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Jimmdean

macrumors 6502a
Mar 21, 2007
648
647
It does kind of seem like this was not Apple's original intention. I mean with what they ended up doing they could have released it when the M1 Ultra came out. It's more like this was a back-up plan.

As for the rest of it I haven't seen a new Apple computer yet that makes me want to abandon my 27" iMac. So I'm sticking it out...
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
People feel it's a scam because core memory is not upgradeable and it's $3000 more than a Studio for PCI slots

Repeating my original post for those who did not actually watch the video:
According to technical sources - it only has enough PCIe bandwidth for one 16x card.

That's the scam. They didn't ship it with enough PCIe lanes to drive the slots. The entire purpose of the machine is to be filled with slots - but it doesn't have the bandwidth to drive the cards.

The video linked to in the first post makes a very specific, very concrete point. This is not a "oh it's a scam because it didn't ship with what I want" thread. It's a "it's a Mac Studio with slots for $3000 more, except the slots don't really work, that seems like a scam" thread.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
I'm not a MaxTech fanboy. I enjoy their videos. But I won't deny that, like a lot of for-profit YouTube channels, there's some click-bait here and there.

But the "MaxTech is nothing but click-bait" response to anything critical of Apple is kind of ridiculous. Especially since MaxTech WILL rave IN Apple's favor when they deem an Apple product worthy of it. They did about the early M1 Macs, they did about the Intel 16-inch MacBook Pro and they did about the 2021 14-inch and 16-inch M1 Pro and M1 Max based MacBook Pros. They similarly praised the sixth generation iPad mini on multiple occasions and have advocated it as the go-to choice of iPad for the average user. This does not sound like a channel overly critical of Apple.

If the product is good and compares favorably, they'll speak highly of it, and if it doesn't, they speak ill of it. What more do you want from a YouTube channel that reviews Apple products? Luke Miani, MKBHD, Linus, all of them do this.

Does that mean that MaxTech will release the periodic "Apple has deceived us all!" click-bait video during a slow news day? Yes. Totally. But that doesn't invalidate the videos wherein they literally show the actual products compared to either their predecessor or a similar products and are running side-by-side comparisons. Nor does it make them anti-Apple shills (especially since, when Apple releases a good product, they will usually rave about it).

As for the 2023 Mac Pro not being a valid replacement to the 2019 Mac Pro: 192GB of RAM is one fourth the maximum amount of RAM for an 8, 12, or 16 core 2019 Mac Pro and one eighth the maximum amount of RAM for a 24 or 28 core 2019 Mac Pro. No way around that. Yes, unified memory makes RAM usage more efficient, but it doesn't make up for not having it at all. Past that, not having aftermarket upgradeability is rough. A socketed SoC would've helped a ton. Otherwise, the writing on the wall that discrete GPUs and traditional graphics cards were going away for the Mac on the Apple Silicon end of the Intel-to-Apple-Silicon transition was spelled out clear as day as far back as WWDC 2020. Furthermore, I'm not sure that anyone has really had a chance to put that 60 or 76 core GPU to task to see how it stacks to all of the possible MPX options that were available for the 2019 Mac Pro. The RAM ceiling and lack of SoC modularity is a legitimate bummer. $3000 also seems like a steep cost to pay for PCIe 4.0 slots, two internal SATA ports, one internal USB-A port, two extra Thunderbolt 4 ports, one extra HDMI 2.1 port, a third impeller fan, and one extra 10Gb Ethernet port. Other than those things, I fail to see where this machine is a surprise, let alone a scam.
 

Xenobius

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 10, 2019
191
474
Repeating my original post for those who did not actually watch the video:
According to technical sources - it only has enough PCIe bandwidth for one 16x card.

That's the scam. They didn't ship it with enough PCIe lanes to drive the slots. The entire purpose of the machine is to be filled with slots - but it doesn't have the bandwidth to drive the cards.

The video linked to in the first post makes a very specific, very concrete point. This is not a "oh it's a scam because it didn't ship with what I want" thread. It's a "it's a Mac Studio with slots for $3000 more, except the slots don't really work, that seems like a scam" thread.
Clearly written. I think this should be understood by even the dumbest uncritical Apple fanboy.
Nevertheless, the lack of GPU support and lack of memory slots is also a failure. I realise that adding these options is problematic, but damn it - engineers are there to solve problems. All they did was add switches for faked PCIe slots.
 
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MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Sep 15, 2015
2,895
2,390
Portland, Ore.
How long will it be before Apple admits this product was a failure and what will be their next move?

