MP 14,8 Mac Pro 2023 is a scam

[deconstruct60]

For the image being weaved in here ... Not ... and a bit too overblown.

There are two feeds , like the MP 2019.

2019 --- two x16 v3 feeds 'x32 worth' ( equivalent aggregate backhaul of one x16 v4 feed).
2023 --- according to the above one x8v4 and one x16v4 ( which equivalent to 'x48 worth' in v3 terms)

P.S. Presuming the Ultra is two exact copy Max dies, that asymmetric split on backhaul probably isn't the physical capability. Both are likely x16 feeds. (that presented layout is a virtual/logic one , not the physical one). One feed is being throttled back. Probably for some sort of QoS (quality of service) management. Unclear whether the QoS is being thrown at the backhaul ( fat-tree arrangement were limiting how much hand out ( e.g., slot 7 being only PCI-e v3 ) ) or there is some internal die mesh backhaul bandwidth is being reserved ( like die 0 also has to handle SSD controller's traffic on/off the die. So 'closing lanes' on the external PCI-e controller to control traffic. )

It does point toward if there is internal die mesh uplift with M3 or M4 that they could probably pretty easily make that symmetric on the next iteration. Or longer term go to PCI-e v5 and keep one of those asymmetric again to not overload the die backhaul when stepped up.

Also with a > 2 compute die package.... could basically uncork the set up were two dies play the "full x16" provisioning role and another die drops out of the provisioning task altogether. More chiplets , better opportunity to spread the load.

Keeping that two input PCI-e switch probably stays around in future iterations also. But later on, a 'bigger' SoC option could mean more aggregate backhaul bandwidth difference between the two (or more) SoC models.

 

[goMac]

2019 --- two x16 v3 feeds 'x32 worth' ( equivalent aggregate backhaul of one x16 v4 feed).

I'm pretty sure your number is wrong here. 2019 has 64 lanes of PCIe v3. Not 32.

Here's an article talking about it:

HOW TO: Install PCIe cards in your 2019 Mac Pro

The 2019 Mac Pro allows to connect PCIe cards. Apple gives some recommendations on how to install and configure them. But below are some more recommendations. How to open the "Expansion Slot...

softron.zendesk.com

That would mean, again, M2 Ultra Mac Pro is a downgrade.

 

[Boil]

I'm pretty sure your number is wrong here. 2019 has 64 lanes of PCIe v3. Not 32.

Two of the PCIe 3.0 x16 slots connect directly to the Xeon CPU, and are intended for GPU usage; no add-in GPUs with Apple silicon, so those two slots are out of the conversation...

That would mean, again, M2 Ultra Mac Pro is a downgrade.

Again, taking away slots intended for add-in GPUs because ASi does not support add-in GPUs means not really a downgrade...

 

[theluggage]

I'm pretty sure your number is wrong here. 2019 has 64 lanes of PCIe v3. Not 32.

I think that's right (that was a useful link - not dumbed down as much as the Apple one). However, its not quite apples & apples to compare it with the 2023: In the 2019, 16 of those lanes will always go to a PCIe GPU. Also, based on the article you linked, the 4 standard TB connectors and the extra ones available via MPX GPUs come out of the two pools.

The 2023 has the "advantage" of not needing 16-32 dedicated lanes for PCIe GPUs (yes, I know - but that ship has sailed), and also it looks like the 8 TB4 ports are all driven directly from the M2 Ultra and don't impinge on the slots (which was an earlier concern about the "M2U with slots" idea) - so you really do have 24 lanes for your storage, AV and networking cards, equivalent to 48 if (big if) your critical cards are PCIe v4-capable capable. Plus, you won't need those pesky Afterburner cards (yeah... not gonna push that one too far).

So it kinda depends on your expectations - as a "Studio Ultra with Slots" it should far surpass what you can get with an external TB-to-PCIe enclosure, and if you need internal non-GPU cards that use PCIe 4 and also want external TB4/USB3.1G2 devices then it might actually beat our the 2019 on I/O.

Still not impressed by the $3000 price-hike over the base Studio Ultra for a base Studio Ultra with half-a-dozen PCIe slots with good but not workstation-grade (c.f. AMD, at least) bandwidth.

 

[goMac]

Two of the PCIe 3.0 x16 slots connect directly to the Xeon CPU, and are intended for GPU usage; no add-in GPUs with Apple silicon, so those two slots are out of the conversation...

Yeah, no.

At least one of those slots is typically free. So that should at least be another 16x lanes. Just because it can be use with a GPU - does not mean it could not be used for other things. Most Mac Pro users are running single GPU configs.

The other x16 slot? I can kind of get the argument but am not sure I completely buy it. Sure, it's not filled with a GPU anymore - but that means it should be _open._

Regardless, it still also means that the 2019 Mac Pro had a lot more bandwidth for its PCIe slots, filled or not. Apple made sure, on the 2019, the 16x slots had enough bandwidth.

