Yes. You should immediately douse your MBA in deionized water. Make sure it is truly deionized - not even one ion.
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M1Max running HOT
- Thread starter Havelock_Vetinari
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Keep in mind that electromigration is something we account for in designing the chip. In fact, I wrote the tool we used at AMD. It is primarily an issue for wires and vias where current flows only in one direction. In modern chips, which use static logic, this is very rare. The wires where it is a problem (typically analog circuits like PLLs, amps, etc.) are designed to accommodate sufficiently high unidirectional current by being appropriately sized.
For older chips, where dynamic logic was used, or other forms of logic other than CMOS, this was a much bigger problem.
Not new. Fundamental property of silicon.
You worry more about the wires than the transistors, but the wires aren’t so much a problem any more since most circuits became static CMOS circuits (I think Intel was still using some dynamic logic in their ALUs in the mid 1990’s, but I assume by now that most folks have stopped).
So the real reason you worry about temperature nowadays is the package solder and the fact that your transistors get slower as the temperature goes up. nVidia had a famous package solder issue with MBPs back a decade or so ago, for example.
My M1 MBA hit 118C one time running a UTM x86 VM, but I'm not worried, it may have shortened the life some, but not enough to worry about it. I've seen processors here at work that last decades in really harsh conditions. Heat related throttling is more of a concern for me. (I hate getting annoyed!)
It’s not that the sensors are deeper than the software can reach - obviously not as they’re displaying the data.
But rather it’s that these sensors are buried within the SOC and function as hotspot sensors rather than measuring the average temperature across the chip/SOC. So the temperature will be 10-15 degrees higher than what the latter might tell you (which are more commonly what is measured) and even so, as others have pointed out, these temps are well within standard operating range for modern silicon.
Imagine that a near silent high performance laptop. The likes of which was only in our dreams.
It's cutting it a bit close, but up to about 100C should be fine.
Have you by any chance tried to enable High Power mode? According to Apple it allows the fans to run at higher speed which should either lower the temperatures or increase performance (e.g. the encoding frame rate in Handbrake). I'd be curious what you actually see.
I have been building my own computers since the time Yahoo was still a thing, and this is simply not true. For example, in my latest build I put in an AMD Ryzen 5800X, which has a Tjmax of 90C. No one would be throttling a CPU at 90C if it could run just fine and trouble-free at 100C. Mobile CPUs tend to throttle at even lower temps.
This is Apple's first CPU, so I don't know what you are referencing, maybe Intel? This is a new system and there is nothing really that we could reference it against. Comparing it to an Intel Mac is unfair, as they are simply not the same.
The first thing to fail in the system will be the weakest link. With such sustained temps, every component is affected, as you can see from the screenshot, not just the CPU. Heat is Enemy #1 to anything electric. I can't imagine that keeping your battery toasty wouldn't affect its life, for example.
But I know that the first thing to go would be the thermal paste (or whatever Apple is using), which would in turn lead to higher temps under lower loads, fans would kick in sooner and harder, and it will turn into an Intel MBP
Would the CPU fail within a year or two? I honestly don't know. I personally have never had a computer that ran this hot, ever. And I've done my fair share of overclocking and liquid cooling. There is just not enough information and telling me that Apple "tested it" is not reassuring. Let's not forget that they also tested the iPhone 6, but I guess they "held it a certain way" when they did it
Everything else aside, what I really wish I could find out is whether this is expected behavior with the M1 Max chips (not MBP in general). Since Apple is being so secretive, I really don't know if this is by design or if there is an issue with my MBP. Is anything defective with my laptop, is it a software bug or what? It's frustrating that I can find troves of information on any Intel/AMD cpu, but nothing on the Apple silicone...
I have been building my own computers since the time Yahoo was still a thing, and this is simply not true. For example, in my latest build I put in an AMD Ryzen 5800X, which has a Tjmax of 90C. No one would be throttling a CPU at 90C if it could run just fine and trouble-free at 100C. Mobile CPUs tend to throttle at even lower temps.
This is Apple's first CPU, so I don't know what you are referencing, maybe Intel? This is a new system and there is nothing really that we could reference it against. Comparing it to an Intel Mac is unfair, as they are simply not the same.