In Apple speak, "We out-did ourselves when we brought M2 Ultra to the Mac Pro. Never before have we released a Mac with such amazing performance and capability, but we realize some of you want even more performance and capability so we're..."
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
How long will it be before Apple admits this product was a failure and what will be their next move?

In Apple speak, "We out-did ourselves when we brought M2 Ultra to the Mac Pro. Never before have we released a Mac with such amazing performance and capability, but we realize some of you want even more performance and capability so we're..."

Who will bother to buy it? I’m sure someone will come along attracted to the beautiful light (zap) but previous folk are moving to PC workstations that can be upgraded and use off the shelf components that can be easily replaced or used elsewhere and operating systems that don’t offer driver support road blocks.
 
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richmlow

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2002
390
285
How long will it be before Apple admits this product was a failure and what will be their next move?

In Apple speak, "We out-did ourselves when we brought M2 Ultra to the Mac Pro. Never before have we released a Mac with such amazing performance and capability, but we realize some of you want even more performance and capability so we're..."

It appears that SoC (Apple Silicon) does not scale very well at this point in time.

Just as Apple had to finally admit that they "painted themselves into a thermal corner" with the 2013 Mac Pro, they may eventually have to admit the real limitations of their Apple Silicon SoC. While the Apple Silicon SoC are excellent CPUs for mobile and laptop devices, they are not very good for workstation/desktop platforms overall.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,142
7,120
MaxTech doesn't know what the hell he's talking about usually. His channel used to be decent but is now just clickbait garbage with incorrect testing methods. I remember him dogging the M2 Air yet my real world experience had me running stuff on it (just fine) that most people would buy a workstation for. Applications like Houdini, Final Cut, Logic, ZBrush, Blender, Xcode, etc all ran just fine without overheating, yet if you watched his original videos you'd think the M2 Air was the worst machine out there.
It's not just them. Other channels act the same way. If someone is buying base spec, they should not expect high SSD speeds. I mean really, I have a 4TB M1 Mac Studio and it doesn't get what they advertised either. That is only available in the 8TB model.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,142
7,120
The 13900k is faster than M2 Ultra. And it's much cheaper.

Is the 13900k a workstation chip? No. But neither is the M2 Ultra. The M2 Ultra doesn't have the PCIe lanes a workstation chip would have. It doesn't have the RAM capacity a workstation chip would have. It doesn't have the ECC a workstation chip would have.

There is no reason to price the Ultra against a workstation chip because M2 Ultra isn't in the workstation class.
A 13900k doesn't have the memory bandwidth of the M2 Ultra does. That would require 32 channel memory. In some workflows, that is more important than CPU benchmark numbers.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
A 13900k doesn't have the memory bandwidth of the M2 Ultra does. That would require 32 channel memory. In some workflows, that is more important than CPU benchmark numbers.
That cuts both ways. It has faster bandwidth than a 13900k - but slower bandwidth than a higher end GPU.
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,060
The Mac Pro's whole thing now is "It's a Mac Studio with 7 PCIe slots! You can fill it with PCIe cards!"

Except it only has enough bandwidth to run one 16x card at full bandwidth.
I think the video was a bit OTT in its shock and horror - its totally standard operating practice for PCIe PCs to have more PCIe slots than they could possibly supply independent PCIe lanes from the CPU to every pin. PCIe Mac Pros - even the 2019 - have always used a PCIe switch, and supplied the "Expansion slot utility" (https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210104) prioritise which slots get dedicated lanes vs. sharing bandwidth.

The Xeon-W in the 2019 MP had 64 lanes of PCIe from the processor - some of that had to go to storage, networking etc. and 16 lanes were always needed for a GPU in slot 1. That left 32 lanes shared betwee

You can work out from the picture of the utility in the link above that 16 lanes went to the first slot (which would always be a GPU and typically get 16 direct lines from the processor) leaving two "banks" of 16 lanes each to be shared between the remaining slots - well short of the 76 lanes needed to give full, unshared bandwidth to each slot.

So, looks like the 2023 has 16 lanes of PCIe 4 shared between two x16 and four x8 slots - may be a disappointment if you were dreaming of full bandwidth to all those slots, but a lot better than the 4 lanes worth of PCIe 3 (plus lag) shared between one x16 and two x8 that you'd get with, say, an Echo III external PCIe box.

However... yeah, that's really not a good return on your $3000 premium and really only equivalent to what you'd get on a bog standard tower PC, let alone a threadripper box.


The alternative being that the magic fairies have visited and created 32+ lanes of PCIe4 out of nowhere. The video (or rather the brief glimpse of the PCIe lane allocation) provides the most plausible explanation so far - its the unused storage interface from the second M2 Max die.
I wish we had "helpful" tapbacks on this site. Because this is very helpful and also super surprising. Selling me 7 slots where I can max out all the bandwidth with one SSD controller card is 'per se' scammy. It's truly dishonest. People can cry 'clickbait' all they like, and perhaps that is his history, but on this, he, sadly, nailed it. The 8,1 Mac is a scam.

