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Rozovici

macrumors member
May 9, 2021
40
12
Trying another 2K (2560x1440 native res.) monitor will not make any difference as long as you are not getting HiDPI and you try to run in 1:1 scaling.

Anyway I've been using my Dell U2518D for few days at 2560x1440 (1:1 resolution) and I have made some interesting findings. There is absolutely no problem with graphics elements like icons and pictures, they are sharp as knife with my U2518D. The issue lies in system fonts and depending on situations it wary from tolerable to horrible.

Just a simple test to prove that open TextEdit and change default font to Courier New and you will see it is sharp as a knife with 2560x1440 monitor! So I guess one way to avoid this problem with 2K monitor would be to change system font to something else, I guess. Not sure if it is possible and where to find some more modern font than Courier New which would look look in 2K monitors too for that purpose? But as I said this problem mostly occurs with certain system fonts, and for example browsing this forum using Safari gives nice looking fonts with 2K monitor. Anyway, probably easiest solution would be to get 5K monitor, or perhaps 4K but not sure how it looks if you want to use better than 1920x1080 "looks like mode" since I find that way too low these days and I want at least 2560x1440 "looks like mode" and that would be 1.5x scaling using 4K monitor and probably introduce all kinds of anti aliasing look issues and probably more GPU load than using 5K monitor at same resolution where it would just using simple 2x scaling.

Anyone here using 4K monitor in sizes about 25" to 27" with 2560x1440 looks like resolution and how fonts look and is there a lot of scaling issues I mentioned compared to 1920x1080 with the same monitor?
Also any suggestions about 4K monitor that is able to produced full P3 gamut? Most seem to be way below 100% P3 gamut.
I just moved from Windows to macOS and I'm still learning things about this new OS. Considering all of this I have to ask: 2K monitors never worked with MacOS? I am the "funny one" being so surprised at the crappy result when using an external monitor with a MacBook? Or is it an issue that arrived with the new Big Sur OS? Would be great to understand if I can wait with my 2K monitor or if it's mandatory to upgrade to a 5K monitor. Also, I have to ask: 4K monitor will have also a slight disruptive scaling?
If you know can you please suggest to me a good guide on HiDPI, how it works and what should I do?
Thanks for all the help.
 
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AlphaCentauri

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2019
291
457
Norwich, United Kingdom
I just moved from Windows to macOS and I'm still learning things about this new OS. Considering all of this I have to ask: 2K monitors never worked with MacOS? I am the "funny one" being so surprised at the crappy result when using an external monitor with a MacBook? Or is it an issue that arrived with the new Big Sur OS? Would be great to understand if I can wait with my 2K monitor or if it's mandatory to upgrade to a 5K monitor. Also, I have to ask: 4K monitor will have also a slight disruptive scaling?
If you know can you please suggest to me a good guide on HiDPI, how it works and what should I do?
Thanks for all the help.

It used to be OK. They’ve changed font rendering around the time Mojave was introduced (or was it Catalina). HiDPI is also gaining popularity in Windows word, but it was Apple who popularised it, after giving it fancy name (Retina display). Windows is more compatible with old displays (it has to be, because of huge user base in comparison to Mac), whereas Apple thinks the future is with Retina. They sort of neglected how MacOS looks like on non-retina displays, I mean it does work, but it looks like crap.

Now, as I said before, Apple doesn’t have a single product without Retina display. iPhone, iPad, iMac, MacBooks, and external displays Apple sells are all Retina and they will not go back on this.

Don’t worry about scaling, with M1 this is non issue. Just buy any 4K, 5K or 5K2K display (preferably from a place with good return policy), choose one of HiDPI modes and see for yourself how beautiful and amazingly sharp everything looks like. 144 Hz is for gaming anyway and who games on a Mac? :cool:
 

Rozovici

macrumors member
May 9, 2021
40
12
It used to be OK. They’ve changed font rendering around the time Mojave was introduced (or was it Catalina). HiDPI is also gaining popularity in Windows word, but it was Apple who popularised it, after giving it fancy name (Retina display). Windows is more compatible with old displays (it has to be, because huge user base in comparison to Mac), whereas Apple thinks the future is with Retina. They sort of neglected how MacOS looks like on non-retina displays, I mean it does work, but it looks like crap.

