Mac mini: 4k @ 120hz?

[jasoncarle]

Are you using an M1 Mac mini?

Yes

 

[Toss4]

USB-C > DisplayPort 1.4 (Amazon sells a bunch of these), and then the other adapter I already linked above.

To be honest, I'd actually prefer 4K @ 60Hz here. 120Hz makes images a slight bit cleaner (and amazingly, the M1 can keep up with it with maximum fluidity), but overall, 4K is sharper and clearer than 1440p for texts. And I mostly read static texts.

One thing, though: the CX really sucks with maximum brightness. Auto Brightness Limiter is very aggressive, so brightness jumps up if it's a darker scene, and it scales down significantly when most of the screen is plain white.

That's not to mention brightness has to be adjusted manually via the remote control, and it's buried underneath multiple levels of menu. So I don't think the CX should be used like a computer monitor at all. But maybe that's just me.

In comparison, I have the LG 34WK95U as well. It's meant to be a computer monitor. Brightness adjustment can be achieved very quickly via the control knob, or I can just rely on auto brightness (the display adjusts itself according to ambient, just like the MacBook's screen). CX has no auto brightness.

Last but not least, color calibration is a nightmare on CX. If you already know how to do it, then that's great, but you need to program the TV. By default, the color profile it comes with is not accurate at all. You can switch to one of the TV modes, but that introduces significant lag. In comparison, the LG 34WK95U is 98% DCI-P3, and it's almost a 99% match against my MacBook's screen, versus the iPhone, versus the iPad Pro.

I've seen many Youtube videos of people trying to use the CX 48" as a computer monitor, and absolutely none of them talks about the aggressive ABL, no brightness control, and poor color profile. I do enjoy the CX as a TV, but I'll never want to use it as a computer monitor.

Auto brightness is not something most people need or want. I mean it's useful in a laptop that you carry around with you and use at different places, but on a desktop it's absolutely not necessary. Not sure what you mean by not having brightness control? Just because it's not called brightness, which is mislabelled on most monitors anyways, doesn't mean you cannot adjust the brightness of the display. It has also got better adjustments than most monitors when it comes to color calibration. Let's also not forget about having true blacks instead of gray while also not suffering from horrid ghosting (instant pixel response times) or any uneven black uniformity and abysmal contrast. It's not perfect by a long shot, but it comes much closer than most IPS displays.

 

[bill-p]

Auto brightness is not something most people need or want. I mean it's useful in a laptop that you carry around with you and use at different places, but on a desktop it's absolutely not necessary. Not sure what you mean by not having brightness control? Just because it's not called brightness, which is mislabelled on most monitors anyways, doesn't mean you cannot adjust the brightness of the display. It has also got better adjustments than most monitors when it comes to color calibration. Let's also not forget about having true blacks instead of gray while also not suffering from horrid ghosting (instant pixel response times) or any uneven black uniformity and abysmal contrast. It's not perfect by a long shot, but it comes much closer than most IPS displays.

Auto Brightness is a must because my office is not always equally lit. In the morning, there's more sunlight than in the evening, and the monitor also needs to be brighter. LG 34WK95U does have auto-brightness.

And also brightness on this TV cannot be adjusted from the keyboard, or even from MacOS itself. I have to use the included remote and jump through a bunch of menus to get to the one that can control brightness on the TV itself. Needless to say, this is very cumbersome.

But the biggest problem is the overly aggressive ABL. If you have more white elements on the screen, the brightness of the entire panel decreases very significantly. I have measured that a totally white background is just barely about 400 nits at most. Also if there are fewer white regions, then brightness ramps up. The max I measured was 1000 nits. 400 to 1000 nits is blinding!

This is typically not very important if you are watching movies, but honestly, working with computer user interfaces that have a varying amount of high contrast elements can cause eye strain. Also any color-critical work goes right out of the window because whole brightness shift affects color accuracy a lot.

And I am not alone in my finding. The overly aggressive ABL implementation in the CX 48 makes it a non-starter for me. I need my monitor to have a stable brightness level for color-critical works. Here's a thread on LTT about this issue:

LG CX OLED auto dim help

My friend just buy LG CX48 OLED not too long ago and he doesn't like it one bit. One issue with this OLED that I discovered later on is that it has a basically terrible brightness in SDR mode (250 nid and less) and just decent in HDR, which make it horrible as a PC gaming monitor but worst part i...

linustechtips.com

Please do your research very carefully before jumping in. This is not your typical PC monitor. I would argue it is worse because of the constant shifting of brightness (which inevitably impacts contrast as well). But your mileage may vary. For me, I couldn't just live with all of the limitations when I can just use the 34WK95U.