To summarize—correct me if I'm wrong—it seems the chip has a total I/O of 32 Gen 4 lanes, subdivided as follows (based on the post from Hector Martin shown in the video):

16 (PCIe cards only) + 8 (PCIe cards + built-in ports + SATA & USB-A internals) + 8 (internal SSD) = 32.

For comparison, the current AMD Threadripper CPU's have 128 Gen 4 lanes, and the new Stormripper CPU's, slated for release this year, have 128 Gen 5 lanes.

1686796802067.png
 
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goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
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To clarify, just how much I/O bandwidth does it have?

Based on the post from Hector Martin shown in the video, it looks like it's 16 + 8 = 24 Gen 4 lanes for the PCIe slots.

Then there's the 8 x TB + 2 x 10 Gb Ethernet + 2 x HDMI 2.1 + 2 x 5 Gb/s USB-A ports; plus they mention 2 x SATA (6 Gb/s) + 1 x 5 Gb/s USB-A internally. Are the latter sharing bandwidth with the PCIe slots, or are there separate lanes dedicated for them and, if so, how many?

I.e., what's the total?

Hector Martin is saying 16x split between all slots, with slot 6 getting its own 8 lane link. So slot 6 runs separate from the others. All the other things have dedicated bandwidth - they don't share.

I'm not sure why slot 6 is special - I thought maybe it was filled with an I/O card but it's not.

The real problematic thing is both 16x slots would be fighting over that single chunk of 16 lanes of bandwidth. It's a real odd split.

It's also half the PCIe bandwidth of the 2019 - even taking into account the Gen 4 jump.

As I mentioned - Apple has not released any details on this. Which is real odd. The 2019 had these details released in tech docs that details how PCIe lanes could be allocated.
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
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Hector Martin is saying 16x split between all slots, with slot 6 getting its own 8 lane link. So slot 6 runs separate from the others. All the other things have dedicated bandwidth - they don't share.

I'm not sure why slot 6 is special - I thought maybe it was filled with an I/O card but it's not.

The real problematic thing is both 16x slots would be fighting over that single chunk of 16 lanes of bandwidth. It's a real odd split.

It's also half the PCIe bandwidth of the 2019 - even taking into account the Gen 4 jump.

As I mentioned - Apple has not released any details on this. Which is real odd. The 2019 had these details released in tech docs that details how PCIe lanes could be allocated.
The I/O card in slot 7, which is part of the 8x Gen 4 group, has the 2 x HDMI 2.1 + 2 x USB-A + headphone jack. And the 2 x 10 Gb Ethernet + SATA&USB internals are also explicitly covered by the 8x Gen 4. That takes care of all the I/O ports except the 8 x TB4. What would cover those?

It don't see how it could be the case that everything in the 8x Gen 4 group (other than slot 6) don't share, since they sum to 10. Plus that would leave no bandwidth for slot 6.
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
I know it’s all been said before by now, but I gotta say it one more time…

I can’t believe that Apple released a Mac Pro with:

Non upgradable CPU
Non upgradable GPU
Non upgradable RAM

Epic fail.
It's June 2023. Apple stated three WWDCs ago that this would be how Apple Silicon Macs would work. They basically spelled it out for you and for all of us three years ago. And you're shocked that they did what they said they would?

I'm not saying that I wasn't also shocked to see the SoC not be socketed. But I'm not shocked that they otherwise stuck to the SoC design model when it came to RAM, CPU, and GPU. Again, they said they would do this three years ago.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,478
3,173
Stargate Command
Would be nice to see Apple reduce the Apple Tax by a bit though, especially if one wants to max out a configuration...!

"We the Sheeple will buy into your forced obsolescence if you drop the upgrade pricing a bit, thanks...!"

;^p
 
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Grilled Cheese

macrumors member
Aug 5, 2021
64
63
It's June 2023. Apple stated three WWDCs ago that this would be how Apple Silicon Macs would work. They basically spelled it out for you and for all of us three years ago. And you're shocked that they did what they said they would?

I'm not saying that I wasn't also shocked to see the SoC not be socketed. But I'm not shocked that they otherwise stuck to the SoC design model when it came to RAM, CPU, and GPU. Again, they said they would do this three years ago.
I don’t watch WWDCs and I don’t follow Apple News much, but I have bought many Mac Pros over the years. They’ve all been good in their own way. This is the first time Apple has released one that I have no interest in whatsoever.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
To summarize—correct me if I'm wrong—it seems the chip has a total I/O of 32 Gen 4 lanes, subdivided as follows (based on the post from Hector Martin shown in the video):

16 (PCIe cards only) + 8 (PCIe cards + built-in ports + SATA & USB-A internals) + 8 (internal SSD) = 32.

