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koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
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That is indeed correct. Its 9 wide decode which gave them 3.5% IPC increase.

From technology standing point of view - it appears its not the issue with the process, but more with skills, and talent drain that affected Apple after M1 release.

A17 Pro is very much disappointing product.
 
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leman

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Oct 14, 2008
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And the funniest part is that, again - it appears that those chips are less efficient than previous generation.


TSMCs N3 process is still a steaming pile of garbage.

How accurate are these measurements? There are multiple points per graph and I have difficulty understanding them. I see that A16 also shows fairly high peak power consumption, but this doesn’t seem to be confirmed by other data?

I also remember Andrei Frumusanu criticizing the methodology of some Chinese reviewers, could be the same people (unfortunately, he deleted his Twitter account since, so these posts are not available anymore).

Edit: I checked the Anandtech reviews and there seems to be a huge discrepancy in power consumption. According to Anandtech A-series have been consuming slightly over 4 watts for the last few generations. Here it is claimed that A16 consumes dramatically less power than A14. I find this hard to believe.
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
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Canada
How accurate are these measurements? There are multiple points per graph and I have difficulty understanding them. I see that A16 also shows fairly high peak power consumption, but this doesn’t seem to be confirmed by other data?

I also remember Andrei Frumusanu criticizing the methodology of some Chinese reviewers, could be the same people (unfortunately, he deleted his Twitter account since, so these posts are not available anymore).
The downfall of Anandtech is rather saddening as we no longer get the nice deep dives into Apple chips the way we used to. I believe the M1 was the last time we saw proper deep dives from them....
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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And the funniest part is that, again - it appears that those chips are less efficient than previous generation.


TSMCs N3 process is still a steaming pile of garbage.

N3 being 'bad' is odd conclusion. If look at the CPU graph there are TWO data points for the A17 Pro. One about 9.8W and another at 14W. When the A17 is 'max clocked' it beats the A16 at performance/watt. ( About the same performance but the A16 is soaking up more watts than the A17 Pro). However when want to "single thread drag race" the A17 Pro gets more peformance but scarifices Perf/Watt efficiency to get there.

The is NOT a defect in the fab process. If run in the zone the fab process primarily is design to it is more effective. If you run it out of the zone ... surprise , surprise , surprise it is not. You don't get both power efficiency and performance gains at the same time. Want more of one you get less of the other and vice versa.

Folks are running off the extreme end of the graph looking at only one data point and making vast, sweeping assumptoins on the most minimal set of data possible. That often doesn't work.

Similar on the GPU graph. Drop down to 3W range and the A17 Pro is doing better than the A16. Again weirdly in the kludge job on these graphs he author is not plotting the A17 Pro curve but putting lots more effort into the other older and/or competitor curves. At 4.5W range A17 Pro is doing better if pencil-in the curve for the A16 that is plainly missing. The A17 Pro at max cores and max clock soaking up more power. Errr, that is suppose to be surprising? There is an additional core. Probably maxing out the internal bus network bandwidth and the memory subsystem; neither one of those is gong to be power 'cheap'.

Apple has pitches these phones are possible "gaming console" substitutes. That probably isn't a good idea if concerned about battery life. Extremely hard core , aggressive gaming will probably kill batteries on these things. Normal user phone usage probably won't. Which one is more likely to be the common user use case???? That common case ... that is what N3B is tuned to. And it probably won't 'fail'.
 

koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
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How accurate are these measurements? There are multiple points per graph and I have difficulty understanding them. I see that A16 also shows fairly high peak power consumption, but this doesn’t seem to be confirmed by other data?

I also remember Andrei Frumusanu criticizing the methodology of some Chinese reviewers, could be the same people (unfortunately, he deleted his Twitter account since, so these posts are not available anymore).
Considering that battery life tests reflect the power draw, as seen in the Anandtech forum link, I'd say those tests are very accurate.

iPhone 15 Pro Max has worse battery life than previous gen, which already had worse battery life than previous gen.
 
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Kpjoslee

macrumors 6502
Sep 11, 2007
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Considering that battery life tests reflect the power draw, as seen in the Anandtech forum link, I'd say those tests are very accurate.

iPhone 15 Pro Max has worse battery life than previous gen, which already had worse battery life than previous gen.
Too early to jump to a conclusion when we only have a single data point for now. Until we have multiple datapoints indicating the same trend, I would wait and see.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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iPhone 15 Pro Max has worse battery life than previous gen, which already had worse battery life than previous gen.

