MP 14,8 Mac Pro 2023 is a scam

[goMac]

If I was buying the new Mac Pro I would get it with the 76 core GPU and 192GB unified RAM which makes it $9,599. To get the DIY workstation up to par with a 36 core Xeon W9-3475X, 128 GB DDR5 ECC RAM, and a Radeon Pro W7900 with 48 GB VRAM pushes it to about $10,705. The PC workstation would be faster, but costs more and can't run macOS. The Mac Pro besides being non-upgradeable is a better buy.

The 13900k is faster than M2 Ultra. And it's much cheaper.

Is the 13900k a workstation chip? No. But neither is the M2 Ultra. The M2 Ultra doesn't have the PCIe lanes a workstation chip would have. It doesn't have the RAM capacity a workstation chip would have. It doesn't have the ECC a workstation chip would have.

There is no reason to price the Ultra against a workstation chip because M2 Ultra isn't in the workstation class.

 

[russell_314]

I find threads like this to be silly. The people that are buying the Mac Pro are buying it because it runs macOS. There is no Intel chip for macOS so that’s not even part of the discussion. If you want macOS and you want expandability then this is the only computer available.

You might say well, there’s Hackintosh. Yeah I’m sure some large corporation is going to use a pirated copy of macOS to save a few thousand dollars 🤦‍♂️

The only people that debate the PC vs Mac Pro are people who are never going to buy one. I mean sure I love debate and discussion but when it comes down to it, it’s completely irrelevant to the sale of this product.

 

[goMac]

I find threads like this to be silly. The people that are buying the Mac Pro are buying it because it runs macOS. There is no Intel chip for macOS so that’s not even part of the discussion. If you want macOS and you want expandability then this is the only computer available.

I don't think that's really capturing the issue here. If you had a macOS workflow that needed ECC, you've got no options now. If you have macOS workflow that required high end graphics, you've got no options now. If you had high RAM workflows you've got no options now.

There are decent number of people in the forum who are upset because they can't actually buy macOS anymore. It's not just "oh well I'm going to buy a PC because it's cheaper." It's "well I guess I have to buy a PC because it's the last machine left that fills the role I need."

 

[russell_314]

I don't think that's really capturing the issue here. If you had a macOS workflow that needed ECC, you've got no options now. If you have macOS workflow that required high end graphics, you're got no options now. If you had high RAM workflows you've got no options now.

There are decent number of people in the forum who are upset because they can't actually buy macOS anymore. It's not just "oh well I'm going to buy a PC because it's cheaper." It's "well I guess I have to buy a PC because it's the last machine left that fills the role I need."

What workflow requires ECC? I’m genuinely curious!

 

[impulse462]

The only people that debate the PC vs Mac Pro are people who are never going to buy one. I mean sure I love debate and discussion but when it comes down to it, it’s completely irrelevant to the sale of this product.

Totally incorrect and it is relevant to the sales of this product, the functionality of which has been intentionally (I can only assume) crippled.

 

[goMac]

What workflow requires ECC? I’m genuinely curious!

A lot of scientific workflows. Anywhere when accuracy is a concern. It's why ECC systems exist to begin with.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

A lot of scientific workflows. Anywhere when accuracy is a concern. It's why ECC systems exist to begin with.

If you run a scientific calculation that takes 200hrs of processing you may want to check the logs to see if an ecc error was thrown. Even if one was thrown, ecc fixes it on the fly, but I could see for a particularly important run, you might want a super clean run.

 

[MisterAndrew]

The 13900k is faster than M2 Ultra. And it's much cheaper.

Is the 13900k a workstation chip? No. But neither is the M2 Ultra. The M2 Ultra doesn't have the PCIe lanes a workstation chip would have. It doesn't have the RAM capacity a workstation chip would have. It doesn't have the ECC a workstation chip would have.

There is no reason to price the Ultra against a workstation chip because M2 Ultra isn't in the workstation class.

You're right. The M2 Ultra is comparable to gaming PC components, not workstation. Apple has re-focused who their target customers are for this new Mac Pro: artists. People who create video and music content. Apple must have decided that highly educated scientists and engineers make up a very small percentage of Mac Pro buyers. Anyone who needs large amounts of ECC RAM for scientific and mission critical uses needs to either stay with the 2019 Mac Pro or abandon Apple.

