MP 14,8 Mac Pro 2023 is a scam

[m1maverick]

Yes, it is. Apparently you didn’t read the list of parts. Those are the components that come in a HP or Dell workstation. The goal is to see how a DIY workstation compares to the Mac Pro.

It came to $6,941.70 with some thermal paste thrown in. The 16 core Xeon CPU has similar benchmark scores as M2 Ultra. The GPU is much faster, especially compared to the 60 core GPU you get for $6,999.

Of course most people will elect to use gaming PC parts which brings the cost down more (non-Xeon CPU, non-workstation GPU, and non-ECC RAM). The goal however is to configure what a Mac Pro would have been if it stayed Intel.

I understand your goal, I just don't feel it's an apples to apples comparison because it's something that you're assembling yourself, it's warranty will be individual parts coverage instead of a whole system, and it's unlikely to be certified to run workstation specific software.

We all know a build it yourself PC can be less expensive than a Mac, sometimes by a considerable margin. But workstations aren't about peak performance but rather capability, reliability, and dependability are larger concerns in the workstation market.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I understand your goal, I just don't feel it's an apples to apples comparison because it's something that you're assembling yourself, it's warranty will be individual parts coverage instead of a whole system, and it's unlikely to be certified to run workstation specific software.

We all know a build it yourself PC can be less expensive than a Mac, sometimes by a considerable margin. But workstations aren't about peak performance but rather capability, reliability, and dependability are larger concerns in the workstation market.

But I think the point is the 8,1 Mac doesnt rise to the level of workstation itself, and is itself excluded from that standard. It's not workstation level machine. So comparing it to more consumer/gamer equipment is frankly, IMO, fair game.

 

[russell_314]

Should have been a comma. "Youre sure, are you?"

That makes sense. Maybe my brain isn't functioning at 100% today...

I don't think it's a matter of defending the product as you said, but I just think it's pointless for a bunch of people including myself to discuss how much they like or hate a product that isn't designed for them or they will never purchase. It's like me discussing about Ferrari engines and how I think the new whatever they put in them now is complete trash. I think what matters is what customers that have the 2019 Intel Mac Pro think. Are they going to buy it?

I think Max tech has become a nothing but a clickbait YouTube channel. I would like to see someone in the either in the industry, or someone credible such as MKBHD give an opinion to the Mac Pro.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

That makes sense. Maybe my brain isn't functioning at 100% today...

I don't think it's a matter of defending the product as you said, but I just think it's pointless for a bunch of people including myself to discuss how much they like or hate a product that isn't designed for them or they will never purchase. It's like me discussing about Ferrari engines and how I think the new whatever they put in them now is complete trash. I think what matters is what customers that have the 2019 Intel Mac Pro think. Are they going to buy it?

I think Max tech has become a nothing but a clickbait YouTube channel. I would like to see someone in the either in the industry, or someone credible such as MKBHD give an opinion to the Mac Pro.

History disagrees with you. It wasn't pointless when there was an outcry on how bad the trashcan was for a large section of pros/enthusiasts. It resulted in an apple apology tour and one of the best/loved Mac pros ever, the 7,1. So it has a purpose. And if enough people call out the 8,1 Mac for what it is, garbage, that may get apple to do the right thing and fix it in the next iteration.

Your argument, is one that was literally made over and over during the trashcan days, and proven wrong by the 7,1. Does that mean apple will change/budge every time. No. But they are far less inclined without people being vocal about their displeasure, and they sure seem to be more motivated when they are publicly humiliated for falling short. Sad to say, that is the squeaky wheel effect many times in life.

And I disagree with you. I have some friends that do have Ferraris and some that dont. You'd be surprised what number of the non Ferrari class have to say about the cars is much more refined (and are better drivers too). And often they are not Ferrari owners not because they cannot, because they do not want what Ferrari is selling (eg and go buy a McLaren instead).