 

[Ninja Dom]

what the hell, i just received a new option in refresh rates that previously wasn't there: "variable refresh 48-144Hz" ?!
Before i had only fixed values. (Mini M1)

What's up with that?

New with the macOS Monterey update. It’s the closest thing we can get to ProMotion, now that Apple are implementing that on Macs.

 

[Ninja Dom]

Yes

Then I have no idea why HDR in YouTube in Safari doesn’t work for me.

 

[Toss4]

Auto Brightness is a must because my office is not always equally lit. In the morning, there's more sunlight than in the evening, and the monitor also needs to be brighter. LG 34WK95U does have auto-brightness.

And also brightness on this TV cannot be adjusted from the keyboard, or even from MacOS itself. I have to use the included remote and jump through a bunch of menus to get to the one that can control brightness on the TV itself. Needless to say, this is very cumbersome.

But the biggest problem is the overly aggressive ABL. If you have more white elements on the screen, the brightness of the entire panel decreases very significantly. I have measured that a totally white background is just barely about 400 nits at most. Also if there are fewer white regions, then brightness ramps up. The max I measured was 1000 nits. 400 to 1000 nits is blinding!

This is typically not very important if you are watching movies, but honestly, working with computer user interfaces that have a varying amount of high contrast elements can cause eye strain. Also any color-critical work goes right out of the window because whole brightness shift affects color accuracy a lot.

And I am not alone in my finding. The overly aggressive ABL implementation in the CX 48 makes it a non-starter for me. I need my monitor to have a stable brightness level for color-critical works. Here's a thread on LTT about this issue:

LG CX OLED auto dim help

My friend just buy LG CX48 OLED not too long ago and he doesn't like it one bit. One issue with this OLED that I discovered later on is that it has a basically terrible brightness in SDR mode (250 nid and less) and just decent in HDR, which make it horrible as a PC gaming monitor but worst part i...

linustechtips.com

Please do your research very carefully before jumping in. This is not your typical PC monitor. I would argue it is worse because of the constant shifting of brightness (which inevitably impacts contrast as well). But your mileage may vary. For me, I couldn't just live with all of the limitations when I can just use the 34WK95U.

Why are you even arguing about a monitor you don't even own in a thread about 4K120Hz on Apple's M1 silicon? I own a CX 48 so I think I know a bit more about using it as a monitor than you do. It's also not difficult to get it accurate if you own a calibration device, which I assume anyone doing color-critical work would already own.

I've turned off the ABL - not recommended, but if you use it with a low enough brightness I assume it's not going to cause any problems. But let's not derail this thread further.

 

[zerozoneice]

New with the macOS Monterey update. It’s the closest thing we can get to ProMotion, now that Apple are implementing that on Macs.

so should we use it or stick to "forced" 144Hz value?

 

[bill-p]

Why are you even arguing about a monitor you don't even own in a thread about 4K120Hz on Apple's M1 silicon? I own a CX 48 so I think I know a bit more about using it as a monitor than you do. It's also not difficult to get it accurate if you own a calibration device, which I assume anyone doing color-critical work would already own.

I've turned off the ABL - not recommended, but if you use it with a low enough brightness I assume it's not going to cause any problems. But let's not derail this thread further.

I have the CX. How do you think I know?

Care to share how you disabled ABL?

 

[jasoncarle]

Then I have no idea why HDR in YouTube in Safari doesn’t work for me.

I wish I could help but I have no idea either.

 

[Artagra]

Care to share how you disabled ABL?

"ABL" can't be disabled, ASBL and ANSD can be - more details on this thread. For me this made a huge difference:
https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/comments/kb094w
The CX / C1 have serious tradeoffs as a monitor, but for some people those trade offs are worth it (or can be mitigated). And it's (currently) the only way to get a 4k120hz image with per pixel lighting. I agree people should be aware of the limitations before getting it - for me personally having very good response times, 4k120hz per pixel lighting, and awesome HDR is worth the trade off of no auto on and off and WRGB sub pixel structure resulting in image quality differences. ABL is a non-issue as I run at lower OLED light levels (and have a light controlled office to make the possible), ANSD I don't notice, ASBL would've been a deal breaker but I could disable.

