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macrumors 68040
Mar 28, 2010
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Thats based on Every Mac pro previously released. So this is a Studio Pro not a Mac Pro like version's before it. Apple should have called it the studio pro, I would be happy with that. It is not a Mac pro.
That still doesn’t prove this product is a ‘scam’. I’ll reiterate - a scam is defined by deception, and Apple is not deceiving anyone. Technical data and specifications are open to the public.

The phrase Mac Pro is branding, it doesn’t mean anything beyond delivering a level of features that exceeds the consumer-orientated version of the product. Does this mean that AirPods Pro is a ‘scam’ since it doesn’t cater the needs of professional music producers?
 
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Basic75

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May 17, 2011
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Thats based on Every Mac pro previously released. So this is a Studio Pro not a Mac Pro like version's before it. Apple should have called it the studio pro, I would be happy with that. It is not a Mac pro.
Does the name really matter? Suppose they had called it the Studio Pro. What would that change about the current situation?
 

seek3r

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Aug 16, 2010
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I was curious what the Mac Pro 2023 base price buys for a PC workstation so I went to Newegg and added things to my cart. It came out to an ASUS Pro W790 Sage motherboard, a Radeon Pro W7800 GPU, a 1300W 80 Plus Titanium PSU, an Intel Xeon W5-3435X 16-core CPU, 96 GB of DDR5 ECC RAM, a big CPU cooler, an SK hynix Platinum P41 2TB PCIe NVMe, and a case. I'm not sure if I'm missing anything else to make it complete. It's been a while since I built a PC from scratch.

Consider trying to figure all that out and having to run Windows or Linux it would be really tempting to just buy the new Mac Pro. It's not that much of a scam I guess.
Worth pointing out that the Mac Pro isnt competing against home built systems, most folks buying it arent choosing between picking parts on Newegg and the MP. It's aimed at corporate buyers, if I sent a parts list to our IT dept they might legit send the request back to me with troll gifs because there's no way they'd think I was serious.
 

Matty_TypeR

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Oct 1, 2016
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The Mac pro was apples work station offering, ECC ram, GPU upgrades, Memory upgrades, you could change on board storage as and when required. The Mac Pro class of machine was its top tier product.

So yes the new Mac pro should be called the studio pro because Apple have called it a Mac Pro when its a studio in a mac pro case with PCIe. with this approach apple could release a new mac mini with the M2 ultra and then what? the mini studio, or would it remain the mini because its small.

Scam or hoodwinked or led to believe, what ever you want to call it is Apple calling this a Mac pro, which is a workstation class machine, which it's not..
 
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Apple Knowledge Navigator

macrumors 68040
Mar 28, 2010
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So yes the new Mac pro should be called the studio pro because Apple have called it a Mac Pro when its a studio in a mac pro case with PCIe.
They're two different classes of product with different features. You're only bringing them together through the SoC.
 
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Xenobius

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Original poster
Dec 10, 2019
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Where do they say that?
MacPro_scam.jpg
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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Where in any of that does Apple explitictily extol hypermodularization as being the 'workstation' property? Heavy workloads (... nothing really to do with turning the system off and tinkering on the inside. It has to do with sytsem turned on. ). 7 ProRes 8K streams isn't a heavy workload? No where is Apple claiming before or now that the Mac Pro is the 'does everything for everybody' system.

The Mac Pro 2013 was a 'Mac Pro'. Apple makes it so they get to name it. Still is at the top of the line up with abilities the rest of the line up doesn't have. Still has removable boot drive (even if can't remove Apple's, you can simply use that as a maintenance boot disk and ignore it for day-to-day usage. Some T2 'haters' did that with the MP 2019 which effectively had the same basic Apple drive restrictions. This is not new at all. ). Multiple internal drives. Higher aggregate I/O bandwidth than the rest of the line up.

The quiet , 1400W workstation is also something that isn't new (again Apple was saying same things in 2019 , if not 2013) . The MPX modules were basically to enable thunderbolt and to provide substantively less noisy GPU solutions.
 

MisterAndrew

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Sep 15, 2015
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Worth pointing out that the Mac Pro isnt competing against home built systems, most folks buying it arent choosing between picking parts on Newegg and the MP. It's aimed at corporate buyers, if I sent a parts list to our IT dept they might legit send the request back to me with troll gifs because there's no way they'd think I was serious.
I know that. An HP Z8 Fury G5 is comparable to the DIY system. It runs about $5k with the same 16 core Xeon and an RTX A2000 GPU. That graphics card runs about $365 on Amazon. The W7900 is $4k.

 

MacsRgr8

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Sep 8, 2002
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I mean ... we've been waiting since 2020 for some big ARM reveal ... and it ends up being a Mac Studio with more ports. Maybe they just needed to get something out there so it would be in the lineup, but it's pretty disappointing. Maybe the M3 chips will bring something more special. I don't know.
Yep... Apple could have made it easier on themselves and applied the same trick more than a year ago with an M1 Ultra Mac Pro...?
"be done with the Intel -> AS transition".

It feels Apple needed to get rid of the Intel Mac Pro 1st half 2023, and the M3 Ultra is too far away...

I wonder... when the first MacBook Pro gets the M3 Max... and the Mac Pro M2 Ultra will still cost as much as it does now.... that really would feel like a rip-off.
 
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IconDRT

macrumors member
Aug 18, 2022
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Seattle, WA
I get where AKN is coming from but if you have to hunt down and pour over technical data sheets and fine print disclaimers to figure out what Apple means by “workstation” then Apple marketing using the term Mac Pro is at best disingenuous. I’m sure the product marketing team already knew they had something that wouldn’t meet the needs of their most demanding users, so had to bury the truth a bit. They spent, what, a minute and a half or so on the Mac Pro and then moved on to the next topic? Apple, like that guy running Reddit, figured 80% will be happy with the Mac Pro decision and the vociferous 20% will eventually die down/die off/move on and that’ll be that. So a bit of a scam. Only hope is many shortcomings are addressed in M3 like ZombiePhysicist mentions above (ECC, etc).
 
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impulse462

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Jun 3, 2009
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A person in our research group requested more storage and a 2nd GPU to increase our DL experiment workload. I installed an 8TB sabrent nvme in a PCI express card as well as an RTX A6000 GPU in our dell workstation (the other workstation we have is a custom build with a threadripper). I then setup linux drivers and had the A6000 running workloads in pytorch within an hour because Dell didn't throw a tantrum/hissyfit at nvidia and refuse to sign drivers thus NOT screwing over all their customers unlike our favorite company.

Finally, I also installed a 1060 we have floating around the lab to serve as a GPU to output video for the dell workstation, if needed, so the A6000 can focus purely on compute tasks.

A routine situation using a prebuilt workstation we bought to add parts for additional functionality of the computer for years to come.

This scenario is apparently too beyond what apple can (read: wants) to provide. Which is more sad and pathetic? apples behavior or the apple apologists stating that this situation isn't "professional" because apple said so. I'm not quite sure.
 
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ori69

macrumors member
Mar 10, 2022
47
25
The CPU is better than the best CPU of the previous model (over $12k) and the GPU has a metal score that beats the Radeon 6950 XT - and it has PCIe expansion

It’s not a scam. It’s typical Max Tech clickbait garbage. In about a weeks time they’ll be calling the best Mac ever made with the usual dramatic thumbnail and yelling.

The GPU doesn't beat the RX6950XT

M2ULTRAMETAL 2023-06-22 o 10.09.37.png


and CPU performance is at the level of the i9 12900K

CinebenchM2Uvs12900K.png
 
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ori69

macrumors member
Mar 10, 2022
47
25
In Logic Pro, the Mac Pro 2023 M2 Ultra performs worse than the Mac Pro 2019 Intel Xeon 28 core.

1688298682719.png
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
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I keep saying it, but I fully expect things to be different with M3. We might finally see the M3 Extreme. But Apple can't just come out and say "We just needed to complete the transition, so here is a half-*** Mac Pro....ENJOY". Of course they would market it as great because that is what you do when you run a business.

They were under the gun, already missing their two year plan, have a very old 2019 Mac Pro with 2019 components with 2023 prices and M1/M2 Extremes were scrapped. It wouldn't be until 2025 possibly before the M3 Ultra/Extreme comes out. So they had no choice. They couldn't just update the 2019 Mac Pro with new Intel as that would go against the overall objective to cease partnership with Intel and that would just delay Rosetta and Intel support even further, leading to more complex macOS and development than it needs to be.

I mean the evidence is all over. This was a mad rush product AFTER the rumored M2 Extreme was scrapped.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
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I keep saying it, but I fully expect things to be different with M3. We might finally see the M3 Extreme.
Except... a M2 Extreme would have had 48 CPU cores and 384GB RAM. M3 Extreme might up that to - what - 512GB RAM? It will still be limited by how many LPDDR packages will fit on/around the SoC dies - and there's still a topological mystery as to how the ultrafusion link will expand to 4 dies and leave space around them for RAM connections. The number of PCIe lanes won't necessarily change - 16 per die (with the first die's 16 used for the Apple SSDs and on-board peripherals) so 48 (still less than the 2019 MP but, of course PCIe4). Maybe the M3 will get PCIe 5... Or maybe M3 will be little more than the M2 designs with the minimum of changes needed to build them using 3nm technology.

Meanwhile the competition is already offering 64 cores, 2TB of RAM, 128 lanes of PCIe plus established support for those pesky NVIDIA and AMD GPUs that every True Pro seems to want, but which won't happen on Mac until Apple U-turns on their Apple Silicon GPU only policy and buries the hatchet with NVIDIA.

Basically Apple just don't have a horse in the high-end workstation CPU race and even gluing 4 MacBook Pro CPUs together won't solve that. Pre Apple Silicon, they could buy one from Intel. Now they'd have to design a whole new die - an expensive undertaking - that U-turned on the Apple Silicon principles of unified RAM and integrated Graphics/Media/Neural processors, just for a small and shrinking niche who need high-end GPU and massive RAM for MacOS-only workflows.

Where are they going to focus their design effort - adding more PCIe lanes for the Mac Pro niche which will sit unused on every other Mac, or, maybe, squeezing in another core or two for the MacBook Pro market which shifts an order of magnitude more units? Apple Silicon is a great product for everything from the iPad through the studio (and the iGoggles of course) - but if you want a high-end workstation it just isn't the tool for the job.

There was clearly a modest market for a Studio Ultra with Slots which Apple could satisfy with minimal R&D costs, recycling the 2019 case (which was probably the most expensive part of the MP to design and tool up for). The so-called "scam" of 16 PCIe 4 lanes shared between 8 slots is actually a hefty upgrade from what external TB-to-PCIe cages offer. Yeah, I think that maybe they should have called it the "Studio Tower" or something rather than try and pass it off as a successor to the Mac Pro - but my surprise is that they even bothered, not that they didn't whip out a magic new Threadripper-killer as "one more thing".
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
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Except... a M2 Extreme would have had 48 CPU cores and 384GB RAM. M3 Extreme might up that to - what - 512GB RAM? It will still be limited by how many LPDDR packages will fit on/around the SoC dies - and there's still a topological mystery as to how the ultrafusion link will expand to 4 dies and leave space around them for RAM connections. The number of PCIe lanes won't necessarily change - 16 per die (with the first die's 16 used for the Apple SSDs and on-board peripherals) so 48 (still less than the 2019 MP but, of course PCIe4). Maybe the M3 will get PCIe 5... Or maybe M3 will be little more than the M2 designs with the minimum of changes needed to build them using 3nm technology.

Meanwhile the competition is already offering 64 cores, 2TB of RAM, 128 lanes of PCIe plus established support for those pesky NVIDIA and AMD GPUs that every True Pro seems to want, but which won't happen on Mac until Apple U-turns on their Apple Silicon GPU only policy and buries the hatchet with NVIDIA.

Basically Apple just don't have a horse in the high-end workstation CPU race and even gluing 4 MacBook Pro CPUs together won't solve that. Pre Apple Silicon, they could buy one from Intel. Now they'd have to design a whole new die - an expensive undertaking - that U-turned on the Apple Silicon principles of unified RAM and integrated Graphics/Media/Neural processors, just for a small and shrinking niche who need high-end GPU and massive RAM for MacOS-only workflows.

Where are they going to focus their design effort - adding more PCIe lanes for the Mac Pro niche which will sit unused on every other Mac, or, maybe, squeezing in another core or two for the MacBook Pro market which shifts an order of magnitude more units? Apple Silicon is a great product for everything from the iPad through the studio (and the iGoggles of course) - but if you want a high-end workstation it just isn't the tool for the job.

There was clearly a modest market for a Studio Ultra with Slots which Apple could satisfy with minimal R&D costs, recycling the 2019 case (which was probably the most expensive part of the MP to design and tool up for). The so-called "scam" of 16 PCIe 4 lanes shared between 8 slots is actually a hefty upgrade from what external TB-to-PCIe cages offer. Yeah, I think that maybe they should have called it the "Studio Tower" or something rather than try and pass it off as a successor to the Mac Pro - but my surprise is that they even bothered, not that they didn't whip out a magic new Threadripper-killer as "one more thing".
Extreme would also have more PCIe lanes. And there were rumors a while back of Apple working on an SOC RAM and slotted RAM setup. Might not see that, but could be. But I doubt it, I don't think they have enough people buying and using more than 192GB of RAM anyway to make it worth while.
 
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