Considering that, the new Mac Pro is a scam, unless you're an artist that needs PCIe slots and macOS.

 

[soleblaze]

I’ve been curious about what workflows are run on a desktop Mac these days that require more than 192gb of ram. These days I’d expect that to be offloaded to a Linux server(s). Does anyone have this workflow or know anyone who does?

Also yeah, I agree this reeks of “we had to get something out so we shipped system that was designed for 4x max chip and not the 2x one we had to use”. I’m not even sure what workflows are still out there that’s require pcie cards over Thunderbolt hardware on an Apple silicon machine.

 

[russell_314]

Totally incorrect and it is relevant to the sales of this product, the functionality of which has been intentionally (I can only assume) crippled.

People that are not going to buy a product debating about the product are not relevant to the product sales. Me complaining about the choice Ferrari uses for the engine isn’t relevant to Ferrari sales.

 

[russell_314]

A lot of scientific workflows. Anywhere when accuracy is a concern. It's why ECC systems exist to begin with.

Specifically like? I could be wrong, but it seems like you’re just repeating what others have said. Even if there is some type of workflow that the Mac pro doesn’t suit that doesn’t mean it’s a bad computer. It’s just not suited for that purpose. I’m sure the people at Disney aren’t missing ECC RAM.

If there’s a market for ECC RAM on a Mac Pro, I’m sure Apple will fill that market

 

[Matty_TypeR]

Yes, that’s the big advantage. Except on the other hand in a few years all those components will become obsolete as new ones are introduced. So the logic board, CPU, SSD, RAM, and GPU will need to be upgraded. Let’s assume you used workstation components, not gaming PC parts, and assuming the prices are the same in a few years (as they are to the ones I added to my Newegg cart) upgrading those costs $6363. That’s assuming the case and power supply can be re-used.

The price of a new M3 or M4 Mac Pro with trade-in of the old M2 Mac Pro is probably not far off.

To buy a Mac pro 8.1 M2 ultra with 76 core GPU with 192GB memory, 4TB hard drive. comes out at £10.800.00 uk pounds, you can build one hell of a PC for that and upgrade it when 5090 comes out or the 8900XTX and add as much ram as you might need and storage.

A nice thread ripper system for less money, yes you cant run OSX but do you need to, or is it important it must run OSX because Hackintosh machines will also be no more, as will open core once OSX drops intel support.

The question is do you want to buy into a non upgradable machine every 3 years.

 

[impulse462]

I’ve been curious about what workflows are run on a desktop Mac these days that require more than 192gb of ram. These days I’d expect that to be offloaded to a Linux server(s). Does anyone have this workflow or know anyone who does?

Also yeah, I agree this reeks of “we had to get something out so we shipped system that was designed for 4x max chip and not the 2x one we had to use”. I’m not even sure what workflows are still out there that’s require pcie cards over Thunderbolt hardware on an Apple silicon machine.

Well if this computer supported more maybe we wouldn't have to use linux servers...at least I like doing that for running my expts.

Here's an example: 3D image reconstruction from dynamic imaging systems such as MRI or optical microscopy. There's a push in these fields to combine deep learning with so-called "physics-based" algorithms which reconstruct an image using deep learning + knowledge of the physical imaging system. To keep it short, running these iterative algorithms requires storing data in memory which adds up quickly if you use a lot of iterations.

If you choose to run this on a GPU youll face a bottleneck of having to go back and forth between GPU memory and system memory. Sometimes its easier to run the "physics-based" calculations stored in system memory while keep the deep learning stuff (e.g. model parameters) in GPU memory. There is research into more effecient algorithm techniques here to deal with limited GPU memory, but having up to 1TB of system memory on a workstation could be useful for quick and dirty experiment testing.

 

[mushy peas]

I find threads like this to be silly

I do too. Threads are using the words 'scam', 'crisis' and 'failure' and I can't for the life of me understand why these posts are expressing themselves so childishly. The rhetoric is completely over the top in my view. It's hard to believe that scientists and engineers are choosing these words.

you can build one hell of a PC for that and upgrade it when 5090 comes out or the 8900XTX and add as much ram as you might need and storage.

