Mac mini: 4k @ 120hz?

[Zorast]

Did someone test this:

TS4 (0,8 m) – Thunderbolt Station 4 – 18 Anschlüsse, 98 W Laden, 3 x Thunderbolt 4 (40 Gbit/s), 3 x USB-C (10 Gbit/s), 5 x USB-A (10 Gbit/s), DisplayPort 1.4, 2,5 GbE, SD und microSD UHS-II.

Die ikonische Thunderbolt Station ist zurück, jetzt in ihrer vierten Auflage, mit dem klassischen Design, das erstmals von CalDigit eingeführt wurde. Das TS4 ist nicht nur das leistungsstärkste Do...

www.amazon.de

with an DP 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 Adapter ?

 

[zamzam1235]

@AironMan,

Lets look at this conversion again.

usb-c thunderbolt supports bandwidth up to 40 Gbps.
DP 1.4 bandwidth is 25 Gbps.
HDMI 2.1 up to 48 Gbps.

The problem is we want to go from usb-c to HDMI 2.1 , which in theory is fine , also in practice it works because windows allows you to do 4k/120/444/10bit/HDR.
The issue is macos doesn't allow this and limits to dp 1.4 bandwidth even though we are connecting from a usb-c.
And that right there is the problem.

mac os has to down scale the bandwidth if we use usb-c to dp1.4. so we go from 40Gbps to 25Gbps. So in theory it can output 4k/120/444/10bit/HDR on usb-c but dp 1.4 will have to downgrade it because of 25 Gbps limit.

This issue here is dp 1.4 and not usb-c or hdmi. I think apple is limiting the bandwidth of usb-c to 25Gbps because they believe people will connect macs to monitors which most of them support only dp 1.4.

Only recently have TV/Monitors started to support HDMI 2.1 but DP2.0 isn't even out yet. Hence this strict DP 1.4 limit on macos.

Someone correct me if my understanding is wrong.

 

[joevt]

@AironMan,

Lets look at this conversion again.

usb-c thunderbolt supports bandwidth up to 40 Gbps.
DP 1.4 bandwidth is 25 Gbps.
HDMI 2.1 up to 48 Gbps.

The problem is we want to go from usb-c to HDMI 2.1 , which in theory is fine , also in practice it works because windows allows you to do 4k/120/444/10bit/HDR.
The issue is macos doesn't allow this and limits to dp 1.4 bandwidth even though we are connecting from a usb-c.
And that right there is the problem.

mac os has to down scale the bandwidth if we use usb-c to dp1.4. so we go from 40Gbps to 25Gbps. So in theory it can output 4k/120/444/10bit/HDR on usb-c but dp 1.4 will have to downgrade it because of 25 Gbps limit.

This issue here is dp 1.4 and not usb-c or hdmi. I think apple is limiting the bandwidth of usb-c to 25Gbps because they believe people will connect macs to monitors which most of them support only dp 1.4.

Only recently have TV/Monitors started to support HDMI 2.1 but DP2.0 isn't even out yet. Hence this strict DP 1.4 limit on macos.

Someone correct me if my understanding is wrong.

Thunderbolt is not a video signal. It can carry two DisplayPort signals.
DisplayPort has multiple speeds (the following are for 4 lanes but DisplayPort connections can also have 1 or 2 lanes)
HBR = 8.64 Gbps
HBR2 = 17.28 Gbps
HBR3 = 25.92 Gbps

In the future with DisplayPort 2.0 (which Thunderbolt 5 and USB4 2.0 should support), these modes may be supported:
UHBR 10 = 38.69 Gbps (Intel ARC GPUs support this mode but not the faster modes; all other current GPUs are limited to HBR3)
UHBR 13.5 = 52.22 Gbps
UHBR 20 = 77.37 Gbps

So Thunderbolt 3 can carry one HBR3 signal and one HBR signal or two HBR2 signals (assuming 4 lanes each).
Apple has a method to force two HBR3 signals over Thunderbolt for the Apple Pro Display XDR when the GPU doesn't support DSC.