Basically - the 2023 is "Ok, you don't have a GPU in the last slot, which feels like it gives you a dedicated 16x slot, but actually doesn't because there isn't enough bandwidth for the slot." If we don't get enough bandwidth for the slot back - then the point is kind of iffy.

Again, taking away slots intended for add-in GPUs because ASi does not support add-in GPUs means not really a downgrade...

I think you maybe mistyped - but actually also kind of made my point.

Even though the slot is on the board - they actually kind of took it away. They don't get credit for slot 7 when they don't have the bandwidth for slot 7.

It's like if I took an i3 and put it on a 7 slot board. Sure, I might have 7 physical slots, but you don't really get credit for them when bandwidth is so constricted. Heck, given that an i3 has 20 PCIe 4.0 lanes that's kind of what Apple actually did.

 

[mcnallym]

What the heck? Seriously? ONLY ENTHUSIASTS want to upgrade a computer. Mhmm. Those enthusiasts, they TOTALLY need their ECC ram upgrades /sarcasm

There are 3 basic roles involved with computers

USER
IT DEPT
PURCHASER

each of whom have different views.

USER - I need to be able switch on my computer and perform task A, B, C etc Users want to be able to peform the tasks on the computer that they need to do.
Do I care if I have an ASi Soc, Xeon or a Threadripper - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why would I care if it has a ASi SOC, Xeon or a Threadripper in it. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if it has an Nvidia GPU or an AMD GPU or ASi SoC - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why would I care what brand of GPU my computer has. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fixed storage - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why do I care if the storage is fixed or replaceable NVME Sticks. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fastest storage - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then do I care if it is 1500Mbps, 3000Mbps, 5000-6000Mbps transfer rate. I can do what I need too. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fixed RAM - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why do I care what RAM capacity or how fast it is. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if RAM is ECC or not - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, If Yes then why do I care if it has ECC or Not. That is what an Enthusiast cares about. The IT DEPT will sort out if my task A, B, C requires ECC RAM and get a machine with ECC RAM if it does.
Will be more but paints the picture

IT DEPT - if it breaks how easy is it to fix
GPU - Can I swap out the GPU card or do I need to replace whole machine, If the task requires Software requiring CUDA then will need to be an Nvidia GPU. If using Ray Tracing then Nvidia GPU
CPU - Can I swap out or do I need to replace whole machine
RAM - Can I swap out RAM or do I need to replace whole machine, Does the tasks for the machine require ECC RAM
Storage - Can I swap out Storage or do I need to replace whole machine
Will be more but paints the picture

PURCHASER
How Long will this machine last
Can it be upgraded mid life cycle or do I need to buy a whole new machine which will cost me more.
Will be more but paints the picture

As a User I needed a new machine to do Video Editing in 2013.

I would have liked to buy a Mac Pro 2013, however the PURCHASER in me said that is too expensive and cannot justify it.
The IT DEPT person in me said that a Mac Pro 5,1 would be easier to work with and could be upgraded more if things went wrong and could do the job.
The ENTHUSIAST in me was disappointed that not buying a Mac Pro 2013 shiny/shiny toy but tempered by the prospect of tinkering with a second hand 5,1 and upgrading to SSD, newer CPU/GPU.
The USER in me was going when am I going to get the machine to do the video editing on.

Come 2019 then wanted to upgrade again.

I would have liked to buy a Mac Pro 2019, however the PURCHASER in me said that is too expensive and cannot justify it.
The IT DEPT person in me was not having an iMac but decided could use a TonyMacx86 Golden Build
The ENTHUSAIST in me was happy that tinkering with a Hack and picking parts to make it all work reliably.
The USER in me was going when am I going to get the new machine to do the video editing on as current machine taking too long.

Come 2022 then having some difficulties so decided that Hack not working for me and splurged on the Base M1 Max Studio.

ENTHUSIAST was happy as new shiny toy.
The IT DEPT person in me was happy as didn't have to spend time tweaking any more.
The USER in me was happy as got a machine that allowed me to get on video editing again reliably.
The PURCHASER in me worked out what a 32Gb M1 Pro mini would be (if it was to launch) and worked out would be what buying the M1 Max Studio for, and as the IT DEPT confirmed would last a long time so wouldn't need to be replacing it anytime soon. M2 Pro Mini pricing confirmed that to be correct.

Come 2023 and M2 Studio launch

USER in me is happy as can still do the tasks I want
IT DEPT is happy as don't have to do anything
PURCHASER is happy as not spending any money (always makes the Purchaser in me happy)
ENTHUSIAST in me is not happy as there is a new shiny toy that I want.