The first thing to fail in the system will be the weakest link. With such sustained temps, every component is affected, as you can see from the screenshot, not just the CPU. Heat is Enemy #1 to anything electric. I can't imagine that keeping your battery toasty wouldn't affect its life, for example.
But I know that the first thing to go would be the thermal paste (or whatever Apple is using), which would in turn lead to higher temps under lower loads, fans would kick in sooner and harder, and it will turn into an Intel MBP
Would the CPU fail within a year or two? I honestly don't know. I personally have never had a computer that ran this hot, ever. And I've done my fair share of overclocking and liquid cooling. There is just not enough information and telling me that Apple "tested it" is not reassuring. Let's not forget that they also tested the iPhone 6, but I guess they "held it a certain way" when they did it
Everything else aside, what I really wish I could find out is whether this is expected behavior with the M1 Max chips (not MBP in general). Since Apple is being so secretive, I really don't know if this is by design or if there is an issue with my MBP. Is anything defective with my laptop, is it a software bug or what? It's frustrating that I can find troves of information on any Intel/AMD cpu, but nothing on the Apple silicone...
You’re fine, it’s not a software bug and the computer is operating as intended.
Btw wrt to your long experience in DIY building your computer, the guy you are responding to likely designed the silicon you built your computers with in the days Yahoo was a thing.
Here eventually Anthony still recommends being cautious and turning your fans on to full of your going to really push for a very long time but it is out of overcaution rather than anything substantive. They said the same thing for the regular M1. In that video he says these core temp measurements are 10-15 degrees above what previous CPU sensors would’ve given you based on their placement and again are unlikely to represent a problem.
And with respect to modern AMD:
AMD views Ryzen 5000 CPU temperatures up to 95C as ‘typical and by design’
Higher temps mean Zen 3 can boost higher and longer.
www.google.com
Silicon itself is fine at 100-105 and depending on how other things are designed, likely fine there too - especially since these are hotspot core temps rather than average CPU temps.
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You may be building your own computers, but I build my own CPUs.
The point at which you temperature throttle is the point at which a given temperature at a temperature sensor (which is not necessily on-die) indicates that any timing-critical portion of the chip has a temperature sufficiently high that maximum transistor F-sub-t has decreased.
You are talking about the junction temperature, which is NOT the temperature of the silicon - it is much less than the silicon temperature.
So your 90C Tjmax indicates portions of the CPU are much higher than 90C. As the temperature increases passed 100C, which is the temperature we perform static timing analysis at, the transistors run slower than we modeled. As a result, the CPU frequency must be reduced, otherwise the CPU will not produce the right answers. That does not mean the CPU is damaged - it just means that the maximum clock frequency of a CPU goes down as temperature increases.
You can’t count A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, A9, A10, A11, A12, A13, A14, A15, A12X, A12S, A5X, A8X, A10X, (sorry, my fingers are tired)…
because I said so is why.
The temps are fine. Just think the old Intel machine would get hotter even with blasting fans, the new ones are cooler and silent. It’s a win/win. There’s nothing wrong with high temperatures despite what some PC gamers think. If there was then Apple products would fail at higher rates than other computers which they do not.
id play it safe and just return it if I were you..I have been building my own computers since the time Yahoo was still a thing, and this is simply not true. For example, in my latest build I put in an AMD Ryzen 5800X, which has a Tjmax of 90C. No one would be throttling a CPU at 90C if it could run just fine and trouble-free at 100C. Mobile CPUs tend to throttle at even lower temps.
This is Apple's first CPU, so I don't know what you are referencing, maybe Intel? This is a new system and there is nothing really that we could reference it against. Comparing it to an Intel Mac is unfair, as they are simply not the same.
The first thing to fail in the system will be the weakest link. With such sustained temps, every component is affected, as you can see from the screenshot, not just the CPU. Heat is Enemy #1 to anything electric. I can't imagine that keeping your battery toasty wouldn't affect its life, for example.