Now, as I said before, Apple doesn’t have a single product without Retina display. iPhone, iPad, iMac, MacBooks, and external displays Apple sells are all Retina and they will not go back.

Don’t worry about scaling, with M1 this is non issue. Just buy any 4K, 5K or 5K2K display (preferably from a place with good return policy), choose one of HiDPI modes and see for yourself how beautiful and amazingly sharp everything looks like. 144 Hz is for gaming anyway and who games on a Mac? :cool:
You've been a great help and calming factor for me xD I decided to give up on the 144 hz obsession because, as you also said, i wont game anymore on this machine. Looking for a 32 4K replacement. I will do my research and buy it. I found 5K monitors but they are a bit out of the budget for me atm. If you got any suggestions, im more than opened.
 

AlphaCentauri

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2019
291
457
Norwich, United Kingdom
You've been a great help and calming factor for me xD I decided to give up on the 144 hz obsession because, as you also said, i wont game anymore on this machine. Looking for a 32 4K replacement. I will do my research and buy it. I found 5K monitors but they are a bit out of the budget for me atm. If you got any suggestions, im more than opened.

No problem, always happy to help. I’ve been using Macs for 20 years now and I’ve learned that with Apple, one just have to go with the (Apple’s) flow. Going against the flow is usually “a bag of hurt” (that’s from Steve Jobs), which you’ve experienced yourself ;)

As for 32 inch 4K, 2x HiDPI “looks like” 1920x1080 so it will probably look too big (depending on how close you sit to the screen) so I would go with “looks like” 2560x1440, which will give you good screen estate and crispness of font rendering. The impact of 1.5 scaling on M1 GPU should be negligible.

As for brands: LG and Dell are always good bets, Acer is also fine, in my experience.
 

Rozovici

macrumors member
May 9, 2021
40
12
No problem, always happy to help. I’ve been using Macs for 20 years now and I’ve learned that with Apple, one just have to go with the (Apple’s) flow. Going against the flow is usually “a bag of hurt” (that’s from Steve Jobs), which you’ve experienced yourself ;)

As for 32 inch 4K, 2x HiDPI “looks like” 1920x1080 so it will probably look too big (depending on how close you sit to the screen) so I would go with “looks like” 2560x1440, which give you good screen estate and crispness of font rendering. The impact of 1.5 scaling for M1 GPU should be negligible.

As for brands: LG and Dell are always good bets, Acer is also fine, in my experience.
My eyes are on

Dell S3221QS
AOC U3277PWQU
LG 32UN500-W.AEU


What would you choose from those 3?
 

xraydoc

Contributor
Oct 9, 2005
11,023
5,485
192.168.1.1
As for 32 inch 4K, 2x HiDPI “looks like” 1920x1080 so it will probably look too big (depending on how close you sit to the screen) so I would go with “looks like” 2560x1440, which will give you good screen estate and crispness of font rendering. The impact of 1.5 scaling on M1 GPU should be negligible.
I'm using a 32" 4K at 'looks like' 3008x1692 and it looks fantastic, gives me a ton of space, and the UI is about pretty close in size as is 2560x1440 on a 27" display.
And like you said, the impact of the odd-number scaling with the M1 is essentially nil.
 

AlphaCentauri

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2019
291
457
Norwich, United Kingdom
My eyes are on

Dell S3221QS
AOC U3277PWQU
LG 32UN500-W.AEU


What would you choose from those 3?

Dell is curved, you will need DisplayPort to USB-C adapter, otherwise fine.
AOC is really old model, you will need adapter as above, nice design.
LG has USB-C so no need for an adapter, just USB-C to USB-C cable

I would go with LG myself, Dell is nice but I don’t like curved screens.
 

Rozovici

macrumors member
May 9, 2021
40
12
I will go with Dell as my monitor at the moment is also a curved dell and im very pleased with it. Hopefully the blurr problems will be in the past, now. Tomorrow i’ll get the new monitor.
 