I remember when younger would be pouring over reviews of different motherboards, comparing Abit, DFI, in how easy to tweak for max performance. What CPU Cooler should I buy, should I buy an Nvidia or an AMD GPU card. (over years switched as found what worked best for me) Swapping out components when newer and faster ones came along. I even remember getting out win98lite to strip down that Win98 installation to barest of what needed to try and get some extra performance out of the rig.
When built first games rig then all my mates were saying buy a 3DFX Voodoo card. I however went and bought the first Geforce GPU Card with the DDR rather then SDRAM on it as could see DirectX was future.
However NONE of that was as a USER but was an ENTHUSIAST. As a USER it was can I play the games I want on it. Yes I can.

A lot of the problem arise when the USER and IT DEPT and PURCHASER are all the same person and may also be an IT ENTHUSIAST.

As a USER if I pick up an M2 MBA and it allows me to do tasks A, B, C quicker then on an M1 MBA then am happy.
As an ENTHUSIAST then I may care that the storage is slower on a 256Gb model on an M2 then an M1 but as the overall task is quicker then the USER won't care.
As PURCHASER the difference according to the IT DEPT is too small to justify upgrading.

This is what the poster about Enthusiasts and not Users wanting ECC and Upgrades meant. However when is the same person they tend to forget which role they are in when looking at computers.

 

[goMac]

Yes there are advantages and disadvantages of both ways. Maxed out the GPU can access 192 GB of memory. Something my Windows system can’t do and I can tell a difference in some of my 3D projects.

Sure - but again, that cuts both ways. The SoC has 192 gigs of memory, but the GPU can't access it efficiently because its bandwidth starved.

Capacity doesn't necessarily mean performance. A 16 TB hard drive has a lot of capacity - but that doesn't make my computer quicker. If anything it makes it tough for performance because I'm going to have trouble moving so much data quickly over a tiny pipe.

I've seen Apple make the argument that it's like a GPU with 192 gigs of memory. And maybe for some use cases that's workable. But you can probably only use maybe... 32 gigs of that before you see a performance impact? If you're trying to do something real time.

The chip doesn't have enough bandwidth to actually move hundreds of gigs of data to the GPU for real time rendering from memory.

Is performance going to be better than swapping stuff over from disk into memory? Probably. But that still doesn't actually mean you can maintain performance while using hundreds of gigs of GPU resources.

I'd have to look at what the new 192 gig Instinct has for bandwidth - but given other current GPUs I'm going to guess it has a lot more bandwidth than Apple Silicon. Edit: Yes, it has 5.2 TB/s of memory bandwidth, which is multiple times more than Apple Silicon. It could probably actually handle 192 gigs of VRAM assuming the GPU itself can keep up with the bandwidth.

 

[avro707]

Being able to upgrade the 5,1 kept that machine going from 2010 and it is still going with current macOS 12.6.7.

The only thing it needed was a CPU replacement- all of about $150, a newer GPU and replacing the storage with SSD. Also RAM upgrade.

Much cheaper than buying a whole new Apple machine every two years.

 

[impulse462]

There are 3 basic roles involved with computers

USER
IT DEPT
PURCHASER

each of whom have different views.

USER - I need to be able switch on my computer and perform task A, B, C etc Users want to be able to peform the tasks on the computer that they need to do.
Do I care if I have an ASi Soc, Xeon or a Threadripper - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why would I care if it has a ASi SOC, Xeon or a Threadripper in it. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if it has an Nvidia GPU or an AMD GPU or ASi SoC - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why would I care what brand of GPU my computer has. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fixed storage - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why do I care if the storage is fixed or replaceable NVME Sticks. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fastest storage - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then do I care if it is 1500Mbps, 3000Mbps, 5000-6000Mbps transfer rate. I can do what I need too. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fixed RAM - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why do I care what RAM capacity or how fast it is. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if RAM is ECC or not - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, If Yes then why do I care if it has ECC or Not. That is what an Enthusiast cares about. The IT DEPT will sort out if my task A, B, C requires ECC RAM and get a machine with ECC RAM if it does.
Will be more but paints the picture

IT DEPT - if it breaks how easy is it to fix
GPU - Can I swap out the GPU card or do I need to replace whole machine, If the task requires Software requiring CUDA then will need to be an Nvidia GPU. If using Ray Tracing then Nvidia GPU
CPU - Can I swap out or do I need to replace whole machine
RAM - Can I swap out RAM or do I need to replace whole machine, Does the tasks for the machine require ECC RAM
Storage - Can I swap out Storage or do I need to replace whole machine
Will be more but paints the picture

PURCHASER
How Long will this machine last
Can it be upgraded mid life cycle or do I need to buy a whole new machine which will cost me more.
Will be more but paints the picture

As a User I needed a new machine to do Video Editing in 2013.

I would have liked to buy a Mac Pro 2013, however the PURCHASER in me said that is too expensive and cannot justify it.
The IT DEPT person in me said that a Mac Pro 5,1 would be easier to work with and could be upgraded more if things went wrong and could do the job.
The ENTHUSIAST in me was disappointed that not buying a Mac Pro 2013 shiny/shiny toy but tempered by the prospect of tinkering with a second hand 5,1 and upgrading to SSD, newer CPU/GPU.
The USER in me was going when am I going to get the machine to do the video editing on.