Furthermore, you are literally talking to people in a Mac Pro forum, a very large number of them Mac Pro owners. And prospective owners. All voicing their displeasure. They are buyers. I have a 7,1. I have money burning a hole in my pocket to throw at apple. But I'll be clutching to my 7,1 for dear life praying the 9,1 fixes the disaster that is the 8,1. And if that does not timely come, I will likely go elsewhere, sadly.

I hate to say this, but the 8,1 Mac is DOA.


Also as a BTW, I find MKBHD totally non-credible overblown and no different than iJustine. A veneer youtube'r. And, here, at least, MaxTech delivered actual tech details like the complete joke that the PCI lanes are on this Mac. Not defending MaxTech, but on this one, he's on the money (despite my still disagreeing with his 'theories').

As always, YMMV.

 

[impulse462]

That makes sense. Maybe my brain isn't functioning at 100% today...

I don't think it's a matter of defending the product as you said, but I just think it's pointless for a bunch of people including myself to discuss how much they like or hate a product that isn't designed for them or they will never purchase. It's like me discussing about Ferrari engines and how I think the new whatever they put in them now is complete trash. I think what matters is what customers that have the 2019 Intel Mac Pro think. Are they going to buy it?

I think Max tech has become a nothing but a clickbait YouTube channel. I would like to see someone in the either in the industry, or someone credible such as MKBHD give an opinion to the Mac Pro.

Why are you telling people on a forum dedicated to talking about this particular issue, not to talk about this particular issue? If you think it's pointless no one is forcing you to post here. People on this forum own a 2019 Mac Pro and we are mostly against this change. Do you even own a Mac Pro? why not follow your own advice and not post here lmao?

Your analogy to cars doesn't work in anyway and is irrelevant. The Mac Pro is supposed to be a workstation to complete a variety of tasks. That's the purpose of these types computers dating back to the 50s. The Mac Pro was originally designed to accommodate these people and now has changed to become a glorified video editors box because thats what apple cares about, not about giving their customers of this product the flexibility to use their computer for their specific need.

 

[goMac]

I wish we had "helpful" tapbacks on this site. Because this is very helpful and also super surprising. Selling me 7 slots where I can max out all the bandwidth with one SSD controller card is 'per se' scammy. It's truly dishonest. People can cry 'clickbait' all they like, and perhaps that is his history, but on this, he, sadly, nailed it. The 8,1 Mac is a scam.

This is probably also why M2 Max is not an option on the Mac Pro.

Those 16 lanes come entirely from the second chip in the M2 Ultra fusion. Without that second M2 Max in the package... the Mac Pro would have no lanes to drive PCIe cards with.

(The lane breakdown has been coming from the Ashai Linux folks. They've determined the lane sourcing on M2 Ultra.)

 

[m1maverick]

I find threads like this to be silly. The people that are buying the Mac Pro are buying it because it runs macOS. There is no Intel chip for macOS so that’s not even part of the discussion. If you want macOS and you want expandability then this is the only computer available.

You might say well, there’s Hackintosh. Yeah I’m sure some large corporation is going to use a pirated copy of macOS to save a few thousand dollars 🤦‍♂️

The only people that debate the PC vs Mac Pro are people who are never going to buy one. I mean sure I love debate and discussion but when it comes down to it, it’s completely irrelevant to the sale of this product.

I'm not comparing this new Mac Pro to a PC, I am comparing it to the 2019 Mac Pro and the M2 Mac Studio Ultra. It comes up short in the expandability area when compared to the 2019 Mac Pro and comes up short to the M2 Mac Studio Ultra when it comes to price / performance.

The only reason I can see to buy the 2023 Mac Pro is because you need expandability. IMO the expandability it offers falls short because the single most popular thing people like to expand / upgrade / replace is the GPU. This is essentially the same situation the 2013 Mac Pro faced.

 

[MisterAndrew]

The Mac Pro was originally designed to accommodate these people and now has changed to become a glorified video editors box because thats what apple cares about, not about giving their customers of this product the flexibility to use their computer for their specific need.

