M1 Pro and M1 Max CPU Temperature Forewarning

[TimmuJapan]

But don't take it from me..... Take it from intel:
last sentence from the link below,
"....PC cooling isn’t just good practice. It’s also important for getting the best performance from your build, and for potentially increasing the lifespan of your components."

https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...g-the-importance-of-keeping-your-pc-cool.html

 

[TimmuJapan]

I had no idea that there were so many people who are so passionate about running their CPUs at 100 C all day, every day. This has been a very enlightening conversation. ?

 

[throAU]

My MBP 2011's hard drive finally crashed after weeks and weeks of highly intensive tasks at the start of the COVID pandemic. It was constantly hot as h%ll, and at the end of a two week period, the hard drive died.

The expected life for a hard drive is 3-4 years average, normally distributed. By 5+ years you're well into expected failure zone. Failure rate is initially high (manufacturing defect) and levels out until year 4 plus where it starts to climb. This is why warranty is typically 3 years.

If you're talking a drive from 2011 dying in 2020, it died because it was old.

 

[TimmuJapan]

The expected life for a hard drive is 3-4 years average, normally distributed. By 5+ years you're well into expected failure zone.

If you're talking a drive from 2011 dying in 2020, it died because it was old.

It died because it was old, while it was extremely hot for several weeks.
I have other drives that are older, that never died, and were never exposed to that prolonged heat....

 

[throAU]

I had no idea that there were so many people who are so passionate about running their CPUs at 100 C all day, every day. This has been a very enlightening conversation. ?

Its a trade off of speeds vs. noise vs. heat.

Every OEM is in the same boat, and every OEM's processor is rated to operate just fine to >100C (normally 105 ish).

 

[throAU]

It died because it was old, while it was extremely hot for several weeks.
I have other drives that are older, that never died, and were never exposed to that prolonged heat....

Correlation != causation.

I have younger drives that were never exposed to heat (in a low power NAS) die after 3, 5, 6 and 7 years.

 

[TimmuJapan]

Correlation != causation.

I have younger drives that were never exposed to heat (in a low power NAS) die after 3, 5, 6 and 7 years.

I agree that correlation doesn’t equal causation, but like I said, I’ll air on the side of caution, and stick with intel’s advice on this one…… Keyword being “potentially.”

"....PC cooling isn’t just good practice. It’s also important for getting the best performance from your build, and for potentially increasing the lifespan of your components."

https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...g-the-importance-of-keeping-your-pc-cool.html

 

[throAU]

I agree that correlation doesn’t equal causation, but like I said, I’ll air on the side of caution, and stick with intel’s advice on this one…… Keyword being “potentially.”

"....PC cooling isn’t just good practice. It’s also important for getting the best performance from your build, and for potentially increasing the lifespan of your components."

https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...g-the-importance-of-keeping-your-pc-cool.html

Yeah I'm not saying cooling is bad. I'm saying the machines are in spec, and saying "the CPU is about to melt" when they're running within spec is... disingenuous.

They're designed to be quiet; running at 100C or less with no fan is by design. If the fan is needed, it will activate.

If you want to make your machine run noisier, go for it I guess, but it is not required.

 

[TimmuJapan]

Yeah I'm not saying cooling is bad. I'm saying the machines are in spec, and saying "the CPU is about to melt" when they're running within spec is... disingenuous.

"the CPU is about to melt"
Where did I write that, dude?

 

[throAU]

"the CPU is about to melt"
Where did I write that, dude?

The OP did, which is why I was posting in this thread.

 

[oz_rkie]

If you can point me to an article somewhere where a non-hobbyist is using overclocking in a serious way, for more than a YouTube headline, I'd be interested to see what they've found

You wanted articles with non-hobbyists using overclocking in a serious way. I gave just some of many such varied articles you can easily find. If you want to ignore it and nit pick, go right ahead.

So changing from default isn't giving you even the 5-10% improvement you quoted, but it does mean you need to change the settings differently for different situations, as I suggested

Again, best not to make conclusions about stuff you potentially don't know a lot about. In pretty much all serious cloud workloads you infrastructure is defined as code which you can instantiate automatically for your given workload. You are not manually changing settings each time.

