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LinkRS

macrumors 6502
Oct 16, 2014
402
331
Texas, USA
And each of these temperatures represents the result of heat transfer in (i.e. the thermal energy created by the processor) minus heat transfer out (via conduction and convection). So an Intel part that measures 100C core can only hold to 100C by transferring a lot of heat to your lap. An Apple part measuring 100C is doing so without having to transfer out as much thermal energy, meaning the fan can run more slowly and your lap can remain unblistered.

Hi @cmaier, I have been following this thread with great interest, but this is the first time I feel inclined to post. I don't follow how Apple SOC 100C is not the same as Intel CPU 100C? If the system is heating up to 100C, it has to send it somewhere? The only thing I can think of (I acknowledge that I am just a layperson) is that you are referring to whole system heat output. In my 16" MPB, the CPU may be 95C, but then I also have a dGPU that is putting out 70C along with the other components. In the Apple SOC situation, the majority of the system is *only* running at 100C so overall total is lower? Is this what you mean? Thanks in advance for your time :).
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
Hi @cmaier, I have been following this thread with great interest, but this is the first time I feel inclined to post. I don't follow how Apple SOC 100C is not the same as Intel CPU 100C? If the system is heating up to 100C, it has to send it somewhere? The only thing I can think of (I acknowledge that I am just a layperson) is that you are referring to whole system heat output. In my 16" MPB, the CPU may be 95C, but then I also have a dGPU that is putting out 70C along with the other components. In the Apple SOC situation, the majority of the system is *only* running at 100C so overall total is lower? Is this what you mean? Thanks in advance for your time :).

You don‘t send the 100C anywhere. 100C is a temperature. Temperature is a measure of the average kinetic energy of the molecules of whatever has a temperature. Heat is a transfer of energy. So you have some surface and it has a temperature of 100C. That temperature - that measure of kinetic energy - reflects the transfer of energy into that surface minus the transfer of energy out of that surface.

So, what we see from fan speeds and power ratings of the M1 and Intel CPUs, what is happening is the following:

(1) current drawn by the CPU and used to perform calculations by charging and discharging wires generates heat (due to electrical resistance on the wires and the transistor channels). This heat raises the temperature of the silicon - again, heat is a transfer of thermal energy from one place to another, which increases the average kinetic energy of wherever the transfer is going to (And that average kinetic energy IS the temperature). M1 creates more heat than some Intel chips and less than others. But as compared to comparable performing chips, it generates less heat. So, all else being equal, the temperature of the silicon should be less. BUT…

(2) heat is transferred to the silicon, but, like a lake with an inlet and outlet, heat is also transferred away from the silicon. The amount of thermal energy removed from the silicon is a function of things like the surface area of the package, the dimensions and materials of any heatsink, the dimensions of any fins on the heatsink, the velocity of air moving over the heatsink fins, whether the air flow is turbulant or not, etc. We see that in these MBPs, the fans seem to operate at very low speeds or not at all most of the time.

When heat is transferred away from the silicon, it has to go somewhere - heat is the transfer of thermal energy, and any transfer needs a destination. On Intel macs, this transfer goes to your lap, which gets hot. This would happen on M1 macs, too, but, to achieve a given CPU temperature, less heat needs to be transferred out, so the case gets less hot.

Going back to the lake analogy - the level of the lake is like temperature. Even though Lake M1 has less water coming into it, since the output flow is much less, the level of the lake stays the same as Lake Intel.
 

LinkRS

macrumors 6502
Oct 16, 2014
402
331
Texas, USA
You don‘t send the 100C anywhere. 100C is a temperature. Temperature is a measure of the average kinetic energy of the molecules of whatever has a temperature. Heat is a transfer of energy. So you have some surface and it has a temperature of 100C. That temperature - that measure of kinetic energy - reflects the transfer of energy into that surface minus the transfer of energy out of that surface.