HDMI also has multiple speeds:
TMDS 1.65 = 3.96 Gbps
TMDS 3.4 = 8.16 Gbps
TMDS 6 = 14.4 Gbps
FRL 6 = 21.33 Gbps
FRL 8 = 28.44 Gbps
FRL 10 = 35.56 Gbps
FRL 12 = 42.67 Gbps

DSC can reduce bits per pixel to 12bpp (the default for macOS). It can maybe go as low as 8bpp. A normal HDR pixel is 30bpp (10bpc).

HBR3 at 12bpp can do up to 2160 MHz which is enough for 8K60 for CVT-RB timing but not for HDMI timing. 4K228 may be possible.

HBR3 at 8bpp can do up to 3240MHz. I don't know what 8bpp looks like. I don't know if any OS can go that low. I don't know any displays that can do more than the 2367 MHz of 8K HDMI...

For DSC Maybe subtract 3% from the max to allow for FEC overhead.

However:
Some adapters don't support the full HDMI 2.1 speed. Maybe they're limited to FRL 10 or less.
Some devices support DSC but at a lower bandwidth compared to DSC.
Some adapters support DSC at only certain bpc values (for example, MST hubs won't decompress DSC for 10bpc).
Some OSes or GPU drivers don't support some adapters properly - they don't support different modes that would allow higher pixel clocks. This is the problem with macOS.

 

[Zorast]

Macs and 4K 120Hz displays compatibility list

Macs/4K 120Hz displays compatibility list

tonsky.me

 

[Zorast]

This guy write that he can use a DP to HDMI Adapter @ 4k 120hz on a MacBook Pro M 1 when VM Parallels Windows is running but not when macOS is Running. So this is not Hardware Limit, its a Software thing.

 

[Zorast]

Heres another one that say the same thing.

 

[kasakka]

What if we use (M1/M2 Macs)USB-C -> DP1.4 and then use DP1.4-> HDMI 2.1 Adapter(LG OLED). Can we get 4k/120hz this way using two adapters?

This does not work. I have tried this with the following gear:

• CableMatters USB-C -> DP 1.4
• Club3D CAC-1085 DP 1.4 + DSC -> HDMI 2.1 adapter
• LG CX 48"

I just plug the adapters together and a HDMI 2.1 cable after this.

If I plug this into my 2019 Intel MBP with Radeon 5300M, 4K 60 Hz is max. Now granted, the Intel Macs tend to be pretty flaky with 4K 120 Hz support as I can't get it working with either DP or HDMI with my Samsung G70A 4K 144 Hz. It won't even display a picture over HDMI unless I limit the display to HDMI 2.0 from its OSD.

If I plug the exact same adapter chain to the USB-C port on my desktop PC's 2080 Ti, 4K 120 Hz works as expected.

 

[Zorast]

Yes its limited from MacOS when its recognize a HDMI Device over EDID it Limit to 60hz

 

[zamzam1235]

This does not work. I have tried this with the following gear:

• CableMatters USB-C -> DP 1.4
• Club3D CAC-1085 DP 1.4 + DSC -> HDMI 2.1 adapter
• LG CX 48"

I just plug the adapters together and a HDMI 2.1 cable after this.

If I plug this into my 2019 Intel MBP with Radeon 5300M, 4K 60 Hz is max. Now granted, the Intel Macs tend to be pretty flaky with 4K 120 Hz support as I can't get it working with either DP or HDMI with my Samsung G70A 4K 144 Hz. It won't even display a picture over HDMI unless I limit the display to HDMI 2.0 from its OSD.

If I plug the exact same adapter chain to the USB-C port on my desktop PC's 2080 Ti, 4K 120 Hz works as expected.

Yes, it is very clear from evidence that macos is the limitation here.

What i generally do in such cases is i go to the apple support chat and ask them , Windows does hdmi 2.1 does mac os also do hdmi 2.1 and they feel ashamed that it does not and they say we take a note of it and report to their managers. I do this for every feature that windows does and mac os does not. LOL.