See, for all the complaints about ECC RAM, this gets to the cruz of the complaints - this is really about people wanting a Mac Pro that they can upgrade with new parts. That's not a pro computer, that's an enthusiasts computer. The Mac Pro might have been that once, but that was well over a decade ago and Apple aren't interested in that market.

The 13900k is faster than M2 Ultra. And it's much cheaper.

It's also a lot hotter, it's going to be noisier to keep the thing cool, and it's horribly inefficient. I get why Apple haven't bothered with those tradeoffs and it's clear why Intel have - they have nothing else going for them but to throw cores and boosted clocks at their ****** designs. It's the P4 all over again.

 

[Matty_TypeR]

See, for all the complaints about ECC RAM, this gets to the cruz of the complaints - this is really about people wanting a Mac Pro that they can upgrade with new parts. That's not a pro computer, that's an enthusiasts computer. The Mac Pro might have been that once, but that was well over a decade ago and Apple aren't interested in that market.

So Apples own words of upgrading your GFX card on the 2019 Mac pro, not decades ago was just a lie, yet produced 6800 duo cards after the initial release of the 7.1 mac pro?

Ummm interesting you think its decades ago. maybe 2 years.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Specifically like? I could be wrong, but it seems like you’re just repeating what others have said. Even if there is some type of workflow that the Mac pro doesn’t suit that doesn’t mean it’s a bad computer. It’s just not suited for that purpose. I’m sure the people at Disney aren’t missing ECC RAM.

If there’s a market for ECC RAM on a Mac Pro, I’m sure Apple will fill that market

Youre sure are you? Youre not saying anything different than those that defended the trashcan. So sure...

 

[goMac]

See, for all the complaints about ECC RAM, this gets to the cruz of the complaints - this is really about people wanting a Mac Pro that they can upgrade with new parts. That's not a pro computer, that's an enthusiasts computer. The Mac Pro might have been that once, but that was well over a decade ago and Apple aren't interested in that market.

This is kind of the problem with these threads. People toss out the reasons they don't want to talk about. Is the Mac Pro a bad system for everyone? No. There are going to be some audio people who are happy. There are likely some video engineers focused on transcoding that are happy.

But you can't just chuck out ECC concerns and make it some sort of pretend issue. There are some people who require ECC as part of their workload. There is an entire industry of ECC cards because some jobs require ECC memory on GPUs.

ECC memory is not some imaginary technology for an imaginary group of people. One of the biggest reasons to buy a Xeon anything was ECC memory. One of the big reasons Apple used Xeons to begin with was ECC memory, among other reasons that the new Mac Pro also doesn't support.

It's ok to go "well gosh clearly Apple doesn't want to be in that market anymore." Well duh - they aren't selling that machine anymore. That doesn't mean a bunch of people for whom the Mac Pro no longer works are just a bunch of idiots of that their complaints are illegitimate.

If Apple decided they didn't want to be in the laptop market anymore would you go over to the MacBook Pro forum and tell a bunch of annoyed MacBook users "look, I don't know why you're complaining, Apple just doesn't want to be in the market anymore. And why do you need laptops anyway."

It's also a lot hotter, it's going to be noisier to keep the thing cool, and it's horribly inefficient. I get why Apple haven't bothered with those tradeoffs and it's clear why Intel have - they have nothing else going for them but to throw cores and boosted clocks at their ****** designs. It's the P4 all over again.

Heat and efficiency don't matter when you need a machine to do a job. If Apple wants to release a much more efficient machine that can do the same job, that would be great. But they didn't so this is what people are left with.

I don't want to have a 13900k - I would much rather buy a Mac. But I don't think there is much other choice.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

See, for all the complaints about ECC RAM, this gets to the cruz of the complaints - this is really about people wanting a Mac Pro that they can upgrade with new parts. That's not a pro computer, that's an enthusiasts computer. The Mac Pro might have been that once, but that was well over a decade ago and Apple aren't interested in that market.

What the heck? Seriously? ONLY ENTHUSIASTS want to upgrade a computer. Mhmm. Those enthusiasts, they TOTALLY need their ECC ram upgrades /sarcasm

 

[goMac]

I do too. Threads are using the words 'scam', 'crisis' and 'failure' and I can't for the life of me understand why these posts are expressing themselves so childishly. The rhetoric is completely over the top in my view. It's hard to believe that scientists and engineers are choosing these words.