I agree. The Mac Pro as a workstation that can be used for a wide variety of uses has been discontinued. The 2019 Mac Pro can run Windows and any professional applications. If an application, such as for CAD, needs a certain GPU then you can install it. The new ‘Studio with slots’ doesn’t have that versatility.

 

[russell_314]

History disagrees with you. It wasn't pointless when there was an outcry on how bad the trashcan was for a large section of pros/enthusiasts. It resulted in an apology tour and one of the best Mac pros ever. So it has a purpose. And if enough people call out the 8,1 Mac for what it is, garbage, that may get apple to do the right thing and fix it in the next iteration.

I think you're patting yourself on the back a bit too much. Just because people on these farms complained about the trashcan back then Apple did something doesn't mean those two are related.

I’ve seen hundreds of posts on the Internet talking about how the iPhone trash. It's complete garbage, so why doesn't Apple discontinue it? I mean a lot of people on Internet say that then Apple should've discontinued the iPhone right?
No, because the iPhone sells because all those people Internet saying it’s garbage aren’t customers anyway. Their opinion is meaningless to Apple selling a product.

If public outcry on these forums meant anything, then Apple would've not sold the 2019 Mac Pro. I've seen so many posts here complaining about that thing. Now that it's been replaced with a newer model all the sudden it's the greatest computer in the world. It seems like people just want something to criticize.


Apparently the trashcan Mac didn't sell, so Apple thought oh no, this is not good and fixed it. They didn't dawn MacRumors and say oh no the people in the farms don't like it we need to change it.

This new Mac Pro might be completely useless for some applications and yes that will limit sales. The question is, will the people who run applications that work well on it, buy it?

The people that are buying this machine aren't emotionally attached to it. They're either going to buy it because it's going to do a task they do for work or not. $6k or even $50k is nothing to them because it's being paid by the company. I think many people here are taking this as a personal purchase. Naturally if you spend even $6k to buy something you're going to be a little attached to it. To businesses it's just a tool, nothing more nothing less

Furthermore, you are literally talking to people in a Mac Pro forum, a very large number of them Mac Pro owners. And prospective owners.

Unfortunately, this is also the Internet where there are no restrictions to who can post here. I'm sure there are some Mac Pro owners here but there's probably also people that don't own a single Apple product. If there was a locked part of a form where you had to show proof of purchase for a 2019 Mac pro to be able to post then this thread would be beneficial and then Apple might look at it then because those are customers. I bet a months salary that most people here don't own a Mac Pro and if they do, it's an older one and not a 2019 Mac Pro.

 

[russell_314]

I agree. The Mac Pro as a workstation that can be used for a wide variety of uses has been discontinued. The 2019 Mac Pro can run Windows and any professional applications. If an application, such as for CAD, needs a certain GPU then you can install it. The new ‘Studio with slots’ doesn’t have that versatility.

I agree with your statement. The thing is, I bet Apple is looking at who is purchasing it and what are they using it for. If they see 90% of the people buying a Mac Pro or using it for video editing. Guess what that's what they're going to focus on. If they are wrong, and Mac Pro, customers needed more versatility, then Apple will feel it when it comes to sales

 

[russell_314]

Why are you telling people on a forum dedicated to talking about this particular issue, not to talk about this particular issue?

Please quote the post where I said this? Maybe you confused my post with someone else's?

 

[m1maverick]

People that are not going to buy a product debating about the product are not relevant to the product sales. Me complaining about the choice Ferrari uses for the engine isn’t relevant to Ferrari sales.

What you appear to be overlooking is that they would have bought the product but won't now because of the choices Apple has made. This is the 2013 Mac Pro all over again. You're making the same arguments about the 2023 Mac Pro as those that were made back about the 2013 Mac Pro.