Apple should be publicly shamed for such practices. Its not just this one particular case. Its with everything. They want you to buy into their hardware. They should not sell mac minis and mac studios if they want you to buy their displays.

But i digress, for now the best we can do is 4k/60hz/ycbcr or rgb/444/10bit/hdr and that is decent enough. until some apple hardware supports hdmi 2.1 we are not going to get what we want, which is a shame. But hey its apple what do you expect.

if it wasn't for their font and image rendering , i would not touch such a restricted OS with a 10 foot pole.

Also MS and Windows is no better, Windows 11 looks like its still in the 90s , the font and image rendering is so bad compared to apples. The mactype font rendering software for windows makes it a little bearable , but still not good enough.

Now eventually they have to support hdmi 2.1 and DP 2.0, only question is when. Even DP 2.0 sources hardware is coming out next month the new AMD graphics cards. so i guess apple will have to atleast support DP 2.0 by jan/feb of next year. can't say the same about hdmi 2.1.

 

[Zorast]

Yes this guy say, when u use VM Parallels Windows ARM on a Macbook M1 Pro u can use 4k@120hz on the same Adapter connected to the Mac but macOS does not enable 4k@120hz !

 

[Zorast]

Get my Adapters. Can confirm, USB-C > DP 1.4 > HDMI 2.1 (active) incl. DSC does not work also. SH... MacOS

 

[Zorast]

Any thoughts on using something like this to emulate a Displayport device, forcing the Mac to output a full signal then adding on a DP to HDMI 2.1 Active Adapter on the output?

Headless DisplayPort 1.4 32G 8K EDID Emulator

Ideal zur Lösung von Problemen die bei Verwendung von DP-KVM-Umschaltern oder Video-Switchern auftreten können

www.ute.de

Stolzer Preis! Someone test it ?

 

[kasakka]

Yes, it is very clear from evidence that macos is the limitation here.

What i generally do in such cases is i go to the apple support chat and ask them , Windows does hdmi 2.1 does mac os also do hdmi 2.1 and they feel ashamed that it does not and they say we take a note of it and report to their managers. I do this for every feature that windows does and mac os does not. LOL.

Apple should be publicly shamed for such practices. Its not just this one particular case. Its with everything. They want you to buy into their hardware. They should not sell mac minis and mac studios if they want you to buy their displays.

But i digress, for now the best we can do is 4k/60hz/ycbcr or rgb/444/10bit/hdr and that is decent enough. until some apple hardware supports hdmi 2.1 we are not going to get what we want, which is a shame. But hey its apple what do you expect.

if it wasn't for their font and image rendering , i would not touch such a restricted OS with a 10 foot pole.

Also MS and Windows is no better, Windows 11 looks like its still in the 90s , the font and image rendering is so bad compared to apples. The mactype font rendering software for windows makes it a little bearable , but still not good enough.

Now eventually they have to support hdmi 2.1 and DP 2.0, only question is when. Even DP 2.0 sources hardware is coming out next month the new AMD graphics cards. so i guess apple will have to atleast support DP 2.0 by jan/feb of next year. can't say the same about hdmi 2.1.

I actually find Windows is far superior for scaling and text rendering now. Font rendering can be argued as it's basically just two different approaches (accurate for fonts vs pixel grid aligned) but Windows handles 4K displays way, way better. The same 4K display that on MacOS looks a bit blurry with 150% scaling (or any non-integer scaled setting) looks better on Windows because it handles scaling in a nicer way than Apple's naive "target res 2x -> downscale to native res" approach.

Don't take me wrong, Windows 11 has a long list of its own issues but in general for me at least it's more quirks territory rather than downright making my experience bad.

There's honestly a lot of things Apple should be shamed for just with displays. The downright embarassingly bad handling for external displays whether it's compatibility overall, high refresh rate, HDMI 2.1 support, chroma subsampling options, DPI scaling or just plain bad performance on several thousand dollar laptops like my 2019 Intel 16" MBP. The jelly scroll iPad Mini display. The abysmal pixel response times of the Macbook Pros...it's a long list.