My initial post was essentially about overclocking in the context of having the tools to tune your system to your liking and potentially create more thermal headroom for a chip to do more, and the only thing I wanted to respond to you when you said 'that having options hurts you' which to me is just silly. Just because stuff is confusing to use for you or you may not find it worthwhile does not mean it is the same for others, and expecting or wanting companies to dumb down their software just to appease the casuals is not good for the industry in the long run. That's all. I never said you SHOULD overclock or under-volt or anything. Feel free to use your system at stock, its perfectly fine to do so, most consumers do, but probably stop spewing utter BS claiming that adding options hurts users. Its in the word 'option' meaning optional.

 

[Analog Kid]

You wanted articles with non-hobbyists using overclocking in a serious way. I gave just some of many such varied articles you can easily find. If you want to ignore it and nit pick, go right ahead.

Fair enough. You followed the letter of my comment rather than the spirit, but I probably wasn't clear. Like I said, I did enjoy the reads and was interested in what they found-- they just aren't terribly relevant to the conversation. I guess I'd say what MS is doing is "overclocking the processor", running it at a clock higher than their processor is spec'd for a given TDP, and what you're talking about is "overclocking the system", running the assembly at a clock higher than the manufacturer designed it for. The latter is what you're asking for from Apple.

Again, diversion was my fault. I should have been more clear in what I was getting at.

My initial post was essentially about overclocking in the context of having the tools to tune your system to your liking and potentially create more thermal headroom for a chip to do more

Which I keep telling you over and over again, Apple provides, but you strategically keep cropping around those comments when I make them...

but probably stop spewing utter BS claiming that adding options hurts users. Its in the word 'option' meaning optional.

Ok, I'll stop expressing an opinion different than yours. From the hostility you show to alternate viewpoints, it's obvious you find it triggering.

 

[oz_rkie]

I guess I'd say what MS is doing is "overclocking the processor", running it at a clock higher than their processor is spec'd for a given TDP, and what you're talking about is "overclocking the system", running the assembly at a clock higher than the manufacturer designed it for. The latter is what you're asking for from Apple

I am talking about overclocking in the context of overclocking cpu/gpu. Not sure where you infer 'running the assembly at a higher clock' from. I am not even sure what you mean by that?

Ok, I'll stop expressing an opinion different than yours. From the hostility you show to alternate viewpoints, it's obvious you find it triggering.

It's the other way around, since you seem to just keep ignoring all the valid alternate use cases that people make of overclocking. You seem to think that 5-10% of free performance is not worth it, and maybe its not to you but you seem to dismiss anyone who sees it as valuable claiming they are just hobbyist or parroting youtubers. In pretty much every post of mine, I've emphasized that its totally FINE to not overclock and use your machine at stock as is (go and re-read if you missed it) but on the other hand you are the one who has dismissed alternate viewpoints every time. I don't even have to go to Microsoft or Amazon to find 'real' uses. You can find plenty of 'real' use cases for overclocking and not just hobbyists if you but try.

Anyhow, I am done with this conversation. Clearly you are someone who refuses to accept that others might use their computers differently than you. Have a nice day.

 

[Analog Kid]

I am talking about overclocking in the context of overclocking cpu/gpu. Not sure where you infer 'running the assembly at a higher clock' from. I am not even sure what you mean by that?

I mean when you say "Apple should provide more options", you mean that they should provide options to reconfigure the system, not that they should sell the M1 as a component that Microsoft or Amazon can mount to a circuit board of their own and boil in liquid coolant. The Apple system is designed to be clocked at a certain rate. Microsoft is overclocking a component.

It's the other way around, since you seem to just keep ignoring all the valid alternate use cases that people make of overclocking.

I don't think so... I think I was pretty clear that you use your hardware different than I do, which is fine. My point was simply that I don't want my experience degraded to support your use case. I do think your use case affects a minority of users, but maybe you can find me something that says otherwise.

you seem to dismiss anyone who sees it as valuable claiming they are just hobbyist or parroting youtubers

Absolutely not. I said "often, as in this case", not "always", not even "usually". This thread started with someone who doesn't understand the thermal design of the M1-- that seems relevant here. Frankly your comments about running it colder leave me unsure if you do, but you clearly have some hands on experience and I very sincerely was not referring to you.