Now if only I could get 4k120 working on my Mac in addition to PC

 

[bill-p]

Thanks! I'm asking in relation to what @Toss4 is claiming: that he can disable ABL.

I bought both LG CX 48 and 55. Ultimately, the 55 is still staying in my bedroom, and the 48 went back. I couldn't live with the limitations... knowing I can use and enjoy the LG 34WK95U as the better overall work monitor.

I have an M1 Pro device now, and I suspect M1 Pro can do 4K120Hz, since it fully supports Thunderbolt 4 specs. I gotta get the USB-C adapter back from my dad, though. I gave it to him to use with his M1 Mac Mini. That same Club3D adapter when used with the 2019 MacBook Pro 16" could actually get 4K 120fps to work under Bootcamp.

 

[Ninja Dom]

so should we use it or stick to "forced" 144Hz value?

I haven’t tried it. I’ve seen the option but I’m sticking to my “forced” 120Hz value. Unless I hear otherwise about how variable is better.

 

[zerozoneice]

dumb question: is there any difference if i hook up my M28U using usb-c to usb-c or usb-c to DP?
i remember initially i used usb-c to DP and it created an extra Dell monitor color profile besides the M28U....

i had occasional flickering off/on (99% after coming back from sleep) using both connections.
i went down to 120Hz and still get that annoying display off/on.
any way to cure that?

by the way, coming back from sleep not working using the monitor KVM hub, i have to shortpress the Mini power button in order to wake it up.

 

[kasakka]

Thanks! I'm asking in relation to what @Toss4 is claiming: that he can disable ABL.

I have an M1 Pro device now, and I suspect M1 Pro can do 4K120Hz, since it fully supports Thunderbolt 4 specs. I gotta get the USB-C adapter back from my dad, though. I gave it to him to use with his M1 Mac Mini. That same Club3D adapter when used with the 2019 MacBook Pro 16" could actually get 4K 120fps to work under Bootcamp.

As far as I know ABL cannot be disabled even from the service menu. But ASBL can be and that solves the major problem with my LG CX in desktop use. ABL does not kick in so easily when using low brightness setting (20-30 OLED light) like I do in desktop use with SDR mode.

If the Club3D adapter which I have works under Bootcamp then it's clearly not a hardware issue but a MacOS driver issue. I expect it is not fixed on the M1 Pro/Max either and I have low hopes for Apple to actually fix it because it's a bit of a niche thing.

 

[zerozoneice]

I haven’t tried it. I’ve seen the option but I’m sticking to my “forced” 120Hz value. Unless I hear otherwise about how variable is better.

seen it on reddit, apparently if we turn off adaptive-sync (amd freesync) on the monitor, the variable refresh option will disappear?!

 

[frisbfreek]

As far as I know ABL cannot be disabled even from the service menu. But ASBL can be and that solves the major problem with my LG CX in desktop use. ABL does not kick in so easily when using low brightness setting (20-30 OLED light) like I do in desktop use with SDR mode.

If the Club3D adapter which I have works under Bootcamp then it's clearly not a hardware issue but a MacOS driver issue. I expect it is not fixed on the M1 Pro/Max either and I have low hopes for Apple to actually fix it because it's a bit of a niche thing.

Wait isn’t Bootcamp gone from M1 macs?

 

[bill-p]

Wait isn’t Bootcamp gone from M1 macs?

This was Bootcamp on the 16" MacBook with Intel processor. The same MacBook couldn't get 4K 120Hz under MacOS even though it worked in Windows. There was some limitation with MacOS back then. I'm not sure if that limitation has been lifted in Monterey since I no longer have the 16" MacBook.

 

[threeseed]

For 4K 120Hz I am confused how this works:
Thunderbolt -> DP 1.4 Monitor

But this doesn't:
Thunderbolt -> Dock/Adapter e.g. HP G2 with DP 1.4 -> HDMI 2.1

Doesn't OSX just think the Dock/Adapter is some generic DP1.4 monitor ?

 

[joevt]

For 4K 120Hz I am confused how this works:
Thunderbolt -> DP 1.4 Monitor

But this doesn't:
Thunderbolt -> Dock/Adapter e.g. HP G2 with DP 1.4 -> HDMI 2.1

Doesn't OSX just think the Dock/Adapter is some generic DP1.4 monitor ?

It should work. Maybe the driver is mistaken about the limit of the adapter or Apple hardcoded the limit - to save the feature for a future Mac?

But first you should make sure the HP G2 has the latest firmware if you are using the DP1, DP2, USB-C with DisplayPort Alt Mode, or VGA ports. The firmware version doesn't matter if you use the downstream Thunderbolt port for the adapter.