So, what we see from fan speeds and power ratings of the M1 and Intel CPUs, what is happening is the following:

(1) current drawn by the CPU and used to perform calculations by charging and discharging wires generates heat (due to electrical resistance on the wires and the transistor channels). This heat raises the temperature of the silicon - again, heat is a transfer of thermal energy from one place to another, which increases the average kinetic energy of wherever the transfer is going to (And that average kinetic energy IS the temperature). M1 creates more heat than some Intel chips and less than others. But as compared to comparable performing chips, it generates less heat. So, all else being equal, the temperature of the silicon should be less. BUT…

(2) heat is transferred to the silicon, but, like a lake with an inlet and outlet, heat is also transferred away from the silicon. The amount of thermal energy removed from the silicon is a function of things like the surface area of the package, the dimensions and materials of any heatsink, the dimensions of any fins on the heatsink, the velocity of air moving over the heatsink fins, whether the air flow is turbulant or not, etc. We see that in these MBPs, the fans seem to operate at very low speeds or not at all most of the time.

When heat is transferred away from the silicon, it has to go somewhere - heat is the transfer of thermal energy, and any transfer needs a destination. On Intel macs, this transfer goes to your lap, which gets hot. This would happen on M1 macs, too, but, to achieve a given CPU temperature, less heat needs to be transferred out, so the case gets less hot.

Going back to the lake analogy - the level of the lake is like temperature. Even though Lake M1 has less water coming into it, since the output flow is much less, the level of the lake stays the same as Lake Intel.
Thanks @cmaier, I think I get it now. Appreciate it!
 

alien3dx

macrumors 68020
Feb 12, 2017
2,193
524
You don‘t send the 100C anywhere. 100C is a temperature. Temperature is a measure of the average kinetic energy of the molecules of whatever has a temperature. Heat is a transfer of energy. So you have some surface and it has a temperature of 100C. That temperature - that measure of kinetic energy - reflects the transfer of energy into that surface minus the transfer of energy out of that surface.

So, what we see from fan speeds and power ratings of the M1 and Intel CPUs, what is happening is the following:

(1) current drawn by the CPU and used to perform calculations by charging and discharging wires generates heat (due to electrical resistance on the wires and the transistor channels). This heat raises the temperature of the silicon - again, heat is a transfer of thermal energy from one place to another, which increases the average kinetic energy of wherever the transfer is going to (And that average kinetic energy IS the temperature). M1 creates more heat than some Intel chips and less than others. But as compared to comparable performing chips, it generates less heat. So, all else being equal, the temperature of the silicon should be less. BUT…

(2) heat is transferred to the silicon, but, like a lake with an inlet and outlet, heat is also transferred away from the silicon. The amount of thermal energy removed from the silicon is a function of things like the surface area of the package, the dimensions and materials of any heatsink, the dimensions of any fins on the heatsink, the velocity of air moving over the heatsink fins, whether the air flow is turbulant or not, etc. We see that in these MBPs, the fans seem to operate at very low speeds or not at all most of the time.

When heat is transferred away from the silicon, it has to go somewhere - heat is the transfer of thermal energy, and any transfer needs a destination. On Intel macs, this transfer goes to your lap, which gets hot. This would happen on M1 macs, too, but, to achieve a given CPU temperature, less heat needs to be transferred out, so the case gets less hot.

Going back to the lake analogy - the level of the lake is like temperature. Even though Lake M1 has less water coming into it, since the output flow is much less, the level of the lake stays the same as Lake Intel.
but most logic example is , if to heat . I may can't touch the macbook even the die[cpu] allowed it . I may cook egg instead lol.
 

Nothatsnotit

Suspended
Nov 19, 2021
1
2
You don‘t send the 100C anywhere. 100C is a temperature. Temperature is a measure of the average kinetic energy of the molecules of whatever has a temperature. Heat is a transfer of energy. So you have some surface and it has a temperature of 100C. That temperature - that measure of kinetic energy - reflects the transfer of energy into that surface minus the transfer of energy out of that surface.