Come 2019 then wanted to upgrade again.

I would have liked to buy a Mac Pro 2019, however the PURCHASER in me said that is too expensive and cannot justify it.
The IT DEPT person in me was not having an iMac but decided could use a TonyMacx86 Golden Build
The ENTHUSAIST in me was happy that tinkering with a Hack and picking parts to make it all work reliably.
The USER in me was going when am I going to get the new machine to do the video editing on as current machine taking too long.

Come 2022 then having some difficulties so decided that Hack not working for me and splurged on the Base M1 Max Studio.

ENTHUSIAST was happy as new shiny toy.
The IT DEPT person in me was happy as didn't have to spend time tweaking any more.
The USER in me was happy as got a machine that allowed me to get on video editing again reliably.
The PURCHASER in me worked out what a 32Gb M1 Pro mini would be (if it was to launch) and worked out would be what buying the M1 Max Studio for, and as the IT DEPT confirmed would last a long time so wouldn't need to be replacing it anytime soon. M2 Pro Mini pricing confirmed that to be correct.

Come 2023 and M2 Studio launch

USER in me is happy as can still do the tasks I want
IT DEPT is happy as don't have to do anything
PURCHASER is happy as not spending any money (always makes the Purchaser in me happy)
ENTHUSIAST in me is not happy as there is a new shiny toy that I want.

I remember when younger would be pouring over reviews of different motherboards, comparing Abit, DFI, in how easy to tweak for max performance. What CPU Cooler should I buy, should I buy an Nvidia or an AMD GPU card. (over years switched as found what worked best for me) Swapping out components when newer and faster ones came along. I even remember getting out win98lite to strip down that Win98 installation to barest of what needed to try and get some extra performance out of the rig.
When built first games rig then all my mates were saying buy a 3DFX Voodoo card. I however went and bought the first Geforce GPU Card with the DDR rather then SDRAM on it as could see DirectX was future.
However NONE of that was as a USER but was an ENTHUSIAST. As a USER it was can I play the games I want on it. Yes I can.

A lot of the problem arise when the USER and IT DEPT and PURCHASER are all the same person and may also be an IT ENTHUSIAST.

As a USER if I pick up an M2 MBA and it allows me to do tasks A, B, C quicker then on an M1 MBA then am happy.
As an ENTHUSIAST then I may care that the storage is slower on a 256Gb model on an M2 then an M1 but as the overall task is quicker then the USER won't care.
As PURCHASER the difference according to the IT DEPT is too small to justify upgrading.

This is what the poster about Enthusiasts and not Users wanting ECC and Upgrades meant. However when is the same person they tend to forget which role they are in when looking at computers.

This is simply inaccurate and/or missing information.

I work at a large research university and while there are plenty of USERS and IT DEPT-esque people (as per your definition), there are also people who are both in one person: someone who cares if the computer is capable of completing tasks A, B, C and someone who cares about upgrading individual components to i) keep the computer relevant to performing ever changing tasks and ii) make the computer last longer without having to upgrade the whole thing and set everything up again from scratch as @avro707 described.

This fact seems to be lost on this board, and I suspect it's due to people really putting stock in apple's marketing. A fixed form workstation w/o upgradeable parts has never been a thing until apple introduced it and gave it credence with the trashcan. Look at any other vendor (Dell, lenovo etc). those workstations are made to be upgraded and have upgradeable component. This is not a conversation people who get these workstations have because its given that the computer will be upgraded part by part in many cases.

 

[MoonCakeTropics]

For the image being weaved in here ... Not ... and a bit too overblown.

There are two feeds , like the MP 2019.

2019 --- two x16 v3 feeds 'x32 worth' ( equivalent aggregate backhaul of one x16 v4 feed).
2023 --- according to the above one x8v4 and one x16v4 ( which equivalent to 'x48 worth' in v3 terms)

x48 > x32. There is net uplift. Not sure how that deserves a 'Boo'.

The other problem is probably not looking at from the PCIe configure utility viewpoint. (2019 had one ... so does 2023)

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213663


Apple appears to be using a higher end , two-input server class PCI-e switch. (not going cheap. ) So there are two pools and the two x16 slots don't both have to be in Pool A or both in Pool B. You can split them if you wish.

So could have one x16 v3 card in pool B and one x16 v4 card in pool A and nobody is being blocked. A fair number of folk have older (v2 , v3 ) , wider ( x8 , x16) card that have sunk costs on and the v4 backhaul's larger aggregate backhaul bandwidth can handle them.

I imagine that doesn't work at all from rogue , non macOS operating systems. [ just frozen at the default configuration. ]

Basically 'old' slot 1 and 3 disappeared along with their MPX connectors and three 8-pin AUX power ports.