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Spungoflex

macrumors 6502
Oct 30, 2012
388
488
It used to be OK. They’ve changed font rendering around the time Mojave was introduced (or was it Catalina). HiDPI is also gaining popularity in Windows word, but it was Apple who popularised it, after giving it fancy name (Retina display). Windows is more compatible with old displays (it has to be, because of huge user base in comparison to Mac), whereas Apple thinks the future is with Retina. They sort of neglected how MacOS looks like on non-retina displays, I mean it does work, but it looks like crap.

Now, as I said before, Apple doesn’t have a single product without Retina display. iPhone, iPad, iMac, MacBooks, and external displays Apple sells are all Retina and they will not go back on this.

Don’t worry about scaling, with M1 this is non issue. Just buy any 4K, 5K or 5K2K display (preferably from a place with good return policy), choose one of HiDPI modes and see for yourself how beautiful and amazingly sharp everything looks like. 144 Hz is for gaming anyway and who games on a Mac? :cool:

Apple still sells a 1080p iMac model with a dual-core 7th gen Intel chip inside. That is outright criminal, especially after removing subpixel anti-aliasing.

The worst thing about Macs is the hassle of finding a suitable external monitor. It's like hunting for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.
 

AlphaCentauri

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2019
291
457
Norwich, United Kingdom
Apple still sells a 1080p iMac model with a dual-core 7th gen Intel chip inside. That is outright criminal, especially after removing subpixel anti-aliasing.

The worst thing about Macs is the hassle of finding a suitable external monitor. It's like hunting for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

Do they still sell those as entry model? Probably not for long with M1 transition going on. They will phase those out soon, I’m sure. Anyway, this model is a noble exception from general rule ;)

You are absolutely right in regards of subpixel aliasing and I said I think Apple is in the wrong with this.

However, choosing external monitor (in order to have sharp, crisp text) for Mac is simple:

1. One needs to use HiDPI mode
2. Any 4K, 5K or 5K2K monitor will do
3. Choose screen size and brand

Done :cool:
 
Last edited:

Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
It used to be OK. They’ve changed font rendering around the time Mojave was introduced (or was it Catalina). HiDPI is also gaining popularity in Windows word, but it was Apple who popularised it, after giving it fancy name (Retina display). Windows is more compatible with old displays (it has to be, because of huge user base in comparison to Mac), whereas Apple thinks the future is with Retina. They sort of neglected how MacOS looks like on non-retina displays, I mean it does work, but it looks like crap.

This is accurate, although some of the issues that led to the change pre-dated Mojave.

The issue is that Apple's GPU compositor on MacOS cannot handle sub pixel AA if the background behind the text isn't opaque. This has been true since CoreAnimation was added way back in 10.5. Prior to Mojave, projects I worked on made sure text layers always had opaque backgrounds, or we'd disable sub pixel AA for the layer if we couldn't guarantee an opaque background.

With Mojave and dark mode, so much more of the UI sits on translucent layers, making sub pixel AA look worse than it did in High Sierra, especially in dark mode where colors from the desktop wallpaper leak through into app windows. So Apple very likely disabled sub pixel AA because of this. The HiDPI/Retina displays don't really lose much without sub pixel AA, and you get more consistent blending behaviors. But yes, non-HiDPI displays suffer because of this decision.

The worst thing about Macs is the hassle of finding a suitable external monitor. It's like hunting for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

Agreed. Or you just get used to the lack of subpixel-AA eventually (it took me months).
 
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Bob418

macrumors member
Sep 10, 2015
69
51
Singapore
Do they still sell those as entry model? Probably not for long with M1 transition going on. They will phase those out soon, I’m sure. Anyway, this model is a noble exception from general rule ;)

You are absolutely right in regards of subpixel aliasing and I said I think Apple is in the wrong with this.

However, choosing external monitor (in order to have sharp, crisp text) for Mac is simple:

1. One needs to use HiDPI mode
2. Any 4K, 5K or 5K2K monitor will do
3. Choose screen size and brand

Done :cool:
For M1, 5K2K is not a good option due to its 3008 (6016) horizontal resolution limitation, which will make font size too big on those ultrawide screen.
 

airbatross

macrumors member
Sep 13, 2018
51
85
Sydney, AU
I gave up.. I'm selling my U2520D and just came back home with LG Ultrafine 4K:D
I can't believe my eyes and what I've been missing so far.. This marks the end of all my miseries..