So, what we see from fan speeds and power ratings of the M1 and Intel CPUs, what is happening is the following:

(1) current drawn by the CPU and used to perform calculations by charging and discharging wires generates heat (due to electrical resistance on the wires and the transistor channels). This heat raises the temperature of the silicon - again, heat is a transfer of thermal energy from one place to another, which increases the average kinetic energy of wherever the transfer is going to (And that average kinetic energy IS the temperature). M1 creates more heat than some Intel chips and less than others. But as compared to comparable performing chips, it generates less heat. So, all else being equal, the temperature of the silicon should be less. BUT…

(2) heat is transferred to the silicon, but, like a lake with an inlet and outlet, heat is also transferred away from the silicon. The amount of thermal energy removed from the silicon is a function of things like the surface area of the package, the dimensions and materials of any heatsink, the dimensions of any fins on the heatsink, the velocity of air moving over the heatsink fins, whether the air flow is turbulant or not, etc. We see that in these MBPs, the fans seem to operate at very low speeds or not at all most of the time.

When heat is transferred away from the silicon, it has to go somewhere - heat is the transfer of thermal energy, and any transfer needs a destination. On Intel macs, this transfer goes to your lap, which gets hot. This would happen on M1 macs, too, but, to achieve a given CPU temperature, less heat needs to be transferred out, so the case gets less hot.

Going back to the lake analogy - the level of the lake is like temperature. Even though Lake M1 has less water coming into it, since the output flow is much less, the level of the lake stays the same as Lake Intel.
This is wrong. May I ask where you were taught thermodynamics and fluid mechanics?
 

AndyMacAndMic

macrumors 65816
May 25, 2017
1,112
1,676
Western Europe
This is wrong. May I ask where you were taught thermodynamics and fluid mechanics?
Simply stating "This is wrong" won't do.

If you claim someone's post is wrong you usually provide counter arguments, preferably accompanied with sources.
Doubting or questioning someone's credentials to prove your point or to be condescending is a big no no.

I see you are new on this forum, maybe you want to take some time to acquaint yourself with the forum rules first?
 
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mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,866
This is wrong. May I ask where you were taught thermodynamics and fluid mechanics?
There's a few places where @cmaier was maybe a little loose with terminology, but you're gonna have to be a bit more specific if you want to claim he's all wrong. Because he's not.

The relevant high school physics equation is Q=c*m*dT. Q is heat energy (often measured in Joules), c is the "specific heat capacity" of the piece of matter you're analyzing (this is a number which varies based on material properties, but is constant for any given material), m is the mass of the material, and dT is delta-T, the temperature rise that material experiences if Q joules of thermal energy are transferred into it. (If Q is a negative number, that's joules moving out AKA cooling, and dT becomes a negative number too.)

Now let's talk about power. Power is a measure of energy over time, and the SI unit is the watt. One watt is one joule per second.

If a chip is consuming 100W of electrical power (100 J/s) and converting it to heat as a byproduct of doing some computation with it, 100 joules of thermal energy are being added to the die every second. If you assume there is no outflow of thermal energy from the die, for every 1 second it spends in this condition it's getting 100J of thermal energy added to its mass and the temperature of that mass will go up by the rearranged equation dT = Q / (c * m) = 100 J / (c * m) where c is 0.7 J/(gram * degC), the specific heat of silicon. (I'm ignoring the mass and properties of all the non-silicon materials in the active layer of the die, here, because their mass is really low compared to the bulk silicon of the die.) If we assume the die is 1 gram, that'd be 100/(0.7 * 1) = 142.9 degrees C temperature rise every second.

If that 100 J/s influx of thermal energy is balanced by a 100 J/s outflux - by passive and active cooling providing a net -100W thermal power to the die - the die's temperature neither rises nor falls.

If there's a 100W influx and a 101W outflux, the die's temperature will fall.

That's what @cmaier is talking about with the lake analogy. The difference between energy influx and outflux determines how rapidly and in what direction temperature changes, just as a lake fills or drains at a rate proportional to the difference between the amount of flow into and out of the lake.

Now let's think about an artificial lake created by damming up a valley. You don't ever want the lake to top the dam, because that usually results in a dam failure. So whenever the lake starts getting too full, the people running the dam (or an automatic system) open a valve to let water flow out at a higher rate.

That's exactly what Apple's thermal control loops are doing. They don't bother goosing the outflow (ramping up the fans) until temperatures rise somewhere close to safe operating limits (I'm using safe to imply computational correctness - see @cmaier's earlier posts). Then, to keep "water" from "overtopping the dam", they raise fan speeds until thermal energy inflow and outflow are balanced and the chip's temperature stops rising.