Aggregate overall bandwidth isn't down if compare 'apples to apples' of old 2-4-5-6-7-8 to new 1-2-3-4-5-6 ( 6 to 6 )

The x16 v3 bandwidth of slot 3 has pragmatically been folded into the distribution through the switch so there is more to go around. Pragmatically the default 'slot 1' GPU is placed on the internal mesh backhaul inside the chip which is 'crazy' higher than x16 v3, v4, or v5 . So again a net increase in aggregate backhaul bandwidth.

From the backhaul bandwidth perspective there is not much to 'Boo' at here at all.

If talking 'form over function'. Then can 'boo' didn't blow up the default GPU bandwidth increase to go modular form factor. But would be giving up gobs of bandwidth to get that.


P.S. as for the Threadripper. The Threadripper GPU output versus the Utlra's is what???

Fantastic. Your "apples to apples" is a bit disinengious. We are being marketed a V4 faster bus that does no better than a 4 year old machine. Yea, fail and scam are the right words.

 

[Pezimak]

The M2 Ultra is damn fast and you don't need benchmarks for that. We know the results of the M2 Max and the M2 Ultra is more or less a bit slower than the 2x M2 Max. That's not the point. The point is that Apple used an engine from a motorcycle for a rally car. Simply put, Apple doesn't have a Workstation-class processor - the equivalent of a Xeon, Epyc, or Threadripper. Epyc had 128 PCIe4 lines as early as 2019, and as of last year 128 PCIe5 lines for a 1-processor configuration, yet there are multi-processor configurations available.
It is likely that Apple's accountants did not allow the creation of a Workstation-class processor, and unfortunately this pathetic pimple defiling the name Mac Pro was created.

Those same accountants know how to price it to price gouge though that's for Damon sure. That case and a few PCI slots are not costing Apple 3 grand to make, that's for damn sure.

Still the M chip in certain cases can at the very least keep up with workstation class chips like video editing, as seen.

 

[MisterAndrew]

Solved it all with the Mac Pro M3 Ultra Duo 🤓

Maybe thats why they kept the form factor... Apple can scale the software and OS accordingly

View attachment 2218439

Would dual processors double the PCIe lanes? They should have released it like this. At least it would have been something better than the Studio.

 

[Yebubbleman]

There are 3 basic roles involved with computers

USER
IT DEPT
PURCHASER

each of whom have different views.

USER - I need to be able switch on my computer and perform task A, B, C etc Users want to be able to peform the tasks on the computer that they need to do.
Do I care if I have an ASi Soc, Xeon or a Threadripper - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why would I care if it has a ASi SOC, Xeon or a Threadripper in it. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if it has an Nvidia GPU or an AMD GPU or ASi SoC - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why would I care what brand of GPU my computer has. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fixed storage - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why do I care if the storage is fixed or replaceable NVME Sticks. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fastest storage - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then do I care if it is 1500Mbps, 3000Mbps, 5000-6000Mbps transfer rate. I can do what I need too. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fixed RAM - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why do I care what RAM capacity or how fast it is. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if RAM is ECC or not - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, If Yes then why do I care if it has ECC or Not. That is what an Enthusiast cares about. The IT DEPT will sort out if my task A, B, C requires ECC RAM and get a machine with ECC RAM if it does.
Will be more but paints the picture

IT DEPT - if it breaks how easy is it to fix
GPU - Can I swap out the GPU card or do I need to replace whole machine, If the task requires Software requiring CUDA then will need to be an Nvidia GPU. If using Ray Tracing then Nvidia GPU
CPU - Can I swap out or do I need to replace whole machine
RAM - Can I swap out RAM or do I need to replace whole machine, Does the tasks for the machine require ECC RAM
Storage - Can I swap out Storage or do I need to replace whole machine
Will be more but paints the picture

PURCHASER
How Long will this machine last
Can it be upgraded mid life cycle or do I need to buy a whole new machine which will cost me more.
Will be more but paints the picture

As a User I needed a new machine to do Video Editing in 2013.

I would have liked to buy a Mac Pro 2013, however the PURCHASER in me said that is too expensive and cannot justify it.
The IT DEPT person in me said that a Mac Pro 5,1 would be easier to work with and could be upgraded more if things went wrong and could do the job.
The ENTHUSIAST in me was disappointed that not buying a Mac Pro 2013 shiny/shiny toy but tempered by the prospect of tinkering with a second hand 5,1 and upgrading to SSD, newer CPU/GPU.
The USER in me was going when am I going to get the machine to do the video editing on.

Come 2019 then wanted to upgrade again.