You're right @AlphaCentauri there's really no point of going in your own direction, this is not Windows world. You do/buy what Apple store sells, period :D
 
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Rozovici

macrumors member
May 9, 2021
40
12
Do they still sell those as entry model? Probably not for long with M1 transition going on. They will phase those out soon, I’m sure. Anyway, this model is a noble exception from general rule ;)

You are absolutely right in regards of subpixel aliasing and I said I think Apple is in the wrong with this.

However, choosing external monitor (in order to have sharp, crisp text) for Mac is simple:

1. One needs to use HiDPI mode
2. Any 4K, 5K or 5K2K monitor will do
3. Choose screen size and brand

Done :cool:
I actually did a little bit mroe researche and changed my mind again. i will stick with the IPS 32UN650. It doesnt have a USB C port but i already have a very quality USB C - DisplayPort cable that is capable of 60Hz 4k
 
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Donza

macrumors regular
Nov 14, 2006
201
97
Finland
11.4 betas have started to again make my monitor drop out from RGB mode. Hopefully Apple wont break again something they already once fixed at least for my Dell monitor.

Third beta that I installed this morning looks to be so far keeping RGB mode on. ?
 

0906742

Cancelled
Apr 11, 2018
2,313
613
11.4 betas have started to again make my monitor drop out from RGB mode. Hopefully Apple wont break again something they already once fixed at least for my Dell monitor.

Third beta that I installed this morning looks to be so far keeping RGB mode on. 🤞
Interesting since my U2518D has been changing daily with 11.3.1. It is just purely luck which mode it boots and then just restarting or power off / on usually results going in RGB mode but sometimes I even need to power down my monitor too and then it usually takes several tries to get RGB mode.

I guess problem lies somewhere in OS and the way it interprets EDID it reads from display. I just can't understand why vary??

Anyway tweaking font smoothing I find my current 2K monitor is tolerable since I mostly just browse web using Safari with this machine and there font is about OK. I probably get Dell U2720Q 4K some point if or when I have more use for this machine but not sure it works with USB-C & M1 Mini in RGB mode at all that way and also I'm not sure 4K monitor will be so good as I will need 2560x1440 looks like mode which is 1.5x scaling and bad choice generally (2x would be the best compromise).
 
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xraydoc

Contributor
Oct 9, 2005
11,023
5,485
192.168.1.1
I give up as well and have just ordered the 43" Dell 4K Monitor with USB-C and DisplayPort. Hope that works.
That's a BIG display. Mostly designed so you can use 4K at native resolution at 1:1 pixel mapping and have readable (size-wise) text, or to display 4x 1080p screens at the time time.

At 43" and 4K, this display only has 102 DPI.

But do let us know what you think when it arrives!
 

xraydoc

Contributor
Oct 9, 2005
11,023
5,485
192.168.1.1
Can anyone recommend the best cable? Is it USB-C to USB-C or USB-C to Displayport?
They're functionally the same insofar as carrying an image (both will carry DP1.4) but the USB-C connection can also provide power to the laptop, presuming the monitor supports that function, and can also carry USB data for USB ports on the display.
 

SpitUK

macrumors 6502a
Mar 5, 2010
896
818
East Yorkshire, UK
Thanks. I have been using a Samsung 4K 43” TV for the last couple of years with my windows PC. Moving to the Mac Mini M1 resulted in the horrible image quality as the TV is HDMI only. The Dell should be nice as it has the proper inputs, IPS and the M1 should detect it as a monitor.
 

11235813

macrumors regular
Apr 14, 2021
144
226
I'm looking to upgrade to a 4K monitor from my current 1080p monitor which I occasionally use as an external screen with my M1 Air. This thread confused me a little. Are all 4K monitors HiDPI compatible? Can I buy just any 4K monitor or are some of them not compatible with macOS HiDPI? What's more, what if the monitor doesn't work as RGB and uses YPBPR instead? I don't want to buy something and return immediately if it doesn't work well. Is there a list of approved 4K monitors that work totally OK with Macs?
 
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