I usually would agree with you. But...

The Mac Pro's whole thing now is "It's a Mac Studio with 7 PCIe slots! You can fill it with PCIe cards!"

Except it only has enough bandwidth to run one 16x card at full bandwidth.

Shipping a machine claiming that you can fill it with a whole bunch of cards but only providing enough bandwidth to actually run one? That's kind of scammy.

Heck, look at the language they use:

Expand the capabilities. For the first time, breakthrough Apple silicon performance is combined with the versatility of PCI expansion. The new Mac Pro features seven expansion slots, six of which are PCIe gen 4 — providing twice the bandwidth for audio and video I/O, networking, and storage cards. The latest PCIe gen 4 SSD cards, for example, are capable of a colossal 26GB/s.

Notice how they tiptoe around actually addressing what the total bandwidth of the system is. Even "The latest PCIe gen 4 SSD cards, for example, are capable of a colossal 26GB/s." They're just describing the PCIe standard! Not even the system.

Did the 2019 Mac Pro have PCIe switching? Yeah. But it was never "only one slot of bandwidth" bad.

Edit: Looked it up, I believe the 2019 Mac Pro had 64 PCIe Gen 3 lanes total. The new Mac Pro has 16 Gen 4. Even accounting for the generation jump, the 2019 Mac Pro still has more available bandwidth and can handle more cards.

Just for fun, our friend the 13900k, typically used for 2-3 slot systems, has 20 lanes of Gen 5.

 

[russell_314]

Youre sure are you? Youre not saying anything different than those that defended the trashcan. So sure...

Youre sure are you?

What are you trying to say? I'm really confused... 🤦‍♂️

 

[impulse462]

What the heck? Seriously? ONLY ENTHUSIASTS want to upgrade a computer. Mhmm. Those enthusiasts, they TOTALLY need their ECC ram upgrades /sarcasm

Lmao I had this same reaction with I read that; that poster is not worth time to respond to

 

[TracerAnalog]

Mac Pro 2023 is a scam:

It is rather something like a poor expansion dock for Mac Studio and not a real workstation machine.

No. It is a very specific bit of kit for people that need it.

 

[nutritious]

It’s a shame that every new Mac update brings the wave of videos from the clown class on YouTube, most of whom would fail at a simple task like holding a sign on the side of a street advertising a restaurant. And yet people take the clowns seriously…

yeah these youtube reviewers are a waste of time. just buy the tool you need to get the job done IMO. At this point you can build way more practical PCs than these mac pros.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Youre sure are you?

What are you trying to say? I'm really confused... 🤦‍♂️

Should have been a comma. "Youre sure, are you?"

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I usually would agree with you. But...

The Mac Pro's whole thing now is "It's a Mac Studio with 7 PCIe slots! You can fill it with PCIe cards!"

Except it only has enough bandwidth to run one 16x card at full bandwidth.

Shipping a machine claiming that you can fill it with a whole bunch of cards but only providing enough bandwidth to actually run one? That's kind of scammy.

Heck, look at the language they use:


Notice how they tiptoe around actually addressing what the total bandwidth of the system is. Even "The latest PCIe gen 4 SSD cards, for example, are capable of a colossal 26GB/s." They're just describing the PCIe standard! Not even the system.

Did the 2019 Mac Pro have PCIe switching? Yeah. But it was never "only one slot of bandwidth" bad.

Edit: Looked it up, I believe the 2019 Mac Pro had 64 PCIe Gen 3 lanes total. The new Mac Pro has 16 Gen 4. Even accounting for the generation jump, the 2019 Mac Pro still has more available bandwidth and can handle more cards.

Just for fun, our friend the 13900k, typically used for 2-3 slot systems, has 20 lanes of Gen 5.

I wish we had "helpful" tapbacks on this site. Because this is very helpful and also super surprising. Selling me 7 slots where I can max out all the bandwidth with one SSD controller card is 'per se' scammy. It's truly dishonest. People can cry 'clickbait' all they like, and perhaps that is his history, but on this, he, sadly, nailed it. The 8,1 Mac is a scam.