I would have liked to buy a Mac Pro 2019, however the PURCHASER in me said that is too expensive and cannot justify it.
The IT DEPT person in me was not having an iMac but decided could use a TonyMacx86 Golden Build
The ENTHUSAIST in me was happy that tinkering with a Hack and picking parts to make it all work reliably.
The USER in me was going when am I going to get the new machine to do the video editing on as current machine taking too long.

Come 2022 then having some difficulties so decided that Hack not working for me and splurged on the Base M1 Max Studio.

ENTHUSIAST was happy as new shiny toy.
The IT DEPT person in me was happy as didn't have to spend time tweaking any more.
The USER in me was happy as got a machine that allowed me to get on video editing again reliably.
The PURCHASER in me worked out what a 32Gb M1 Pro mini would be (if it was to launch) and worked out would be what buying the M1 Max Studio for, and as the IT DEPT confirmed would last a long time so wouldn't need to be replacing it anytime soon. M2 Pro Mini pricing confirmed that to be correct.

Come 2023 and M2 Studio launch

USER in me is happy as can still do the tasks I want
IT DEPT is happy as don't have to do anything
PURCHASER is happy as not spending any money (always makes the Purchaser in me happy)
ENTHUSIAST in me is not happy as there is a new shiny toy that I want.

I remember when younger would be pouring over reviews of different motherboards, comparing Abit, DFI, in how easy to tweak for max performance. What CPU Cooler should I buy, should I buy an Nvidia or an AMD GPU card. (over years switched as found what worked best for me) Swapping out components when newer and faster ones came along. I even remember getting out win98lite to strip down that Win98 installation to barest of what needed to try and get some extra performance out of the rig.
When built first games rig then all my mates were saying buy a 3DFX Voodoo card. I however went and bought the first Geforce GPU Card with the DDR rather then SDRAM on it as could see DirectX was future.
However NONE of that was as a USER but was an ENTHUSIAST. As a USER it was can I play the games I want on it. Yes I can.

A lot of the problem arise when the USER and IT DEPT and PURCHASER are all the same person and may also be an IT ENTHUSIAST.

As a USER if I pick up an M2 MBA and it allows me to do tasks A, B, C quicker then on an M1 MBA then am happy.
As an ENTHUSIAST then I may care that the storage is slower on a 256Gb model on an M2 then an M1 but as the overall task is quicker then the USER won't care.
As PURCHASER the difference according to the IT DEPT is too small to justify upgrading.

This is what the poster about Enthusiasts and not Users wanting ECC and Upgrades meant. However when is the same person they tend to forget which role they are in when looking at computers.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this breakdown. Having worked in IT for multiple Apple and mixed platform shops out there over the last couple of decades, I can tell you that IT, at large, doesn't care about modularity when it comes to Apple. They have an AppleCare Enterprise agreement and that's pretty much that. If there's a problem, you invoke AppleCare and they send someone on-site to perform the repair. Either that or they'll be set up for self-service repair so that IT technicians can order Apple parts and do the Apple repairs. Plus, it's not like Apple Macs have been THAT repairable in the last ten years. IT would never, in a billion years, think of going the Hackintosh route because you literally get zero support and if something breaks, you're at the mercy of online forums for your support. IT generally gravitates towards first party support all around. Maybe Enthusiasts would go that route, but not the kind of customer base that would ever buy something with an "Ultra" SoC, let alone a "Max" SoC. And definitely not someone who would rely on the stability of their Mac for a living.

I'll agree that enthusiasts are the ones looking at spec sheets and are largely the crowd looking at these 2023 Mac Pros with disdain due to their limitations over the 2019 models. But certainly, users don't care so long as the machine does the job in an acceptable timeframe and with, at most, acceptable limitations.

Purchasers? If we're talking about high-end Macs with "Ultra" SoCs, that's probably a business and not a consumer/prosumer. They generally don't care so long as it's the right machine for the job and so long as there's good ROI.

 

[goMac]

Would dual processors double the PCIe lanes? They should have released it like this. At least it would have been something better than the Studio.

Yes. I'm guessing that's the missing bit here. An M2 Extreme version would have added another 32x PCIe lanes, which is acceptable in a workstation class product.

There are a lot of gaps in the Mac Pro that all point back to a missing M2 Extreme.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

There are 3 basic roles involved with computers

USER
IT DEPT
PURCHASER

each of whom have different views.