Is it possible to keep die junction temperature lower by running the fans faster earlier so that equilibrium is reached by the time the chip hits 60C, or whatever? Sure. Do you need to? Nah.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
but most logic example is , if to heat . I may can't touch the macbook even the die[cpu] allowed it . I may cook egg instead lol.
Cpu temperature is not the same as the temperature of the MacBook case.
This is wrong. May I ask where you were taught thermodynamics and fluid mechanics?
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, which is also where I studied electronic packaging under Gene Ryzmesewski and designed and reported on a 3D multi chip module package as part of my PhD research. You?
 
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alien3dx

macrumors 68020
Feb 12, 2017
2,193
524
Cpu temperature is not the same as the temperature of the MacBook case.

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, which is also where I studied electronic packaging under Gene Ryzmesewski and designed and reported on a 3D multi chip module package as part of my PhD research. You?
so if cpu is not the same temp as macbook where the heat gone 2. at least the notebook pretty heat.I sometimes put laptop on lap lol .
** maybe a noob question here.
 

alien3dx

macrumors 68020
Feb 12, 2017
2,193
524
Simply stating "This is wrong" won't do.

If you claim someone's post is wrong you usually provide counter arguments, preferably accompanied with sources.
Doubting or questioning someone's credentials to prove your point or to be condescending is a big no no.

I see you are new on this forum, maybe you want to take some time to read the forum rules first?
dono got rule , once i got this of question and said im not developer. erk .
 

lclev

macrumors 6502a
Jul 29, 2013
551
393
Ohio
Very bad idea.
Just to put the content into another container you reencode the video. This makes the quality worse and is an unnecessary effort.
Sorry - but I wanted to do a comparison and that is what I had to work with at home. Not using it for anything. :oops:

Edit: for clarity - I capture in OBS and use the Remux feature to change it to an mp4. I am aware OBS will capture in mp4 but there is a chance of loosing the capture if something happens and I have found the audio to video sync will be off several frames if I use mp4.
 
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dimme

macrumors 68040
Feb 14, 2007
3,265
32,184
SF, CA
After reading through these post I am not too concerned about the heat on my M1 Mac. But I do have a question for someone with more knowledge that myself. Hopefully @cmaier will see this. I was running xplane the only app the heats up my machine. I decided to log the temperature I see a few times the performance core package will hit 101C for 4 seconds and then drop to 85C 2 seconds later. To me that sounds odd that the chip can cool so fast. I have TG pro and stat pro installed and stat temps are not as high and smoother. Istat does not give as many readouts as TG Pro. Anyway just looking for some answers. Screen shot and excellent doc attached.
Thanks
 

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cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
After reading through these post I am not too concerned about the heat on my M1 Mac. But I do have a question for someone with more knowledge that myself. Hopefully @cmaier will see this. I was running xplane the only app the heats up my machine. I decided to log the temperature I see a few times the performance core package will hit 101C for 4 seconds and then drop to 85C 2 seconds later. To me that sounds odd that the chip can cool so fast. I have TG pro and stat pro installed and stat temps are not as high and smoother. Istat does not give as many readouts as TG Pro. Anyway just looking for some answers. Screen shot and excellent doc attached.
Thanks
It’s not too surprising. Local hot spots dissipate quickly once you turn down the heat generation (clock frequency) and turn up the fan a bit. There’s also some inaccuracy in the logging, so…
 

chengengaun

macrumors 6502
Feb 7, 2012
371
854
Wow, I wandered in not expecting much but was educated and entertained in equal measure. The lake analogy brought to mind specific heat capacity I learned... probably back in high school. (Even learned how to wash chips - with liberal amount of deionised water!) Special thanks to @cmaier and @mr_roboto!
 
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doolar

macrumors 6502a
Nov 25, 2019
644
1,128
Cpu temperature is not the same as the temperature of the MacBook case.

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, which is also where I studied electronic packaging under Gene Ryzmesewski and designed and reported on a 3D multi chip module package as part of my PhD research. You?
Haha lol buuuuuuurn!
 
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