But I know that the first thing to go would be the thermal paste (or whatever Apple is using), which would in turn lead to higher temps under lower loads, fans would kick in sooner and harder, and it will turn into an Intel MBP
Would the CPU fail within a year or two? I honestly don't know. I personally have never had a computer that ran this hot, ever. And I've done my fair share of overclocking and liquid cooling. There is just not enough information and telling me that Apple "tested it" is not reassuring. Let's not forget that they also tested the iPhone 6, but I guess they "held it a certain way" when they did it
Everything else aside, what I really wish I could find out is whether this is expected behavior with the M1 Max chips (not MBP in general). Since Apple is being so secretive, I really don't know if this is by design or if there is an issue with my MBP. Is anything defective with my laptop, is it a software bug or what? It's frustrating that I can find troves of information on any Intel/AMD cpu, but nothing on the Apple silicone...
C'mon, man, really? It's not the same and you know it.
False equivalency - just because a chip is throttled in order to avoid errors, does NOT mean it won't be damaged by high temps. I can attest to that, because I have literally fried a couple of chips myself.
Again, I'm not worried that these temps will damage the chip, I don't know if this would be the case. I know, however, that whatever Apple is using to draw the heat from the chip, let's call it "paste", will fail quickly with such temps. Anyone who has owned a MBP for a couple of years could probably relate to this - fans kicking in as soon as you open a browser, can't keep the damn thing on your lap, etc.
Now, for a lot of people this may be acceptable, and that's fine. My experience with non-Apple workstations is that it tends to happen 4-5 years into ownership, by which time technology has advanced enough to justify a new laptop (although you could re-paste it yourself, if you don't want to fork the money).
And there are other components affected by the heat, not just the CPU, most importantly the battery. I just hit the back of the MBP with an infrared thermometer (while under the same load) and the outside of the case is at 112F, with the laptop sitting on a ventilated aluminum stand, not a desk or a lap.
I just don't think it's intended to work like this. I am willing to bet that as more people get their MBPs, the OS will have an update that would tweak the fans behavior. Or not, we are talking about Apple here
I am keeping my screenshots to compare them at some point in the future, though.
It’s literally the same. The M1 is the same architecture.
Opteron, AMD’s server CPU, had 100 million transistors. Core i7-8086K has 3 billion transistors.
Apple’s A14 has 11 billion transistors.
Seems to me that Apple’s A-series processors ”count.”
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And all those A14 servers just powering the Internet these days ? ...It's not about transistors, but use case. How a chip will be used in a tablet (and the requirements that come with it: load, power, thermal, etc.) doesn't even compare to a workstation. I don't even know why I have to say this...
And there are other components affected by the heat, not just the CPU, most importantly the battery. I just hit the back of the MBP with an infrared thermometer (while under the same load) and the outside of the case is at 112F, with the laptop sitting on a ventilated aluminum stand, not a desk or a lap.
I just don't think it's intended to work like this. I am willing to bet that as more people get their MBPs, the OS will have an update that would tweak the fans behavior. Or not, we are talking about Apple here
If you watch the videos in my post above timestamped to the point where they discuss thermals your laptop’s behavior is not abnormal for the new macs and unlikely to be an issue.
M1Max running HOT
You’re fine, it’s not a software bug and the computer is operating as intended. Btw wrt to your long experience in DIY building your computer, the guy you are responding to likely designed the silicon you built your computers with in the days Yahoo was a thing. Here eventually Anthony...
forums.macrumors.com
However if you’d like to play it safe, yes you can tell TG Pro to turn your fans on higher. But again wrt core temps: you are not measuring what you are used to measuring.
Yes the SOC is generally under far higher thermal constraints in phones and tablets without active cooling …
What? You have it backwards.
They run at similar clock frequencies, and power dissipation = C x V squared x frequency. Thermal transfer is a function of the surface area of the transfer surface - there is less room in phones, so they are under higher thermal stress. They also have no active cooling, and more components in close proximity.
It all depends on what you consider "fail".
I've never owned a laptop that failed, as in "push the power button and nothing happens".
If we talk about swollen batteries, unresponsive touch bars, loud fans under light load, too hot to hold on a lap, well, we know about those, don't we? I'm not anti-Apple or pro-something-else (I own Apple stock), but let's just call it like it is.
If anything, I really hope the M1 MBP is a huge success, not only so I can use it without issues, but also get a nice resale value when the time comes!