Not according to trusted independent reviews I’ve seen (e.g. DxMark)? But I don’t know the methodology. The battery life’s they get are very low, so they must be doing something relatively demanding. Is there a description of methodology?
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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Case in point: according to those battery tests A15 Pro is almost 20% worse than A13 Pro, despite a 5% larger battery capacity. Yet the SPEC power draw they report for A17 is lower than what Anandtech reports for A15. It just doesn’t add up for me.
 

jeanlain

macrumors 68020
Mar 14, 2009
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And the funniest part is that, again - it appears that those chips are less efficient than previous generation.
This seems unlikely. If the increase in power consumption was that high, how would the games that Apple showcased in the even run from more than few minutes without burning a hole in the chassis?

And the difference in performance between A16 and A17 in Solar Bay, which is a ray-tracing test, should be much much higher (Apple showed a >3X increase in a particular scene). I don't think the A16 can generate 20 fps in this test.

I'm also a but suspicious about how they establish their performance/power curves. Can they somehow modify clock speed on an iPhone?
 

komuh

macrumors regular
May 13, 2023
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This seems unlikely. If the increase in power consumption was that high, how would the games that Apple showcased in the even run from more than few minutes without burning a hole in the chassis?

And the difference in performance between A16 and A17 in Solar Bay, which is a ray-tracing test, should be much much higher (Apple showed a >3X increase in a particular scene). I don't think the A16 can generate 20 fps in this test.

I'm also a but suspicious about how they establish their performance/power curves. Can they somehow modify clock speed on an iPhone?
Most likely this test software still does not support ray-tracing hardware units on A17.
Also it can indeed be 20 fps in the test (metal ray tracing is pretty well optimised and A16 is already pretty powerful especially for lower resolution scenes).
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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I know, I know! But ... you falsely assume, only because A17 is 3nm and a new design, it must realize the total max possible 18% speed increase from the die shrink plus some extra speed increase from design changes. You do not take into account that new GPU features and power reduction are also valuable design targets.

That really isn't the 'design rules'. The design rules are more so constraints on layout and timings. The A17 has a higher level more abstract definition. That gets mapped down into actual gate layouts in a specific floorplan ( how the different function units are arranged on the die). If operating in a related set of process nodes ( e.g., N5 family of compatilble design rules) that mapping down process generally works for any member of the set. So port costs are lower. You don't have to do extensive floorplan remapping, major connectivity changes, and chasing major timing issues. It needs to be re validated and some 'quirks' probably cleaned up.

But the architecture design can be moved to another 'family' of process nodes. The die will probably end up a different size. Probably needs a substantively adjusted floorplan, probably internal inetwork issues to iron out. But the logical archiecture of the function units doesn't have to radically change.

For example, AMD has a roadmap that has Zen 5 on both TSMC N4 and N3.
Hv4vPoGqvcjuEhSZNrD3bU-1200-80.jpg


TSMC N4 and N3 are not design rule compatible. ( N3E and N4 do match up in design issues/constraints about SRAM/cache though. That subsystem isn't seeing a major change. Same with I/O. ). The Zen5 N3 probably more likely shows up in a later stage APU that has a different lifecycle than the server chiplets will see ( that are also used in desktop ).

They have also put some earlier "Vega" GPU implementations onto 'new family' nodes. It is a matter of how much longer going to sell something to whether or not the additional costs are worth it or not... not whether it is possible.


Whether Apple skews their design to taking max performance/clock out of N3 or toward max power saving is different that the underlying design rules. Whichever one of those design skew choices that Apple makes the underlying fab process design rules are exactly the same. That is more a matter of what higher level design trade-offs Apple wants to take or not.

AMD for example once again. The Zen4 and Zen4c cores have the same N5 family design rule constraints but the AMD design shoots for different design density. 4c and 5c designs at the higher levels impact being able to extract maximum clock from the fab process. They 'give up' max single thread drag racing option to roll out at a smaller die space size. The process design rules didn't 'change'. Same rules just tweaking high level design to realize difference trade-offs the rules enable.


The A14 , A15 , A16 resulted in gradually bigger and bigger dies sizes on the N5-family nodes used. The cost of N3 wafers is substantively higher. So it is pretty likely the team got put on a 'diet' in terms of die bloat allowed on this iteration. ( N3E is likely going to have similar issues because the SRAM is backsliding back to N5 size levels. )
 
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jeanlain

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Mar 14, 2009
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Most likely this test software still does not support ray-tracing hardware units on A17.
Solar Bay was shown by Apple in their A17 presentation to demonstrate the benefits of HW-accelerated ray tracing.
 

komuh

macrumors regular
May 13, 2023
126
113
Solar Bay was shown by Apple in their A17 presentation to demonstrate the benefits of HW-accelerated ray tracing.
Yes but what version, it can be only some internal optimised version from Apple as with Blender Metal few years back or they just tested some most optimised case on A17, not the classical test who knows.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
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Can we finally admit that Apple has lost most of their best chip designers by now?

