Why wouldn't you compare a Windows laptop and a Mac? It's not they're entirely different categories of things, they're just different executions of a laptop.
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M-series Macs versus the rest: Why?
- Thread starter Al Rukh
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I think the word you are looking for here is "Trust".
In summary, Apple users tend to buy trust, not specs.
Comparing number of cores, RAM, processing benchmarks, drive size, etc. are just a rabbit hole to get lost in.
1st to consider is software. If you already own and use something will it run on your new laptop. If it new software (work, school or playing) is it available for your new laptop. Don’t buy a new machine with the intention of using it primarily as a host for a VM.
2nd (for me at least) is longevity. I despise migrating to new hardware. I only do it when I absolutely have to. You are much better paying for quality up front with the intention of keeping it 5 to 10 years. This is a much bigger issue with windows machines where are lot of low price junk is available (not just the brand but the specific product too - e.g. HP sells some real low cost junk). This is not about “future proofing”, it about build quality. Most apple products (excluding butterfly keyboard) and window brand name gaming machines, I would consider, to be high quality hardware. A good warranty is nice but it is not a substitute for good build quality- having to take your laptop in to be repaired in a bad thing, even if covered under a warranty.
3rd Then look at battery life, size, weight and screen size. But only after considering the above.
And then finally price
1st to consider is software. If you already own and use something will it run on your new laptop. If it new software (work, school or playing) is it available for your new laptop. Don’t buy a new machine with the intention of using it primarily as a host for a VM.
2nd (for me at least) is longevity. I despise migrating to new hardware. I only do it when I absolutely have to. You are much better paying for quality up front with the intention of keeping it 5 to 10 years. This is a much bigger issue with windows machines where are lot of low price junk is available (not just the brand but the specific product too - e.g. HP sells some real low cost junk). This is not about “future proofing”, it about build quality. Most apple products (excluding butterfly keyboard) and window brand name gaming machines, I would consider, to be high quality hardware. A good warranty is nice but it is not a substitute for good build quality- having to take your laptop in to be repaired in a bad thing, even if covered under a warranty.
3rd Then look at battery life, size, weight and screen size. But only after considering the above.
And then finally price
I think to an extent yes…but this applies to our relationships with all companies to one extent or another. If we don’t trust a company we are very much likely to go elsewhere.I think the word you are looking for here is "Trust".
In summary, Apple users tend to buy trust, not specs.
Those of us who have been around a long while who had issues with their initial online data services lost part of that trust. I now rely on other companies for my online storage etc
So now I trust Apple more with my privacy, than my data.
What I do expect, is a certain experience. A level of quality, design, and support. So, since the butterfly keyboards I wait for tear downs and reviews before buying… I have high expectations, but don’t blindly trust them. So no preorders, no buying without seeing how the devices perform in the real world.
But we all have our ways, expectations, opinions etc 😀
What knowledge? In the absence of other evidence, the sensible assumption is that the memory fairy doesn't wave their wand and turn one gigabyte into two gigabytes because your computer uses a different instruction set and has a different trade name for sharing system RAM with the GPU.
You want to make the claim that 8GB on a Mac is somehow equivalent to 16GB on a PC (which many people including an Apple spokesperson have claimed) then go get some actual, credible, evidence (i.e. not a bit of puff by some Apple marketing person). The definition of "knowledge" is not "a different assumption that better suits my world view".
Now, find some actual, relevant, credible, testable data that proves this 16GB PC = 8GB Mac effect (or something close) and we're cooking with gas. Who knows, it could be true (the other side of the coin is that it shouldn't be worth the effort because its only Apple's increasingly outdated RAM prices that force people to scrimp on RAM in the first place).
No - your fallacy is that you're reversing the burden of proof. You want to make an extraordinary claim, you need to provide extraordinary evidence. Until then, the rational assumption stands.
You might start with "calories in = calories out" (and no it's not false - its the law of conservation of energy - it's just too general to help you plan your diet since it doesn't deal wigh how, when and where the calories come out) and then improve on that by collecting evidence (that means painstaking research and experiments - breakfast cereal labels are not scientific evidence).
1GB of RAM on PC == 1GB of RAM on Mac is a much stronger assumption since computers are rather simpler and easier to experiment on (the ethics committee tend to take a dim view of force-feeding humans and then burning them in a calorimeter - you have to trust the subjects to fully disclose their midnight snacks...)
Comparing similar devices. However, the M1 MacBook Air is three years old while the Microsoft Surface Go 3 is new.
Similar performance in some respects, but in bench scores the MBA is clearly better. The MBA also has a better display, better audio, better keyboard, better trackpad and feels generally more responsive in day-to-day general use. In terms of battery the MBA clearly wins particularly considering the Surface has to be in best-performance-mode to compete with the MBA in performance. The MBA also runs cooler despite being fanless.