For comparison, the current AMD Threadripper CPU's have 128 Gen 4 lanes, and the new Stormripper CPU's, slated for release this year, have 128 Gen 5 lanes.

View attachment 2218281


For the image being weaved in here ... Not ... and a bit too overblown.

There are two feeds , like the MP 2019.

2019 --- two x16 v3 feeds 'x32 worth' ( equivalent aggregate backhaul of one x16 v4 feed).
2023 --- according to the above one x8v4 and one x16v4 ( which equivalent to 'x48 worth' in v3 terms)

x48 > x32. There is net uplift. Not sure how that deserves a 'Boo'.

The other problem is probably not looking at from the PCIe configure utility viewpoint. (2019 had one ... so does 2023)

macos-ventura-mac-pro-system-settings-general-about-pcie-cards-info-pcie-slot-configuration.png


https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213663


Apple appears to be using a higher end , two-input server class PCI-e switch. (not going cheap. ) So there are two pools and the two x16 slots don't both have to be in Pool A or both in Pool B. You can split them if you wish.

So could have one x16 v3 card in pool B and one x16 v4 card in pool A and nobody is being blocked. A fair number of folk have older (v2 , v3 ) , wider ( x8 , x16) card that have sunk costs on and the v4 backhaul's larger aggregate backhaul bandwidth can handle them.

I imagine that doesn't work at all from rogue , non macOS operating systems. [ just frozen at the default configuration. ]

Basically 'old' slot 1 and 3 disappeared along with their MPX connectors and three 8-pin AUX power ports.

Aggregate overall bandwidth isn't down if compare 'apples to apples' of old 2-4-5-6-7-8 to new 1-2-3-4-5-6 ( 6 to 6 )

The x16 v3 bandwidth of slot 3 has pragmatically been folded into the distribution through the switch so there is more to go around. Pragmatically the default 'slot 1' GPU is placed on the internal mesh backhaul inside the chip which is 'crazy' higher than x16 v3, v4, or v5 . So again a net increase in aggregate backhaul bandwidth.

From the backhaul bandwidth perspective there is not much to 'Boo' at here at all.

If talking 'form over function'. Then can 'boo' didn't blow up the default GPU bandwidth increase to go modular form factor. But would be giving up gobs of bandwidth to get that.


P.S. as for the Threadripper. The Threadripper GPU output versus the Utlra's is what???
 
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Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,478
3,173
Stargate Command
LOL, just realized...

For those complaining about US$3K for some PCIe slots...

Obvious answers of chassis, PSU, logic board, cooling, SATA, etc. ...

But ten percent of that three grand is the keyboard & mouse...! ;^p
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,142
7,120
That cuts both ways. It has faster bandwidth than a 13900k - but slower bandwidth than a higher end GPU.
Yes there are advantages and disadvantages of both ways. Maxed out the GPU can access 192 GB of memory. Something my Windows system can’t do and I can tell a difference in some of my 3D projects.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Solved it all with the Mac Pro M3 Ultra Duo 🤓

Maybe thats why they kept the form factor... Apple can scale the software and OS accordingly

View attachment 2218439

The Mac Pro unit sales are extremely likely lower than 250K/year. Likely lower than 100K/year. Apple sells around 25-30M Macs/year. Adapting the OS to what is at best , and likely lower, 1% of the user base probably isn't going to happen.

If Apple does anything those two large packages will be far closer together. Or basically just under just one cover.

Also decent chance that the SATA connectors get squeezed out rather than make slots 5-8 going to half length cards. Horizontally across the 'CPU' cooling zone rather than soaking up most of the 'mid' cooling zone.
( 300W AUX plus 7*75W == 825W ... the bottom two fans have lots to cover without the SoC cutting into the mix. )
To the right of the current package is almost completely 'clean' logic board with nothing on it but physical stand-offs to keep the J2i-like drive brackets from touching. That's pretty much an "open greenfield" to 'plant' into if want to make a trade-off.

Apple could flip the USB socket to the other side. ( which makes more thermal sense anyway for an internal 'Thumb' drive. ). Maybe squeeze in a smaller, one drive bracket for a 3.5" HDD. on the front if there is enough clearance left over. Apple isn't a huge SATA fan anyway. So two connectors always seemed that they were just soaking up space that couldn't use at the moment anyway.
 
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