 

[threeseed]

It should work. Maybe the driver is mistaken about the limit of the adapter or Apple hardcoded the limit - to save the feature for a future Mac?

But first you should make sure the HP G2 has the latest firmware if you are using the DP1, DP2, USB-C with DisplayPort Alt Mode, or VGA ports. The firmware version doesn't matter if you use the downstream Thunderbolt port for the adapter.

I've never heard of anyone being able to get a HDMI connected device running at 4K 120Hz through any means.

 

[kasakka]

For 4K 120Hz I am confused how this works:
Thunderbolt -> DP 1.4 Monitor

But this doesn't:
Thunderbolt -> Dock/Adapter e.g. HP G2 with DP 1.4 -> HDMI 2.1

Doesn't OSX just think the Dock/Adapter is some generic DP1.4 monitor ?

The adapter needs to convert DP 1.4 to HDMI 2.1, it uses DSC for this to make up for the bandwidth limitation of DP 1.4 but it seems like it requires something else too or else it would work. Considering on the Intel MBPs it works in Windows, it points to an issue with MacOS display drivers. Which is again why I speculate it's to do with the pixel clock being limited to 600 MHz.

 

[threeseed]

Which is again why I speculate it's to do with the pixel clock being limited to 600 MHz.

The confusing part is then why it works for a direct DP 1.4 connection.

 

[Toss4]

As far as I know ABL cannot be disabled even from the service menu. But ASBL can be and that solves the major problem with my LG CX in desktop use. ABL does not kick in so easily when using low brightness setting (20-30 OLED light) like I do in desktop use with SDR mode.

If the Club3D adapter which I have works under Bootcamp then it's clearly not a hardware issue but a MacOS driver issue. I expect it is not fixed on the M1 Pro/Max either and I have low hopes for Apple to actually fix it because it's a bit of a niche thing.

Yes I was talking about ASBL. Not really using high enough OLED Light for ABL to cause any noticeable difference. ASBL was definitely noticeable though in desktop use.

 

[Artagra]

The confusing part is then why it works for a direct DP 1.4 connection.

If someone can post their EDID info for a 4k120 DP1.4 screen, that would help us narrow it down a bit.

 

[Lazylex]

If someone can post their EDID info for a 4k120 DP1.4 screen, that would help us narrow it down a bit.

Ask and ye shall receive.
LG 27GN950 running on a USB-C to DP 1.4 cable, at 4k 144hz (Variable and Fixed available)

Spoiler: EDID

EDID report generated by SwitchResX Version 4.11.2 (Apple Silicon) (Build 2101) for display 27GN950


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-----------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------
Valid EDID block #0: checksum ok
Valid EDID block #1: checksum ok
Valid EDID block #2: checksum ok

-----------------------------------------------------
------------------- MAIN EDID BLOCK -----------------
-----------------------------------------------------

EDID Version........1.4
Manufacturer........GSM (1E6D)
Product ID..........23450 (5B9A)
Serial Number.......000006BA

Manufactured........Week 7 of year 2020
Max H Size..........60 cm
Max V Size..........34 cm
Gamma...............2.20

Display Supported Features:
---------------------------
Power Management: Active off
Power Management: Suspend
Power Management: Standby


Display type:
-------------
RGB 4:4:4 & YCrCb 4:4:4 & YCrCb 4:2:2 Color Encoding Formats
Display is continuous frequency
Default color space is not sRGB standard


Input signal & sync:
--------------------
Digital Input
10 Bits per Primary Color
DisplayPort interface


Color info:
-----------
Red x = 0.680 Green x = 0.268 Blue x = 0.151 White x = 0.312
Red y = 0.313 Green y = 0.685 Blue y = 0.055 White y = 0.329

Established Timings supported:
------------------------------
# 0: 640 x 480 @ 60Hz
# 1: 800 x 600 @ 60Hz
# 2: 1024 x 768 @ 60Hz

Standard Timing supported:
--------------------------
# 0: 1920 x 1080 @ 60Hz (D1C0)
# 1: 1024 x 768 @ 60Hz (6140)
# 2: 800 x 600 @ 60Hz (4540)
# 3: 640 x 480 @ 60Hz (3140)

Monitor Description blocks:
---------------------------
Descriptor #0 - Timing definition:
Mode = 3840 x 2160 @ 59.997Hz
Pixel Clock............. 533.25 MHz Not Interlaced

Horizontal Vertical
Active.................. 3840 pixels 2160 lines
Front Porch............. 48 pixels 3 lines
Sync Width.............. 32 pixels 5 lines
Back Porch.............. 80 pixels 54 lines
Blanking................ 160 pixels 62 lines
Total................... 4000 pixels 2222 lines
Scan Rate............... 133.312 kHz 59.997 Hz
Image Size.............. 600 mm 340 mm
Border.................. 0 pixels 0 lines

Sync: Digital separate with
* Negative vertical polarity
* Positive horizontal polarity

Descriptor #1 - Monitor range:
Horizontal frequency range.......335-335 kHz
Vertical frequency range.........48-144 Hz
Maximum bandwidth range..........1340 MHz
Range Limits Only

Descriptor #2 - Monitor name:
27GN950

Descriptor #3 - Serial number:
007NTXR01722


-----------------------------------------------------
------------ EXTENSION EDID BLOCK 1 ---------------
-----------------------------------------------------

CTA-EXT: CTA 861 Series Extension:
----------------------------------
Revision:...........................3
First DTD block at offset...........41
Display Supports:
Basic audio
YCbCr 4:4:4
YCbCr 4:2:2

Data Block #1
Audio Data Block
Supported format: Linear PCM, on 2 channels
Supported sample rates (kHz): 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz
Supported sample sizes (bits): 16 bit, 20 bit, 24 bit


Data Block #2
Speaker allocation data block
Speaker map:
FL/FR - Front Left/Right

Data Block #3
Video Type: standard CTA Timings
VIC # 0: ( 16) 1920 x 1080 @ 60Hz - 16:9
VIC # 1: ( 4) 1280 x 720 @ 60Hz - 16:9
VIC # 2: ( 3) 720 x 480 @ 60Hz - 16:9
VIC # 3: ( 1) 640 x 480 @ 60Hz - 4:3

Data Block #4
Extended Data Block: Video Capability Data Block
CE scan behaviour: Always Underscanned
IT scan behaviour: Always Underscanned
PT scan behaviour: Always Underscanned
RGB quantization: Selectable (via AVI Q)
YCbCr quantization: No Data

Data Block #5
Extended Data Block: Colorimetry Data Block
BT2020YCC
BT2020RGB

Data Block #6
Extended Data Block: HDR static metadata data block
Electro optical transfer functions:
Traditional gamma - SDR luminance range
SMPTE ST2084
Supported static metadata descriptors:
Static metadata type 1
Desired content max luminance: 115 (603.666 cd/m^2)
Desired content max frame-average luminance: 96 (400.000 cd/m^2)
Desired content min luminance: 33 (0.101 cd/m^2)

Data Block #7
Vendor specific Data Block - Vendor Identifier: 00:00:1A (AMD)
Payload:
02 0B 30 90 00 04 73 21 73 '..0...s!s'

Detailed Timing Blocks - 1 is native
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------------ EXTENSION EDID BLOCK 2 ---------------
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DID-EXT: Display ID Extension:
------------------------------
DisplayID version........1.2
Display Product Type: Standalone display device

Detailed Timings Block type 1
Detailed Timing #1 in Block
Mode = 3840 x 2160 @ 143.999Hz
Pixel Clock............. 1328.25 MHz Not Interlaced

Horizontal Vertical
Active.................. 3840 pixels 2160 lines
Front Porch............. 48 pixels 3 lines
Sync Width.............. 32 pixels 5 lines
Back Porch.............. 80 pixels 138 lines
Blanking................ 160 pixels 146 lines
Total................... 4000 pixels 2306 lines
Scan Rate............... 332.062 kHz 143.999 Hz

Is default Mode
3D stereo: no
Sync: Digital separate with
* Negative vertical polarity
* Positive horizontal polarity

Detailed Timing #2 in Block
Mode = 3840 x 2160 @ 94.981Hz
Pixel Clock............. 858.25 MHz Not Interlaced

Horizontal Vertical
Active.................. 3840 pixels 2160 lines
Front Porch............. 48 pixels 3 lines
Sync Width.............. 32 pixels 5 lines
Back Porch.............. 80 pixels 91 lines
Blanking................ 160 pixels 99 lines
Total................... 4000 pixels 2259 lines
Scan Rate............... 214.562 kHz 94.981 Hz

Is not default Mode
3D stereo: no
Sync: Digital separate with
* Negative vertical polarity
* Positive horizontal polarity