 

[russell_314]

What you appear to be overlooking is that they would have bought the product but won't now because of the choices Apple has made. This is the 2013 Mac Pro all over again. You're making the same arguments about the 2023 Mac Pro as those that were made back about the 2013 Mac Pro.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I am sure some people that need specific features that aren't in this Mac Pro won't buy it. What I think you're overlooking is how big is that customer base that wants those specific features and how big is the customer base of the ones that want the specific features that Apple did put in the device. Do you really think Apple would mess up twice with a Mac pro and not put in the features that will sell? I would be surprised if they did

 

[Boil]

Oxygen is a scam, unless you're a human who needs to live...

...bought $AAPL...

Triggered... I should have bought AAPL instead of a Power Computing Power Tower Pro 225 & a seat of EIAS in the mid-1990s...

I do too. Threads are using the words 'scam', 'crisis' and 'failure' and I can't for the life of me understand why these posts are expressing themselves so childishly. The rhetoric is completely over the top in my view. It's hard to believe that scientists and engineers are choosing these words.

"Bailiff, whack his pee pee...!"

Except it only has enough bandwidth to run one 16x card at full bandwidth.

What is the source for this...?

 

[goMac]

What is the source for this...?

The video in the first post in this thread (which itself is sourced from the Asahi Linux folks.)

I feel like a lot of people have glossed over that video (which might be understandable given... Max Tech.)

 

[Longplays]

Triggered... I should have bought AAPL instead of a Power Computing Power Tower Pro 225 & a seat of EIAS in the mid-1990s...

Having a div of more than $100k annually is nice.

 

[Boil]

The video in the first post in this thread (which itself is sourced from the Asahi Linux folks.)

I feel like a lot of people have glossed over that video (which might be understandable given... Max Tech.)

Is it still not a bunch of guesstimates until folks actually get hands-on with the first-gen ASi Mac Pro (Mac14,14)...?

Having a div of more than $100k annually is nice.

Sure, rub it in...

 

[russell_314]

The video in the first post in this thread (which itself is sourced from the Asahi Linux folks.)

I feel like a lot of people have glossed over that video (which might be understandable given... Max Tech.)

Of course. I'm not going to even bother watching one of his videos because he's probably saying something out of context. I'll wait for a reputable YouTube channel like MKBHD to give their assessment

 

[Longplays]

Sure, rub it in...

Quietly enjoy your life via travel. Just make sure you dont share photos/videos/locations to avoid people asking you to pay their debts from conspicuous consumption.

 

[m1maverick]

I agree with your statement. The thing is, I bet Apple is looking at who is purchasing it and what are they using it for. If they see 90% of the people buying a Mac Pro or using it for video editing. Guess what that's what they're going to focus on. If they are wrong, and Mac Pro, customers needed more versatility, then Apple will feel it when it comes to sales

Then why release this Mac Pro at all? The Studio Ultra would perform this task exactly the same as the Mac Pro for less money.

But you see you're making the argument that Apple is creating a self fulfilling prophecy whereas they release a gimped system, less people buy it as a result, and then Apple points to low sales to justify not releasing something more capable.

 

[goMac]

Is it still not a bunch of guesstimates until folks actually get hands-on with the first-gen ASi Mac Pro (Mac14,14)...?

The Asahi Linux people have done a pretty through look through and they have PCIe attributed down to the individual component.

Hector Martin (@marcan@treehouse.systems)

Yeah okay so they are totally cheating. They have two big PCIe switches and are hanging everything off of them. From the device tree: # 8x Gen4 lanes on die 0, switched: - x1 to USB internal - x2 to SATA internal - x4 to I/O card (USB, probably single lane connected) - x8 to slot6 - x1 to...

social.treehouse.systems

Sure, maybe something at the last minute changes, but it seems like pretty solid work to me.

Edit: Looking at it, there is one clarification: another 8x is routed directly to slot 6. What's in slot 6? Is that another IO card?