USER - I need to be able switch on my computer and perform task A, B, C etc Users want to be able to peform the tasks on the computer that they need to do.
Do I care if I have an ASi Soc, Xeon or a Threadripper - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why would I care if it has a ASi SOC, Xeon or a Threadripper in it. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if it has an Nvidia GPU or an AMD GPU or ASi SoC - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why would I care what brand of GPU my computer has. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fixed storage - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why do I care if the storage is fixed or replaceable NVME Sticks. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fastest storage - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then do I care if it is 1500Mbps, 3000Mbps, 5000-6000Mbps transfer rate. I can do what I need too. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if has fixed RAM - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, if Yes then why do I care what RAM capacity or how fast it is. That is what an Enthusiast cares about.
Do I care if RAM is ECC or not - Does my computer allow me to perform task A, B, C, If Yes then why do I care if it has ECC or Not. That is what an Enthusiast cares about. The IT DEPT will sort out if my task A, B, C requires ECC RAM and get a machine with ECC RAM if it does.
Will be more but paints the picture

IT DEPT - if it breaks how easy is it to fix
GPU - Can I swap out the GPU card or do I need to replace whole machine, If the task requires Software requiring CUDA then will need to be an Nvidia GPU. If using Ray Tracing then Nvidia GPU
CPU - Can I swap out or do I need to replace whole machine
RAM - Can I swap out RAM or do I need to replace whole machine, Does the tasks for the machine require ECC RAM
Storage - Can I swap out Storage or do I need to replace whole machine
Will be more but paints the picture

PURCHASER
How Long will this machine last
Can it be upgraded mid life cycle or do I need to buy a whole new machine which will cost me more.
Will be more but paints the picture

As a User I needed a new machine to do Video Editing in 2013.

I would have liked to buy a Mac Pro 2013, however the PURCHASER in me said that is too expensive and cannot justify it.
The IT DEPT person in me said that a Mac Pro 5,1 would be easier to work with and could be upgraded more if things went wrong and could do the job.
The ENTHUSIAST in me was disappointed that not buying a Mac Pro 2013 shiny/shiny toy but tempered by the prospect of tinkering with a second hand 5,1 and upgrading to SSD, newer CPU/GPU.
The USER in me was going when am I going to get the machine to do the video editing on.

Come 2019 then wanted to upgrade again.

I would have liked to buy a Mac Pro 2019, however the PURCHASER in me said that is too expensive and cannot justify it.
The IT DEPT person in me was not having an iMac but decided could use a TonyMacx86 Golden Build
The ENTHUSAIST in me was happy that tinkering with a Hack and picking parts to make it all work reliably.
The USER in me was going when am I going to get the new machine to do the video editing on as current machine taking too long.

Come 2022 then having some difficulties so decided that Hack not working for me and splurged on the Base M1 Max Studio.

ENTHUSIAST was happy as new shiny toy.
The IT DEPT person in me was happy as didn't have to spend time tweaking any more.
The USER in me was happy as got a machine that allowed me to get on video editing again reliably.
The PURCHASER in me worked out what a 32Gb M1 Pro mini would be (if it was to launch) and worked out would be what buying the M1 Max Studio for, and as the IT DEPT confirmed would last a long time so wouldn't need to be replacing it anytime soon. M2 Pro Mini pricing confirmed that to be correct.

Come 2023 and M2 Studio launch

USER in me is happy as can still do the tasks I want
IT DEPT is happy as don't have to do anything
PURCHASER is happy as not spending any money (always makes the Purchaser in me happy)
ENTHUSIAST in me is not happy as there is a new shiny toy that I want.

I remember when younger would be pouring over reviews of different motherboards, comparing Abit, DFI, in how easy to tweak for max performance. What CPU Cooler should I buy, should I buy an Nvidia or an AMD GPU card. (over years switched as found what worked best for me) Swapping out components when newer and faster ones came along. I even remember getting out win98lite to strip down that Win98 installation to barest of what needed to try and get some extra performance out of the rig.
When built first games rig then all my mates were saying buy a 3DFX Voodoo card. I however went and bought the first Geforce GPU Card with the DDR rather then SDRAM on it as could see DirectX was future.
However NONE of that was as a USER but was an ENTHUSIAST. As a USER it was can I play the games I want on it. Yes I can.

A lot of the problem arise when the USER and IT DEPT and PURCHASER are all the same person and may also be an IT ENTHUSIAST.

As a USER if I pick up an M2 MBA and it allows me to do tasks A, B, C quicker then on an M1 MBA then am happy.
As an ENTHUSIAST then I may care that the storage is slower on a 256Gb model on an M2 then an M1 but as the overall task is quicker then the USER won't care.
As PURCHASER the difference according to the IT DEPT is too small to justify upgrading.

This is what the poster about Enthusiasts and not Users wanting ECC and Upgrades meant. However when is the same person they tend to forget which role they are in when looking at computers.

TLDR wrong.

 

[PowerMike G5]

I was in an Apple store the other day and saw the new Mac Pro. Under the PCIE expansion slot utility, it showed that one of the PCIE pools was already at 88% with just the stock I/O card installed.

 

[deconstruct60]

Would dual processors double the PCIe lanes? They should have released it like this. At least it would have been something better than the Studio.

Probably, not. First, this have the assumption that the whole PCI-e subsystem are on the the Max Die. That isn't necessarily true.