But hey, let's get excited about whatever new emoji features the Apple Mail app gets with the next version of MacOS in 2023!

 

[zamzam1235]

@kasakka

I totally agree with you.

This is why i first try out the macos on hackintosh. When i first tried the Ventura beta, it was horrible. But the lastest stable release and the edid override. I cannot believe my eyes on my LG CX. I never realized how color accurate mac os produces the image out of the box.No calibration needed. The same cannot be said about windows. Since i work with images , this was a huge plus point for macos. The colors feel wrong even with icc profiles and the SDR brightness in HDR mode hides image detail. The same HDR mode in macos is different. I think macos has proper HDR mode compared to windows.

I also do coding, and in windows ,the code text is so horrible to read on any editor. Mactype makes it bearable, but the font rendering on macos its just simply amazing. For e.g the books app is so easy to read on.

Also you can do finer adjustments in terminals like characters and line spacing, that you cannot do in windows terminals. These finer adjustments makes code so readable.

Also i tried fedora linux and that is also amazing with font and image rendering compared to win and macos.Its the best of both worlds. It has come a long way. The gnome desktop looks so polished.Its unbelievable. Also its blazing fast and snappy compared to win/mac. only issue is i don't have my apps on linux and no HDR. Once that comes along and i will be using fedora as my daily driver. dual boot windows and fedora may be.

The problem is one OS does not seem to fit one's needs. Until such time, guess i have to use multiple OS's and as of now apple is lagging behind.

 

[Zorast]

We need something like that for Displayport !

PURE PT-TOOL-100 - PureTools - HDMI EDID EMULATOR, 4K

erzeugung von Testsignalen und Emulation von Displays mit Signalanalyseunterstützt 18Gbps für Auflösungen bis zu 4K UltraHD 60HzKonfiguration des Ausgangssignals mittels 4 DIP Schaltern für Disp [...]

www.reichelt.de

 

[joevt]

We need something like that for Displayport !

PURE PT-TOOL-100 - PureTools - HDMI EDID EMULATOR, 4K

erzeugung von Testsignalen und Emulation von Displays mit Signalanalyseunterstützt 18Gbps für Auflösungen bis zu 4K UltraHD 60HzKonfiguration des Ausgangssignals mittels 4 DIP Schaltern für Disp [...]

www.reichelt.de

More like this:

Dr HDMI 8K | HDFury.com | Connect and Fix everything in HDMI

World First HDMI 2.1 EDID Manager with webserver and Android/iOS APP! Up to FRL5/40Gbps/1200MHz signal passthru with VRR support + FRL6/48Gbps/1500MHz under testing The Dr.HDMI 8K Kit includes: Dr.HDMI 8K unit Choice of power supply USB power cable (6ft)

hdfury.com

It's got a web interface!

 

[EugW]

I actually find Windows is far superior for scaling and text rendering now. Font rendering can be argued as it's basically just two different approaches (accurate for fonts vs pixel grid aligned) but Windows handles 4K displays way, way better. The same 4K display that on MacOS looks a bit blurry with 150% scaling (or any non-integer scaled setting) looks better on Windows because it handles scaling in a nicer way than Apple's naive "target res 2x -> downscale to native res" approach.

Don't take me wrong, Windows 11 has a long list of its own issues but in general for me at least it's more quirks territory rather than downright making my experience bad.

There's honestly a lot of things Apple should be shamed for just with displays. The downright embarassingly bad handling for external displays whether it's compatibility overall, high refresh rate, HDMI 2.1 support, chroma subsampling options, DPI scaling or just plain bad performance on several thousand dollar laptops like my 2019 Intel 16" MBP. The jelly scroll iPad Mini display. The abysmal pixel response times of the Macbook Pros...it's a long list.

But hey, let's get excited about whatever new emoji features the Apple Mail app gets with the next version of MacOS in 2023!