 

[m1maverick]

But I think the point is the 8,1 Mac doesnt rise to the level of workstation itself, and is itself excluded from that standard. It's not workstation level machine. So comparing it to more consumer/gamer equipment is frankly, IMO, fair game.

Fair enough, this makes sense. Though I think there's still some imbalance due to Apple assembling the entire system compared to a DIY setup.

 

[m1maverick]

I'm not saying you're wrong. I am sure some people that need specific features that aren't in this Mac Pro won't buy it. What I think you're overlooking is how big is that customer base that wants those specific features and how big is the customer base of the ones that want the specific features that Apple did put in the device. Do you really think Apple would mess up twice with a Mac pro and not put in the features that will sell? I would be surprised if they did

Then I think you're in the wrong forum. The Mac Studio forum can be found here.

 

[russell_314]

Then why release this Mac Pro at all? The Studio Ultra would perform this task exactly the same as the Mac Pro for less money.

For the customers that need that specific item. Also I believe it's going to have better cooling than the studio but that's just speculation.

But you see you're making the argument that Apple is creating a self fulfilling prophecy whereas they release a gimped system, less people buy it as a result, and then Apple points to low sales to justify not releasing something more capable.

I feel like some people here is looking at this from an emotional standpoint. Businesses are the main target for this device. They're not emotionally attached to their computers. If they need a computer that does exactly X and they're not going to spend more money or look for something that does more.


Will they release a higher end model for customers that need something more? Probably, that's how you sell things. You make products specifically to meet the customers needs. I didn't need a MacBook Pro but Apple made this MacBook Air that perfectly suits my needs. One could say it’s gimped because it doesn’t have the features or power of the MacBook Pro but it’s exactly what I need.

The real question is what is the customer base for the product Apple just announced? Is there a significant customer base for that? Is the base the customer base for having a dedicated GPU for example, larger than the customer base for this product? That's Apple's perspective. They're not looking at this from some sort of emotional or feel good perspective. They're looking at this is from the perspective of this is a product and what percentage of our customers will buy this. I don't have none of those answers, but I really hope Apple is smart enough to figure it out before they released the product

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I think you're patting yourself on the back a bit too much. Just because people on these farms complained about the trashcan back then Apple did something doesn't mean those two are related.

I’ve seen hundreds of posts on the Internet talking about how the iPhone trash. It's complete garbage, so why doesn't Apple discontinue it? I mean a lot of people on Internet say that then Apple should've discontinued the iPhone right?
No, because the iPhone sells because all those people Internet saying it’s garbage aren’t customers anyway. Their opinion is meaningless to Apple selling a product.

If public outcry on these forums meant anything, then Apple would've not sold the 2019 Mac Pro. I've seen so many posts here complaining about that thing. Now that it's been replaced with a newer model all the sudden it's the greatest computer in the world. It seems like people just want something to criticize.


Apparently the trashcan Mac didn't sell, so Apple thought oh no, this is not good and fixed it. They didn't dawn MacRumors and say oh no the people in the farms don't like it we need to change it.

This new Mac Pro might be completely useless for some applications and yes that will limit sales. The question is, will the people who run applications that work well on it, buy it?

The people that are buying this machine aren't emotionally attached to it. They're either going to buy it because it's going to do a task they do for work or not. $6k or even $50k is nothing to them because it's being paid by the company. I think many people here are taking this as a personal purchase. Naturally if you spend even $6k to buy something you're going to be a little attached to it. To businesses it's just a tool, nothing more nothing less




Unfortunately, this is also the Internet where there are no restrictions to who can post here. I'm sure there are some Mac Pro owners here but there's probably also people that don't own a single Apple product. If there was a locked part of a form where you had to show proof of purchase for a 2019 Mac pro to be able to post then this thread would be beneficial and then Apple might look at it then because those are customers. I bet a months salary that most people here don't own a Mac Pro and if they do, it's an older one and not a 2019 Mac Pro.

Well it wouldnt be the first time you were wrong.