Second , the single and dual CPU package MP 2009-2012 has the same main logic board. MP 2013 only one main logic board . MP 2019 only one main logic board. Mac Studio only one main logic board (minor changes to accomedate larger SoC , but the space for larger SoC marked off on board populated with smaller model). The MP 2023 units sales would be lower than all of those and yet Apple is going to throw more main board design costs at this than the did the MP 2009 model? Really?


Pretty good chance still would one main logic board for a Ultra and Extreme. Some folks like to propose nothing that there would be no Utlra Mac Pro. That probably would not happen for cost reasons. Entry price slide up $1K even with the Ultra. If had to minimally start at Extreme that would have been much higher. That isn't going to help the Mac Pro.

With the two input PCI-e switch Apple can run two x16 PCI-e v4 feeds to the switch and call it a day. The rest of the main board PCI-e v4 route downstream from the switch stays exactly the same. Ultra doesn't have quite a complete backhaul ( x8 worth + x16) but the trace routes dont really have to be much different at all to the switch. Apple is making the "Extreme package" ... they can put the pins for the two x16 feeds in relatively the same spot. (the package is bigger so will suck up more pins outside the Ultra's footprint.

The main board lost three 8-pin AUX power connects. Pretty likely those would still be gone with the 'Extreme' SoC present on basically the same mainboard. The board that shipped probably isn't a major change at all from the 'alternative universe'.

The 'extreme' would likely stress the internal mesh network interconnect even more. There wouldn't necessarily be copious spare bandwidth to hand to active PCI-e controller root headers. ( just like probably not hooking up 16 Thunderbolt sockets to the outside world. )

 

[deconstruct60]

Yes. I'm guessing that's the missing bit here. An M2 Extreme version would have added another 32x PCIe lanes, which is acceptable in a workstation class product.

So is ECC RAM and that isn't here either. With an even bigger ginormous iGPU would Apple really be aiming at the most generic workstation feature checklist?

Apple would also have to crank up internal bisection bandwidth to handle the iGPU stuff. Have internal issues, there may not be 'copious extra bandwidth to go around'.

 

[Mac3Duser]

Ecc memory is mostly needed for scientific or financial calculations, where data corruption would be critical.
It was surely necessary for a device that can boot on linux or windows also, but with mac os only today, the mac pro is mainly used for creative people with adobe and then sound or video.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

A scam is when you’re being deceived. Apple isn’t deceiving anyone as far as I can tell, and I’m sure their marketing is accurate.

If it doesn’t meet your needs then that’s another matter.

 

[Matty_TypeR]

A scam is when you’re being deceived. Apple isn’t deceiving anyone as far as I can tell, and I’m sure their marketing is accurate.

If it doesn’t meet your needs then that’s another matter.

I have to disagree. Its a studio Pro with gimped PCIe. Its no Mac pro with ECC ram or additional upgrade path's for GPU or anything else but storage via PCIe. The only claim to fame is they used the Mac pro Case. It looks like a pro only.

If apple were so confident they would release 7900xtx drivers, but they wont because it would spank there so called NEW Mac pro.

 

[Xenobius]

If apple were so confident they would release 7900xtx drivers, but they wont because it would spank there so called NEW Mac pro.

Apple Silicon has its obvious advantages, but when it comes to pure computing power, it really doesn't stand a chance: 7900XTX - 61.5 Tflops vs M2 Ultra - 27.2 Tflops. In addition, several graphics cards could be used in the old Mac Pro. And yet the Mac Pro 2019 already had obsolete components when it debuted. It would indeed look pathetic if a vintage machine was kicking the ass of Apple's latest computer. So unfortunately there is unlikely to be any drivers for the new Radeons.

From the cheapest Mac Mini to the Mac Studio, Apple's computers are brilliant. Unfortunately, the Mac Pro 2023 is a failure. Apple doesn't have the technology to drive a workstation machine, and yet they decided to sell this scam.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

I have to disagree. Its a studio Pro with gimped PCIe. Its no Mac pro with ECC ram or additional upgrade path's for GPU or anything else but storage via PCIe. The only claim to fame is they used the Mac pro Case. It looks like a pro only.

If apple were so confident they would release 7900xtx drivers, but they wont because it would spank their so called NEW Mac pro.

That’s based off a previous product and a set of opinions, which doesn’t make this new Mac Pro a ‘scam’. Disappointing or unexpected? Yes.

 

[Basic75]

ECC memory is mostly needed for scientific or financial calculations, where data corruption would be critical.

No. ECC memory should be used everywhere. We use cell phones and home computers for banking. I'd like to trust my memory. How do you know that random crash yesterday wasn't bad memory? Without ECC you don't.

 

[Matty_TypeR]

That’s based off a previous product and a set of opinions, which doesn’t make this new Mac Pro a ‘scam’. Disappointing or unexpected? Yes.

Thats based on Every Mac pro previously released. So this is a Studio Pro not a Mac Pro like version's before it. Apple should have called it the studio pro, I would be happy with that. It is not a Mac pro.