It did strike me the reviewer tries to wave away some of the differences as if he wants the Surface to be seen as just as good as the MBA. But numbers don’t lie and his subjective conclusions don’t lie either—the MBA wins out. The Surface might feel like a “nice little computer,” but the MBA is simply a more premium feeling device overall. Yeah, the Surface has a touchscreen, but it doesn’t always work that well and the reviewer concedes some tablets (like iPad) have far better touch interfaces.
Similar performance in some respects, but in bench scores the MBA is clearly better. The MBA also has a better display, better audio, better keyboard, better trackpad and feels generally more responsive in day-to-day general use. In terms of battery the MBA clearly wins particularly considering the Surface has to be in best-performance-mode to compete with the MBA in performance. The MBA also runs cooler despite being fanless.
It did strike me the reviewer tries to wave away some of the differences as if he wants the Surface to be seen as just as good as the MBA. But numbers don’t lie and his subjective conclusions don’t lie either—the MBA wins out. The Surface might feel like a “nice little computer,” but the MBA is simply a more premium feeling device overall. Yeah, the Surface has a touchscreen, but it doesn’t always work that well and the reviewer concedes some tablets (like iPad) have far better touch interfaces.
That's an extremely low powered *tablet* starting at about $500 -- I would expect almost anything to beat it.
If the XPS laptop allows future RAM and NVME upgrades then I think it's a better choice, but again it comes with Windows.
The XPS is quite a nice laptop if it has the OLED screen. I have one. (32G RAM, 1TB SSD, i7) A little heavier than I like though.
Because most prospective buyers of either of these two laptops have subconsciously decided which platform they want to use. Hence there is no need to compare a Windows laptop against a MacBook. Sub-comparison between specs of these two different machines makes no sense either as it is unlikely to sway, for example, a MacBook buyer to a Windows laptop buyer just because you can get the latter at a similar/same price and it comes with better paper specs.
There are many reviewers out there in the tech space suggesting users to consider this or that Windows laptop just because it has a better spec than the MacBook they’re reviewing.
Even if that were true, which I don't think it is, why does that matter? If I've decided I want to buy Thing A, I still compare with what else is out there to see if it's a good deal, etc. Even if I have no intention of buying Thing B or Thing C, I can still benefit from the information.
What you jsut said makes no sense. As in, I literally cannot follow the point you're trying to make. There are people out there who are:
a) undecided on which platform they're going to choose,
b) considering switching platforms but wanting to see how the other side holds up for their uses, or
c) not all-in on one platform or might have more than one machine.
Apparently, all of these people are just not worth catering to, according to you?
Yup, there are lots of bad reviewers out there. Welcome to the internet. Just because someone does their job badly doesn't mean that someone else isn't doing that same job well and that the information will never be useful.
I totally agree with you. But, why do we get reviewers comparing a MacBook to a Windows laptop then? It’s highly unproductive and it does not help the consumer. Like I’ve said in a post today, most people already know which platform they want to be invested in.
If reviewers are comparing a $500 Windows machine against a $2k MacBook, and forming a conclusion of ‘you can do most of the task on the cheaper Windows whatever’ is more palatable. However there are statements along the line of ‘get the XPS 15 over the base M3 MBP because it has a higher RAM config over the MBP, at the same price’, which I find it to be absurd. If you need a Windows, get the XPS in this case. If you want a Mac, get the MBP then - why do people use ‘higher/better’ specs as a point of argument when these two machines are priced similarly with just minor differences in specs?
They are "winning" by holding 70% of desktop / laptop OS market vs 20% for Mac. And it's not because businesses employ idiots who don't know what's good for them.
Or like gaming, support for specialized business and engineering software, repairability, or the ability to build custom system suited to specific needs.
... because a lot of that simply doesn't exist in the Mac world. It's pointless to discuss the suitability of Macs for major business applications that don't even exist on Mac, or are severely crippled.
There are definitely some business sectors where Macs are common - graphic design, photography, video production. But for example in the engineering / manufacturing world, there's very little room for Macs. I am unaware of any major BIM suite that runs on Mac, for example. Or 3D design software - AFAIK, NX had discontinued its Mac version several years ago, Inventor and CATIA never had one (to the best of my knowledge). You can run Inventor under Parallels... if you are a glutton for punishment.
There are some guys in our company whose Windows desktops are about twice the size of a typical desktop, with major cooling systems, these are custom build machines that cost about as much as a new SUV. You can't even build something like this in Macland, and if you could, you would still not be able to run the software they were designed for.