I have Retina 218 ppi 27" iMac, and honestly I often prefer using my 101 ppi 30" Cinema HD Display, mainly because of the default font sizing. Before the 24" M1 iMac was released, I was hoping that Apple could release a 29" 16:9 5K iMac, at 203 ppi, harking back Apple's pixel densities of its Cinema Display past, but unfortunately Apple decided to scrap the big iMac altogether and went with the 218 ppi 27" Apple Retina Studio Display instead. We'll see what happens in the spring but I'm afraid Apple has scrapped ~100/200 ppi for good.

As mentioned, I like my 30" Apple Cinema Display, but because of M1 Mac mini compatibility issues and because of image retention, I just ordered a new 32" display. However, because of the scaling issues you cite, I ordered a 1440p monitor instead of a 4K monitor. On the surface, 4K should be better, but because of the bad non-integer scaling in macOS, it's often not. IMO, I'm probably better off using a 92 ppi 32" 2560x1440 monitor at native resolution than a 138 ppi 32" 4K monitor at a scaled resolution in this context. Ideal would be a ~185-200 ppi monitor at 2X scaling, ie. 5K at 29-32", but unfortunately they don't seem to exist.

 

[Zorast]

More like this:

Dr HDMI 8K | HDFury.com | Connect and Fix everything in HDMI

World First HDMI 2.1 EDID Manager with webserver and Android/iOS APP! Up to FRL5/40Gbps/1200MHz signal passthru with VRR support + FRL6/48Gbps/1500MHz under testing The Dr.HDMI 8K Kit includes: Dr.HDMI 8K unit Choice of power supply USB power cable (6ft)

hdfury.com

It's got a web interface!

Looks good, probably it can be fixed with an specific EDID

 

[joevt]

Looks good, probably it can be fixed with an specific EDID

There is still the issue of whether macOS enables DSC for third party dongles or not.

For Intel Macs, the Display Overrides are read by displaypolicyd and WindowServer/CoreDisplay.framework. CoreDisplayFramework will use EDID overrides and scaled resolutions from overrides that are located in /System/Library/Displays/Contents/Resources/Overrides or /Library/Displays/Contents/Resources/Overrides. displaypolicyd reads mtdd, DSC, and DisplayPort overrides from only the /System location which is not normally writable by the user. I made a Lilu/WhateverGreen patch for displaypolicyd to change the location it reads overrides from to /Library but I haven't attempted any DSC or DisplayPort overrides. Ventura actually adds another type of override for dongles which can be separate from display overrides but I haven't tried it. Besides displaypolicyd and WindowServer, there are other places which read the EDID (using AGDC) bypassing the EDID overrides. I started work on overriding that as well but that's on the back burner for now.

For Apple Silicon Macs, I don't know what processes access the overrides. I think they ignore EDID overrides from /Library but do use scaled resolution overrides and display name overrides from there. Maybe EDID overrides can work from /System/Library? But you have to break the seal to modify /System.

 

[Zorast]

There is still the issue of whether macOS enables DSC for third party dongles or not.

For Intel Macs, the Display Overrides are read by displaypolicyd and WindowServer/CoreDisplay.framework. CoreDisplayFramework will use EDID overrides and scaled resolutions from overrides that are located in /System/Library/Displays/Contents/Resources/Overrides or /Library/Displays/Contents/Resources/Overrides. displaypolicyd reads mtdd, DSC, and DisplayPort overrides from only the /System location which is not normally writable by the user. I made a Lilu/WhateverGreen patch for displaypolicyd to change the location it reads overrides from to /Library but I haven't attempted any DSC or DisplayPort overrides. Ventura actually adds another type of override for dongles which can be separate from display overrides but I haven't tried it. Besides displaypolicyd and WindowServer, there are other places which read the EDID (using AGDC) bypassing the EDID overrides. I started work on overriding that as well but that's on the back burner for now.