You seem to think that 5-10% of free performance is not worth it,

That's right. I don't. I also don't think it's free.

Clearly you are someone who refuses to accept that others might use their computers differently than you.

You're just not reading what I'm saying... I'm being pretty explicit that other people do things differently, but I have my priorities that I'd like to not have compromised.

I think we obviously have different approaches to our hardware. I'd expect that, that's why there's options out there. But, while I understand that you're happy there are systems that let you tweak all the different parameters to see what you can squeeze out, I'd ask you to understand that there are people like me who want to keep things as simple as possible.

There's not anything wrong with that-- people have been hot rodding cars for decades because they enjoy it.

Anyway, nothing about your opinion of overclocking or options offends me. I hope it doesn't come to pass, but it doesn't offend me. Your opinion of me, however, is not worth arguing over any longer...

 

[satcomer]

Video editors, and anyone using their M1 Pro or Max for anything processor heavy, be careful about your temps!

For some reason, the MacOS lets your CPU cores get up over 100C before any fans really kick in...This is with my power settings set to automatic. They were just sitting there at 1600RPM and the CPU is about to melt. For reference, each left and right fan can max at 5400RPM. They should have at least cranked to 50-70% when getting over 85C. Take a look at these temps during a video render...Too hot for me.

I just downloaded TG Pro and have set a nice fan curve. I still let things get warm (80C), before cranking on the fans, because I like things quiet. But 100C is just way too hot for me. Temps are much more controlled now and I highly recommend that application. View attachment 1967191 View attachment 1967192

You should’t run all those Intel only apps! That’s why your seeing these high temps! Besides just running video crunching all the time will do that too!

 

[kissmyasthma]

Presumably those are degrees Fahrenheit, in which case it is barely warm.
If they are Celsius you would be having a meltdown

Yes. You're correct. Here's the Celsius version

 

[mr_roboto]

Okay, well, there is an easy solution to this debate-- @mr_roboto , just let your hardware bake and bake, run at 100 C for long, long stretches each day, year after year after year.... and after 10 years, please dig up this post, and let us know how your hardware is doing.... You seem enthusiastic about letting your computer run at 100 C, non-stop, fans barely kicking in, for years and years--so I say, go for it, dude! Rock that hot CPU, work it to the bone non-stop, cook that laptop of yours, and let us know how it is doing after 10 years.... Better still, give us an update after 5 years. I hope that this laptop gives you many years of productivity, joy and titillating, warm thighs. Whether or not it dies after a few years, it will definitely keep you warm on those cold winter nights, so that will be a plus either way.

I have a late 2013 15" Retina MacBook Pro (i7-4850HQ + GeForce GT 750M) which spent a lot of time with its CPU and GPU at high temps, as allowing CPUs and GPUs to get close to the upper end of their operating temp rating has been Apple's design philosophy for a very long time. It's still running fine. It did get relegated to light duty in fall 2020 since I got a M1 Air which was far faster in every regard, but before that it was my daily computer. Is that good enough for you?

By changing the topic, it seems you've quietly conceded that you don't actually know why your equipment failed. Unless you did some failure analysis you aren't telling us about?

 

[mr_roboto]

Search for "polymer electrolytic capacitor" on Digikey and you get nothing

https://www.digikey.com/en/products...BwPYBsBPOAUyUxPxIGM0kDC0BLazalbFaptXJEALoBfIA

You have to search for "polymer capacitor" and under type it even says polymer.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products...YFcBOBDALigBABwPYBsBPOAUyUwGMVsUKBLNXJEAXQF8g

If you don't think temperature plays a role open your eyes and look at "lifetime @ temp" column. Majority are 1000 hours @ 105C. What do you think happens at >105C? It shortens lifetime or pops. Basic stuff even a hobbyist knows.

hey mi7chy

have you heard of the concept of "shorthand"

also

if you click your second link

and then click the very first cap in the listing, ECASD41E336M040KA0

and then click the PDF datasheet

guess what you'll see

https://imgur.com/z9NxYNG

also

if you'd paid any attention at all

you'd know that i'm not saying caps should run at 100C

and that i don't think a CPU die junction temp reading of 100C implies that caps are at 100C

please put some more effort into your trolls tyvm

 