Macs are great. I love mine. As a personal laptop. But they are not better than "any Windows computers" because Windows computers cover a huge span of specs and performance and software.
I, for one, want to see those kind of reviews. I have both Macs and PC's and it tells me a lot about my next purchase. Maybe most people don't care, I wouldn't claim to know what everyone else wants, but there's a lot of us that do.
If the job that that machine is going to do can be done on either Windows or the Mac, better specs / price does indeed mean something. People do buy machines based on a need usually, and it's not always only Mac or only Windows.
That’s very true. Hence back to my question; why do people make cross platform comparison, when the price and specs are similar?
Truth. The vast majority of prospective buyers are indeed predisposed to one platform or the other. It’s rather rare you get someone seriously pondering choosing between platforms.
You do get some people considering switching from one platform to another after years of use, and it’s far more common to see those people considering a switch to Mac from Windows. Indeed I don’t think I’ve ever come across a Mac user considering a switch to Windows. It’s not unusual to find people using both platforms—Windows at work and Mac at home for personal use.
I think most people get started on Windows and a lot of that likely because of school or work. I don’t know how common my experience is—I was 42 when I bought my first computer, and it was a Mac. Most everyone I knew save one person was using Windows. And Windows was common at work. But to me the Mac looked more user friendly, and I thought the G3 iMac looked so damned cool compared to the cheap looking beige or black boxes that were PC desktops.
And here I am today and I would never consider a Windows device. Ditto with Android. I still think most of them look like junk, and Windows, no matter its evolution, still looks like a messy nightmare to me. Whenever I have to look at some customer’s PC I always find myself thinking, “This is a damned nightmare.”
For me, there's usually a standout spec that is better for the job. I do a lot of development and and testing, and I use VM's for a lot of it, so I need something I can either get more RAM to begin with, or can expand it myself, that is a big want. I'm sure other jobs have similar niche needs, even above OS.
I do kind of fudge it to justify Macs at home, but wanting something different comes in to it for me too, and I need to see the specs to decide if whatever will do what I want it to do..
You are in a particular situation. First, you consider that a 14.2" laptop with 8GB RAM has similar specs to a 15.6" laptop with 16GB RAM and second, you can buy them at a worse price than some here, especially the Dell laptop. For most people, Dell XPS 15 is much cheaper than M3 MBP.
You have never told us what review made you feel upset enough to start this thread. Meanwhile, I found a review of a MacBook Pro 14 comparing it to the XPS 15, the conclusion of which is:
MacBook Pro 14 M3 Max vs. Dell XPS 15: totally outclassed | Digital Trends
The Dell XPS 15 is a very good laptop for creating on the go. But the Apple MacBook Pro 14 is simply in another class entirely.
www.digitaltrends.com
Does this type of reviews really bother you?
I bought my first computer when I was just out of high school in 1977. I've used many different OS's and hardware, and I love them all, but how I make money is with Windows (and IBM i), so I do kind of gravitate to most of my machines being Windows. (but not all!)
I'm just a computer geek, always have been -- that first machine I bought wasn't the first machine I used, it was the 4th. Dec PDP-8e, PDP-8a, then an 8008.
You are in a particular situation. First, you consider that a 14.2" laptop with 8GB RAM has similar specs to a 15.6" laptop with 16GB RAM and second, you can buy them at a worse price than some here, especially the Dell laptop. For most people, Dell XPS 15 is much cheaper than M3 MBP.
You have never told us what review made you feel upset enough to start this thread. Meanwhile, I found a review of a MacBook Pro 14 comparing it to the XPS 15, the conclusion of which is:
MacBook Pro 14 M3 Max vs. Dell XPS 15: totally outclassed | Digital Trends
The Dell XPS 15 is a very good laptop for creating on the go. But the Apple MacBook Pro 14 is simply in another class entirely.
Does this type of reviews really bother you?
To some degree it does bother me. What’s the point of reviewing two very different machines and concluding that the maxed out MBP is a portable workstation and the XPS can’t touch it however the XPS is one of the best laptop Windows have to offer. Really? Is this very insightful? Wouldn’t it be more productive to compare the XPS to a similarly priced Windows laptop? And compare the MBP against something that’s slightly cheaper and quantify performance gains per dollar? Wouldn’t that be more beneficial to a general consumer?
You would pay more money for a slower, bulkier laptop with worse display and battery life just because it allows RAM upgrades? Like… why?
You've been advocating that a laptop is more than its spec figures, and now you're in favor of a comparison that reduces laptops to performance/price figures?
It is more than just spec figures only when you’re comparing cross platform. When you’re comparing between two MacBooks; say M2 Pro base vs M3 base - you can come up with a reasonable conclusion as to why someone should get one over the other.