this ridiculous thread presumes that shoppers are comparing laptop specs and deciding between Windows and Apple based on that. Some will, sure, but it's ignoring a huge segment of consumers who are already used to one system or another, who are influenced by advertising and other aspirational approaches, who simply buy one or the other because they've heard from friends that's what they should do.

Is someone like me going to ever compare a Windows machine to a Mac when I make my next purchase? No. I've used Wintel in the past, I won't again. Likewise, a lot of gamers (for example) would never look at a Mac. They've already made their decision to buy Windows and their only question is which Wintel machine do they get. Other shoppers ask a friend or knowledgable relative. "I want to buy a laptop for so-and-so because they're going off to college in the fall. What should I get them?" Those people are completely agnostic in their decisions and simply want to buy something that works.

Then there's the group - and it's huge - who simply go to Best Buy and ask "which laptop should I get?" to the first person in a blue shirt that they see.

People make decisions based on prior experience and emotions more often than not. I'd bet that for most shoppers, comparing Mac and Windows is way down on their list of things to do.

 

[iJulio]

I have to agree with you on this... and this is the key thing.. Apple is selling to consumers an experience.. this is why it isn't really that important to most of their buyers that its M1 or M3, it has 8 GB RAM etc.. If they are still selling M1, it's because Apple have decided it still provides their customers with that Apple experience. The vast majority of customers, who just do regular things.

Anyone else with specific workflow needs, and they know who they are, thats when you need to be informed and choose one processor over the other, whether to spec more RAM.

Thats why I don't get it when some on here criticise the base models. It's a nonsense.. it's clearly not for them if they have a specific, memory or processor intensive workload.

As for Microsoft Surface... I was so happy Microsoft started making this hardware. They have upped the game big time for the PC industry. I remember seeing articles that many PC manufacturers were concerned about Microsoft releasing this hardware... because they knew it would make them up their game. They have brought Apple levels of build quality and design to PC sector whereas in the recent past I can only think IBM/ Thinkpads (business, maybe Dell too) and maybe Sony/Samsung (consumer) would push that.

I think a lot of people don’t realize that 8GB RAM on an entry level Mac geared towards the masses is more than sufficient for Mac OS to run without any issue. From my experience, 8GB RAM on Mac OS goes a lot further than on Windows.

 

[Fuzzball84]

The entire premise to this ridiculous thread presumes that shoppers are comparing laptop specs and deciding between Windows and Apple based on that. Some will, sure, but it's ignoring a huge segment of consumers who are already used to one system or another, who are influenced by advertising and other aspirational approaches, who simply buy one or the other because they've heard from friends that's what they should do.

Is someone like me going to ever compare a Windows machine to a Mac when I make my next purchase? No. I've used Wintel in the past, I won't again. Likewise, a lot of gamers (for example) would never look at a Mac. They've already made their decision to buy Windows and their only question is which Wintel machine do they get. Other shoppers ask a friend or knowledgable relative. "I want to buy a laptop for so-and-so because they're going off to college in the fall. What should I get them?" Those people are completely agnostic in their decisions and simply want to buy something that works.

Then there's the group - and it's huge - who simply go to Best Buy and ask "which laptop should I get?" to the first person in a blue shirt that they see.

People make decisions based on prior experience and emotions more often than not. I'd bet that for most shoppers, comparing Mac and Windows is way down on their list of things to do.

Whether you like it or not... you will be using PC and related devices indirectly... Unix, Linux and Windows etc drive most of the stuff we do.

Id say people who buy Macs are people who for the most part buy on prior experience and emotions... More than many. Just look at these forums 😂 A huge part of Apples following is based on brand loyalty and emotions.. no other company has anything quite like it...

But Id say if Apple poured huge amounts of effort and money into making a Mac geared towards gaming, and got all the major developers to port to it.. PC gamers would take a look. 100 %

In any case, people buy based on what they need, what they get recommended, or what they know. And there's nothing wrong with that. Its the same for buying other white goods etc etc

 

[Jumpthesnark]

Whether you like it or not... you will be using PC and related devices indirectly... Unix, Linux and Windows etc drive most of the stuff we do.

I don't understand this comment. Are you talking about servers? If so, we don't purchase them, we connect to them. This thread is about what people buy, and none of us buy a Google server farm. If I'm incorrect in my assumption about what you mean, please let me know.

Id say people who buy Macs are people who for the most part buy on prior experience and emotions...

All people do. Mac buyers are no different than PC buyers in this regard. As I mentioned, I have experience with both and I've made my decisions based on that. Other posts in this thread say similar.

In any case, people buy based on what they need, what they get recommended, or what they know. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Oh wait, that's exactly what my post said.

 

[Fuzzball84]

I don't understand this comment. Are you talking about servers? If so, we don't purchase them, we connect to them. This thread is about what people buy, and none of us buy a Google server farm. If I'm incorrect in my assumption about what you mean, please let me know.



All people do. Mac buyers are no different than PC buyers in this regard. As I mentioned, I have experience with both and I've made my decisions based on that. Other posts in this thread say similar.


I couldn't have said it better myself. Oh wait, that's exactly what my post said.

You indirectly pay for those server farms... either with your money, time or actions via advertising clicks etc
And when you go to a museum, what's driving that display? shops, what's powering that checkout or self service? At the train station, that ticket machine?

Not all people purchase based on prior experience or emotion. But I have found a sub section of Apple customers extremely loyal... to the extreme. Nowhere else do you see loyalty quite like this, but Id say good for Apple and its shareholders.

and yeah.. the last point I agree

 

[JoeDezibel]

What a question! How old are you?

 

[Fuzzball84]

What a question! How old are you?

We neither know the how or the why about this 🤨

Apples v Oranges... but all I was after was an Apple 😂