[mi7chy]

I have a late 2013 15" Retina MacBook Pro (i7-4850HQ + GeForce GT 750M) which spent a lot of time with its CPU and GPU at high temps, as allowing CPUs and GPUs to get close to the upper end of their operating temp rating has been Apple's design philosophy for a very long time. It's still running fine. It did get relegated to light duty in fall 2020 since I got a M1 Air which was far faster in every regard, but before that it was my daily computer.

I would think a "real engineer" that thinks he knows more than Digikey can upgrade more often than waiting seven years and to entry M1 instead of M1 Max? Time is money to any engineer worth his salt so they tend to upgrade more frequently and to top specs.

 

[mr_roboto]

Be careful, he will throw more wikipedia links at you . Apparently the goto resource for Engineers.

It's a decent resource for trying to educate the ignorant about the basics. Finding the wiki page and skimming to make sure there's not much misinformation in it is much faster than digging up my undergrad textbooks and taking pictures of the relevant pages. I'm not going to put much more effort in than that as mi7chy quite evidently isn't even bothering to read or comprehend those wikipedia articles.

 

[januarydrive7]

... I'm not going to put much more effort in than that as mi7chy quite evidently isn't even bothering to read or comprehend those wikipedia articles.

I'm convinced they are either incapable of comprehension, or simply trolling for the sake of trolling.

I would think a "real engineer" that thinks he knows more than Digikey can upgrade more often than waiting seven years and to entry M1 instead of M1 Max?

oh boy

 

[mr_roboto]

I would think a "real engineer" that thinks he knows more than Digikey can upgrade more often than waiting seven years and to entry M1 instead of M1 Max?

LOL. I see we're deep in the "gotta find a win somewhere, anywhere" phase of a bad troll.

Digikey has already been addressed - you actually proved my point for me with that link.

As for not buying a computer every year: so cool of you to infer someone must be of low economic status if they don't conspicuously consume, and use that as a weapon against them. What a magnificent person you are.

But for the record, even though I actually could have bought a new computer every year, I didn't find any of the Intel MBPs past the 2013 compelling enough to upgrade. The 2014 and 2015 were relatively minor spec bumps, and starting with the 2016 models, Apple had several years of a problematic keyboard I did not want, and the Touch Bar, which I also did not want.

And: Pay better attention. I mentioned buying a M1 Air in fall 2020. M1 Max was not an option then. I knew I'd probably end up replacing it because 13" is not a big enough display for me. That's exactly what happened; I have a 16" M1 Max now.

 

[oz_rkie]

I mean when you say "Apple should provide more options", you mean that they should provide options to reconfigure the system, not that they should sell the M1 as a component that Microsoft or Amazon can mount to a circuit board of their own and boil in liquid coolant. The Apple system is designed to be clocked at a certain rate. Microsoft is overclocking a component.

What in the world are you blabbing on about. You should take some reading comprehension classes.

 

[januarydrive7]

... I didn't find any of the Intel MBPs past the 2013 compelling enough to upgrade. The 2014 and 2015 were relatively minor spec bumps, and starting with the 2016 models, Apple had several years of a problematic keyboard I did not want, and the Touch Bar, which I also did not want.

Similar sentiment --- I kept with my 2012 mbp (top spec, replaced 16gb ram, 1tb ssd) until it presumably died in q4 2019. The 2019 16" mbp I daily now is a nice upgrade in many respects, but had I realized liquid damage was the issue in the first place, I would probably still be driving my 2012 at least until I finish my dissertation.

 

[throAU]

I would think a "real engineer" that thinks he knows more than Digikey can upgrade more often than waiting seven years and to entry M1 instead of M1 Max? Time is money to any engineer worth his salt so they tend to upgrade more frequently and to top specs.

Lol.

I know a "real engineer" (i.e., using his profession for money) who until recently was using a 2011 iMac.

Why? Because it did the job for what he was using it for, and moving everything over to another machine for no benefit was a waste of time and money.