Why would we admit that? They just delivered the first 3nm chip, a widest CPU core ever shipped and matching desktop x86 in SPEC running in a smartphone, plus a power efficient hardware raytracer. If you call this “losing best designers”, what should everyone else say?
 

Retskrad

macrumors regular
Apr 1, 2022
200
672
Why would we admit that? They just delivered the first 3nm chip, a widest CPU core ever shipped and matching desktop x86 in SPEC running in a smartphone, plus a power efficient hardware raytracer. If you call this “losing best designers”, what should everyone else say?
When Apple was on top of the world with the M1, they got all the praise and accolades. When they are on a slump for several years in a row, it’s only fair to give them equally amount of criticism. Ever since the A14, Apple has basically gone for the low hanging fruit and increased clock speeds to increase performance. It’s obvious that they are grasping at straws.
 

koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
5,939
1,853
Why would we admit that? They just delivered the first 3nm chip, a widest CPU core ever shipped and matching desktop x86 in SPEC running in a smartphone, plus a power efficient hardware raytracer. If you call this “losing best designers”, what should everyone else say?
Well, Apple packaging design team is currently at AMD.
 

jeanlain

macrumors 68020
Mar 14, 2009
2,460
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Yes but what version, it can be only some internal optimised version from Apple as with Blender Metal few years back or they just tested some most optimised case on A17, not the classical test who knows.
It'd be strange if Apple did not ensure that a version talking advantage of the A17 was ready for the first reviews.
The tool was released on the day of the Apple event. IMO, that's precisely because it can show the advantage of HW-accelerated ray tracing.
Also, my M1 Pro runs this test at 42 fps on average and it is much more than twice faster than a A16.

EDIT: apparently, the M1 Pro (14 core GPU) is about twice faster than an A16 (I've checked in GFXBench), so the 20 fps average in Solar Bay make sense. It's the A17 which should yield much more than 30 fps. We should wait for independent tests.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
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When Apple was on top of the world with the M1, they got all the praise and accolades. When they are on a slump for several years in a row, it’s only fair to give them equally amount of criticism. Ever since the A14, Apple has basically gone for the low hanging fruit and increased clock speeds to increase performance. It’s obvious that they are grasping at straws.

A few pages ago I have posted a chart showing linear, constant performance improvements between every generation. They were also increasing the frequency well before A14. Sure, A15 and A16 didn’t bring any significant architecture updates, but they were considerable design tweaks to allow better performance.

If Apple can improve performance without increasing power consumption, that’s a very legitimate way of improving a CPU design. As @mr_roboto mentioned, sometimes a substantial redesign is required to allow higher clocks. I mean, they apparently now reach 13.44 points in SPECfp 2017 under 5 watts. That’s on par with a 12900K! Do you really think this is achievable on A14 architecture, with only minor tweaks? This is very different from what Intel has been doing with Skylake for example. Apple is tweaking each and every design. The balancing of basic data structures and layout is different for every iteration.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
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Well, Apple packaging design team is currently at AMD.

So what? You are talking like there are only five competent designers in the world. Good engineers don’t like to stay in one place for long, it’s not optimal for their career. If one were to cry doom and gloom every time a big name leaves, every single company would be in trouble. Apple did quite well after Jim Keller left, as did AMD. And it doesn’t seem like Anubis is doing all that hot even with the best Apple CPU designers.
 

koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
5,939
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So what? You are talking like there are only five competent designers in the world. Good engineers don’t like to stay in one place for long, it’s not optimal for their career. If one were to cry doom and gloom every time a big name leaves, every single company would be in trouble. Apple did quite well after Jim Keller left, as did AMD. And it doesn’t seem like Anubis is doing all that hot even with the best Apple CPU designers.
It means that everybody will overtake Apple very soon in every single metric, possible.
 
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komuh

macrumors regular
May 13, 2023
126
113
It'd be strange if Apple did not ensure that a version talking advantage of the A17 was ready for the first reviews.
The tool was released on the day of the Apple event. IMO, that's precisely because it can show the advantage of HW-accelerated ray tracing.
Also, my M1 Pro runs this test at 42 fps on average and it is much more than twice faster than a A16.

EDIT: apparently, the M1 Pro (14 core GPU) is about twice faster than an A16 (I've checked in GFXBench), so the 20 fps average in Solar Bay make sense. It's the A17 which should yield much more than 30 fps. We should wait for independent tests.
So its probably software not utilised rt cores fully/at all cause of versioning, same case with Blender few years ago as I wrote before.
 
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