For Apple Silicon Macs, I don't know what processes access the overrides. I think they ignore EDID overrides from /Library but do use scaled resolution overrides and display name overrides from there. Maybe EDID overrides can work from /System/Library? But you have to break the seal to modify /System.

Ok, nice that u work on it! Hopefully u can get a workaround. Waydabber from Betterdisplay also say this, on Apple Silicon Macs the EDID can not be change :/

 

[kasakka]

I have Retina 218 ppi 27" iMac, and honestly I often prefer using my 101 ppi 30" Cinema HD Display, mainly because of the default font sizing. Before the 24" M1 iMac was released, I was hoping that Apple could release a 29" 16:9 5K iMac, at 203 ppi, harking back Apple's pixel densities of its Cinema Display past, but unfortunately Apple decided to scrap the big iMac altogether and went with the 218 ppi 27" Apple Retina Studio Display instead. We'll see what happens in the spring but I'm afraid Apple has scrapped ~100/200 ppi for good.

As mentioned, I like my 30" Apple Cinema Display, but because of M1 Mac mini compatibility issues and because of image retention, I just ordered a new 32" display. However, because of the scaling issues you cite, I ordered a 1440p monitor instead of a 4K monitor. On the surface, 4K should be better, but because of the bad non-integer scaling in macOS, it's often not. IMO, I'm probably better off using a 92 ppi 32" 2560x1440 monitor at native resolution than a 138 ppi 32" 4K monitor at a scaled resolution in this context. Ideal would be a ~185-200 ppi monitor at 2X scaling, ie. 5K at 29-32", but unfortunately they don't seem to exist.

Honestly I'd take a 4K 32" every time over 1440p because 1440p without scaling is still worse than 4K with scaling. MacOS just does better the higher the PPI of the display. However Apple should improve their non-integer scaling option. It would be interesting if e.g Metal upscaling could be applied to it and whether that would work for text.

 

[Zorast]

Can not work under 4k anymore. I prefer 4k HiDPI. An OLED or Mini LED 8k 42 Inch will be perfect for me!

 

[Zorast]

Searching for a TB 4 or USB 4 Dock for my Homeoffice. Found this one, its support DP 1.4 and HDMI 2.1. Does not found another Dock that have this both available. Hopefully Future MacOS updates will support HDMI 2.1 over TB 4

USB4 Docking Station Dual Display 4K&8K, QUUGE USB C Dock 14 in 1, HDMI+DP, 3×USB 3.2, 3×USB 2.0, 100W PD Upstream, mit USB4 Kabel, Kompatibel mit USB-C, Thunderbolt 4/3, USB4, MacBook Air Pro

USB4 Docking Station Dual Display 4K&8K, QUUGE USB C Dock 14 in 1, HDMI+DP, 3×USB 3.2, 3×USB 2.0, 100W PD Upstream, mit USB4 Kabel, Kompatibel mit USB-C, Thunderbolt 4/3, USB4, MacBook Air Pro

www.amazon.de

 

[Pressure]

Searching for a TB 4 or USB 4 Dock for my Homeoffice. Found this one, its support DP 1.4 and HDMI 2.1. Does not found another Dock that have this both available. Hopefully Future MacOS updates will support HDMI 2.1 over TB 4

USB4 Docking Station Dual Display 4K&8K, QUUGE USB C Dock 14 in 1, HDMI+DP, 3×USB 3.2, 3×USB 2.0, 100W PD Upstream, mit USB4 Kabel, Kompatibel mit USB-C, Thunderbolt 4/3, USB4, MacBook Air Pro

USB4 Docking Station Dual Display 4K&8K, QUUGE USB C Dock 14 in 1, HDMI+DP, 3×USB 3.2, 3×USB 2.0, 100W PD Upstream, mit USB4 Kabel, Kompatibel mit USB-C, Thunderbolt 4/3, USB4, MacBook Air Pro

www.amazon.de

It clearly states 8K@30Hz as the maximum resolution.

 

[Zorast]

Do u need more ?

4k@120hz is possible: