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genexx

macrumors regular
Nov 11, 2022
221
124
I have six Samsung NVME drives on two cards in my 7,1 NcMP. These were first installed in my 5,1 cMP. They are four 970 EVOs and Two 970 Pros. I've never had issues with these drives.

Lou
If they are formatted hfs there is no Problem. Also if you do not use them as Boot Drive and do not change Data Stored extensively this is not being a big Problem.

Seem to work fine here, no slowdowns with boot - not that I (re)boot the machine more often than every month or two, or mount problems.

View attachment 2394371
This is a new Generation of the Samsung NVME Series and i am not sure about the Controller they use in this one, so you can have luck and it has not the Problems of the phoenix Controller.

The Problem relates to the Phoenix Controller in combination with the APFS File System ( HFS has no Probs)

I'm now no longer having the issue with two 980 Pro NVMEs. I've been rebooting into windows and back and forwards without dramas.

I am on MacOS 15b2.

So therefore it could also be Possible for Apple to have addressed this Problem in 15 or just accidentally solved it if it is solved.

Good Luck for everybody !

I have no Samsung NVME to test except the Samsung PM981 Series (Lenovo Laptop / HP PC ) which leads to immediate Kernel Panic if it boots at all on MacOS.
 

H2SO4

macrumors 603
Nov 4, 2008
5,828
7,103
I would likely remind you of the Problem with most if not all Samsung NVME Drives incompatibility with Apple´s Trim on APFS in connection to the Phoenix Controller of the Samsung NVME Drives.

This is also leading to an almost unusable System after Time if you use an NVME from Samsung with the Phoenix Controller because Trim at Boot can Take up to 20 Minutes.

I do not get why in this World anybody is using Samsung NVME Drives in or at a Mac in any shape or form.

This does not relate to most of the SATA SSD but also there are some incompatible ones.

Best Buy for NVME in and at Mac is WD SN770 / WD SN 850 also with the X.
Best Buy for SSD is Crucial MX500.

For Details read this Post from trs96 @ tonymycx86:

Even the Crucial P5 NVME does not have the Trim Problems but does not work with the Energy States in and at Mac also in external Enclosure well and sucks continuously 8W.
This is also present with the Samsung NVME´s and does lead to heating and in a Laptop to Battery drain.

This knowledge is old but trs96 sums it up mostly about Samsung and WD.

In the Teminal you can Enter the following to see how long Trim took at boot for each Disk:
Bash:
log show --predicate "processID == 0" | grep spaceman
I can imagine there is no easy way to determine what type of controller a drive has?
 

genexx

macrumors regular
Nov 11, 2022
221
124
I can imagine there is no easy way to determine what type of controller a drive has?
There are more Controller on Samsung drives with Problems since MacOS 12 Monterey ( PM981 Panic was also before and persists ) I have only WD SN 570/770/850 Drives and they all work as they should.

For Details read this Post from trs96 @ tonymycx86:

1. Avoid Samsung NVMe drives


Prior to macOS Monterey, Samsung drives worked seemingly without issue. We don't know what changed in macOS 12 but we do know that Samsung's proprietary NVMe SSD controllers do not work well with macOS Monterey or Ventura. It doesn't look like a firmware fix from Samsung is ever going to be released. Here's a few examples of their drives that will potentially lead to ultra long macOS boot times. Some have reported six to seven minutes.

1669893247146.png



This is TRIM and APFS related. Disabling TRIM is not recommended. If you already own a Samsung NVMe, convert it to a Windows/Linux drive or a scratch drive. Do not put your Samsung M.2 NVMe into an adapter and use it as an external drive for your hackintosh or Apple Mac. It will also have extremely slow load/mount times when used this way.

Acasis, who makes Mac compatible NVMe enclosures, warns their customers about using Samsung 970 EVO (Plus) drives with their product. Note that the WD SN570, SN770 and SN850(X) perform the very best of any drives.

Screen Shot.jpg


Read about Acidanthera's research on the Samsung "TRIM Bug" by clicking here

The following thread on tonymacx86.com demonstrates how write speeds are reduced to extremely
slow levels when using a Samsung NVMe with an APFS formatted drive.

Slow random writes on nvme ssd

After moving my macOS from Samsung 970 EVO to Samsung 980 Pro, I noticed an issue with very slow random writes (see benchmark screenshots) on my main partition (APFS). I've plugged in the 970 EVO back and tested again, but the results were still far from ideal (better than in 980, but still...

2. Choose a WD Blue or Black NVMe SSD

From the cumulative experience of hundreds of WD NVMe users here at tonymacx86.com over the past two years, we can conclude they are fast and reliable when used as a macOS boot drive. Specific WD models with their proprietary "in-house" controller are designed to be macOS compatible.

Screen Shot 13.jpg



Note that the SN750 SE has a lower cost Phison controller. Any of the other WD models in that chart are a better choice as they have WD's in house controller. Proven to be fast and reliable when used as a maOS boot drive. Some have reported problems using the older SN750 (non-SE) with newer chipset boards like Z690/790 so definitely go with a newer Gen 4 WD drive to have the best chance at success with those. SN850(X) and SN770 are gen 4 drives.

3. Choosing a Specific WD NVMe Drive

The WD drives are all fast at reading data. About 2900+ MB/s read speeds. The write speeds will vary greatly. The larger capacity drives will all offer faster write speeds than the smaller 250GB versions. Since prices have gotten so low in 2023, no one should be buying a 250GB NVMe for use as a boot drive. Spend a few dollars more and get the 500GB version if you have a limited build budget. Most people should be opting for the 1TB capacity drive.

Another consideration. Does the drive have a DRAM cache ? The SN850 and SN850X do. The other drives listed above do not. If you use your hackintosh for professional video or photo editing, if you use programs such as Logic Pro, you definitely want to buy the WD SN850X because of it's dedicated DRAM cache.

1670333003700.png



All of the WD Black drives include the word "Gaming" in their description. Some even have game titles like Call of Duty on the label. They aren't just for gamers. They can be used by content creators or anyone that wants the fastest read and write speeds for their hackintosh. The fastest and most durable drive is the WD SN850X. It's their latest "high speed" PCIe 4.0 NVMe. Anyone with a Z590 or Z690 motherboard should have this one at the top of their SSD buyer's list. Here's WD's gamer-centric description of the SN850X.

Get the Ultimate Gaming Edge
Insane speeds up to 7,300 MB/s deliver top-tier performance with ridiculously short load times.

This description is inaccurate. How fast your game loads doesn't do anything to give you an edge in playing that game.
The main reason WD markets to gamers is because they spend a lot of money for the fastest hardware they can get. The reason these gamers want fast NVMe drives is because some modern games (Call of Duty Black Ops) are 250 GB in size ! Try to load that up from a 2TB mechanical HDD and it's a very long wait.

Make sure to use a heatsink. Any drive that operates at close to 7,000 MB/s will heat up. Most new motherboards include them on top of the M.2 slots on the motherboard. Upgrade the firmware once you receive it. Easily done in Windows 10/11. Buy the 2TB size if you will be constantly writing data to this drive. Rated at 1,200 TBW !

4. What about the WD Blue SN570 ?

This drive is the lowest price per GB of any of the recommended WD drives. It is PCIe Gen 3 and comes in sizes up to 2 TB. If you have an older PCIe 3.0 motherboard (Intel 10th gen or older) and need a large 1-2 TB boot drive, this is a great lower cost choice. With a 500GB SN570 selling for $33 there's no good reason to opt for a Sata based SSD as your macOS boot drive. Everyone with a relatively new M.2 motherboard can afford this.

Screen Shot.jpg



5. The WD Black SN770 Drive offers the Best Price/Performance

6. How Many GB/TB should I get ?


The sweet spot for SSD capacity is 1TB. Getting a larger 2TB or even 4TB size won't get you any faster read/write speeds. If you opt for the lowest cost 250 GB drive though, it will greatly reduce the speed and endurance of the drive. The TBW rating goes way up as the drive capacity gets larger. If your budget is small, at least get a 500 GB drive to begin with.

For the SSD Database/Spreadsheet on Google Docs: Click here to see the Google Doc


7. Do not buy WD Green Drives (for use as your macOS boot drive)

"Going Green" is not a good idea when buying your NVMe boot drive. It costs a few dollars less but performs worse. It has a shorter 3 year warranty than the 5 years for a WD Blue SN570. The green designation is just marketing nonsense.

1670591952160.png



The WD Green Edition SN350 is QLC NAND Flash based. While it can work as a boot drive, it shouldn't be your first choice. It costs about the same as the TLC based WD Blue SN570. Just because they label it "green" doesn't make it any more energy efficient. You can buy a new 500GB SN570 for just $26.99 today (9-23). Prices may have changed at any time.

Triple-level cell (TLC) – Holds three bits per cell. Has 1.5x more capacity than MLC memory.

Quad-level cell (QLC) – Holds four bits per cell. Has 1.3x more capacity than TLC memory.

Benefits of TLC

TLC devices can offer a number of advantages that QLC devices cannot match, including but not limited to the following:

Speed – In general, TLC performs most tasks quicker than QLC.

Durability – Compared with QLC memory, TLC needs to go through fewer program/erase cycles, precisely because it has fewer bits stored in each cell. This can be a serious issue because one of the innate weaknesses of flash-based memory is the possibility of damage to the floating gates, causing premature wear to NAND cells. Although there are ways to mitigate the harm caused by this phenomenon—such as wear leveling and data buffering—TLC can be expected to last longer than QLC.

Better for write-intensive workloads – TLC is less likely to encounter errors in write performance, and less reliant on labor-intensive error correction, than QLC. Therefore, TLC is generally the recommended choice for write-intensive duties.

In Summary: These are the WD Black (Gen 4) and Blue drives to choose from. Ranked from fastest to slowest in overall performance. All of them utilize SanDisk NAND Flash and are fully macOS Monterey and Ventura compatible.
  1. WD Black SN850X (Highest rated performance and endurance)
  2. WD Black SN770 (DRAM less drive that uses HMB)
  3. WD Black SN850 (Older version of the SN850X)
  4. WD Blue SN570 (PCIe Gen 3)
NVMe table.jpg



Here's an easy to read chart that compares the top 3 WD Black Drives. The SN770 does tend to perform better than the SN850 in the PC Mark suite of SSD tests even though the numbers from the manufacturer say otherwise.

Screen Shot 1.jpg



The WD Black SN750 may still be available but I would opt for the newer SN770. It has replaced the 750 model.
Avoid the SN750 SE model as was mentioned previously. It's not known how well it will perform as a boot drive over the longer term when the drive is filled to 80% or more of capacity.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,341
2,974
Australia
samsung990.png


APFS 990 Pro (one of two) that's been in service for some months now under Ventura. Hasn't shown any appreciable slowdowns, hasn't failed to mount on boot. Benches faster than the Apple storage. What can I say?

Highpoint are even selling cards pre-populated with 990 Pros as specific Mac versions.

Call me a skeptic, but could it not just be that the problems hackintosh folks are having are more specific to the hackintosh/multiboot/opencore-ness, rather than the Samsung-ness of their setups?

Looking around, I also see a lot of "I copied my system to the new SSD and it has problems" or "I imported my user account, and now it has problems" - not a lot of "I did a clean install, setting up a new user account from scratch on OS-supported hardware", etc.
 

flowrider

macrumors 604
Nov 23, 2012
7,321
3,003
If they are formatted hfs there is no Problem. Also if you do not use them as Boot Drive and do not change Data Stored extensively this is not being a big Problem.

I do use some of them as boot drives formatted as APFS with TRIM enabled.

Lou
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
So therefore it could also be Possible for Apple to have addressed this Problem in 15 or just accidentally solved it if it is solved.
I hope so.

I haven’t seen anything to indicate exactly they have done a fix. A list of bug fixes would be nice.
 
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Natalia22

macrumors member
Nov 12, 2022
42
83
@авро707
I'm sorry, in a new topic you write about a kernel panic, possibly due to the video card.
If this is the same mac that you write about here, then I can assume the reason is NVME disks. I also received kernel panic messages after the system failed to boot to NVME.
I spent a lot of time on different combinations with MP components to eliminate video cards too.
 
Last edited:

Natalia22

macrumors member
Nov 12, 2022
42
83
Acasis, who makes Mac compatible NVMe enclosures, warns their customers about using Samsung 970 EVO (Plus) drives with their product. Note that the WD SN570, SN770 and SN850(X) perform the very best of any drives.

Снимок экрана.jpg
Same with last year's purchase of an NVMe Acasis case.
The seller assured about compatibility with the 970 EVO PLUS, that they conducted tests with these drives on MBP and everything works fine.
I bought it, the read/write speed in macOS and Windows is 1/3 of the declared disk speed.
An engineer was sent to check. He said that this was the first time I tested Acasis with a MacPro, it was strange that the speed was low, and he advised me to buy a drive from WD.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,341
2,974
Australia
Same with last year's purchase of an NVMe Acasis case.
The seller assured about compatibility with the 970 EVO PLUS, that they conducted tests with these drives on MBP and everything works fine.
I bought it, the read/write speed in macOS and Windows is 1/3 of the declared disk speed.
An engineer was sent to check. He said that this was the first time I tested Acasis with a MacPro, it was strange that the speed was low, and he advised me to buy a drive from WD.

Again, call me a skeptic, but maybe the problem is Acasis' hardware, not Samsung's - like the way Sonnet claim NVME isn't supported on a 7,1 Mac Pro with any OS later than Monterey, because their cards have issues?
 

Natalia22

macrumors member
Nov 12, 2022
42
83
I wrote about Acasis for information so that MP owners do not buy it for the 970 EVO PLUS.
Of course, you are right that the problem may be with the Acasis hardware. I didn't experiment anymore and didn't buy a WD drive.

On the HighPoint controller, problems with disks began already in Monterey. I learned to work around the problem and almost forgot about it. I work with what I have. Over the last year of use, I booted from the Apple disk only twice.
 
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avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
If this is the same mac that you write about here, then I can assume the reason is NVME disks.

It only did that when I swapped GPUs so I don't think it's related. I don't have the NVME issues anymore, everything seems to be running properly. In any case, the GPU related kernel panic is uncommon. I'm going to swap that card into another computer next week.
 
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LukeMacPro

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jun 4, 2022
18
9
I’ve installed Sequoia Beta2, then used migration assistant, onto one of the internal NVMe blades (owc adapter not sonnet) as a secondary OS to Sonoma, which is still on the internal apple ssd.

So far, if I boot continuously into Sequoia b2 my Sonnet RAID NVMe has mounted every time. If I boot back into Sonoma the drive fails to mount every time and is then lost and needs to be rebuilt even if I switch back to Sequoia.

This is very interesting and I’ll report back if I get any fails in Sequoia but so far so good!
 
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Natalia22

macrumors member
Nov 12, 2022
42
83
It seems that my situation is a little better, after the next (early) Sonoma update, the main system began to work flawlessly, all disks mounted instantly.
The loss of disks remained only on the external system.
 

bax2023

macrumors regular
Nov 14, 2023
124
158
Serbia
15.0 Beta 2 (24A5279h) upgraded the firmware and the OS loader versions to:
System Firmware Version: 2065.0.0.0.0 (iBridge: 22.16.10309.5.2,0)
OS Loader Version: 582~390

macOS 15.0 Beta 3 (24A5289g) upgraded iBridge and OS Loader Version.
System Firmware Version: 2065.0.0.0.0 (iBridge: 22.16.10319.5.1,0)
OS Loader Version: 582~532
 
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H2SO4

macrumors 603
Nov 4, 2008
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I can't wait to jump on this new OS. The fact that you guys are reporting far less disconnects is reason enough for me.
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
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I can't wait to jump on this new OS. The fact that you guys are reporting far less disconnects is reason enough for me.

Don’t jump just yet, far too many things are not working properly at the moment.

My W6800X duos work in Sonoma 14.5 no problem but I have kernel panics in 15b2 and 15b3. Not happy! Remains to be seen if Apple solves it.
 

H2SO4

macrumors 603
Nov 4, 2008
5,828
7,103
Don’t jump just yet, far too many things are not working properly at the moment.

My W6800X duos work in Sonoma 14.5 no problem but I have kernel panics in 15b2 and 15b3. Not happy! Remains to be seen if Apple solves it.
I mean the GM version. But yes, I'll check major compatibility first.
What's ironic is that I never had the problem at all until I read about it in this thread.
 

PortableFishy

macrumors newbie
Apr 8, 2007
24
18
I just purchased a Mac Pro 7,1 and was planning on picking up the Sonnet M.2 4x4 PCIe (Silent) Card along with some 4TB NVMe SSDs.

Does it look like this problem will manifest itself if I only have MacOS 15 Sequoia installed on the Mac Pro's main Apple SSD with the NVMe SSDs on the Sonnet used as JBODs? I don't think I will have other MacOS versions or Windows/Bootcamp installed on other drives.

I learned a lot about this issue reading through this thread and really do hope that there will be a fix soon that will help everyone in the community to get their Mac Pro's working properly again. It definitely seems like one of the more risky and disruptive issues that may unfortunately result in data loss.

 

H2SO4

macrumors 603
Nov 4, 2008
5,828
7,103
I just purchased a Mac Pro 7,1 and was planning on picking up the Sonnet M.2 4x4 PCIe (Silent) Card along with some 4TB NVMe SSDs.

Does it look like this problem will manifest itself if I only have MacOS 15 Sequoia installed on the Mac Pro's main Apple SSD with the NVMe SSDs on the Sonnet used as JBODs? I don't think I will have other MacOS versions or Windows/Bootcamp installed on other drives.

I learned a lot about this issue reading through this thread and really do hope that there will be a fix soon that will help everyone in the community to get their Mac Pro's working properly again. It definitely seems like one of the more risky and disruptive issues that may unfortunately result in data loss.

Nobody knows. All we do here is post our experiences. If Apple mention it in their release notes then we can say, yes, it's at least being addressed. They haven't.
all I'd say is that if it's your production machine, don't do it.
 

bax2023

macrumors regular
Nov 14, 2023
124
158
Serbia
I just purchased a Mac Pro 7,1 and was planning on picking up the Sonnet M.2 4x4 PCIe (Silent) Card along with some 4TB NVMe SSDs.

Does it look like this problem will manifest itself if I only have MacOS 15 Sequoia installed on the Mac Pro's main Apple SSD with the NVMe SSDs on the Sonnet used as JBODs? I don't think I will have other MacOS versions or Windows/Bootcamp installed on other drives.

I learned a lot about this issue reading through this thread and really do hope that there will be a fix soon that will help everyone in the community to get their Mac Pro's working properly again. It definitely seems like one of the more risky and disruptive issues that may unfortunately result in data loss.

It definitely seems that Sequoia addressed this issue, since I didn't have a single issue since its first release. Apple doesn't mention the fix in any relase notes maybe because they want to cover this up or simple they don't know how or what fixed it. So, until final release, I won't use it as my main machine. I will say it again, I have Sequoia installed on 3rd part SSD connected to internal SATA port not on Apple SSD.
 
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