MP 7,1 Mac Pro 8.1 - WHAT IF...

[innerproduct]

Why not just release the m2ultra max studio? My guess is that it is ready but they want to have it on a about 1.5 year cadence and in that case wwdc is the sane spot but without much hoopla. If there is a true Mac Pro, it has to add something substantial to differentiate from the studio. Obvious answer there is expansion a la 2019. Lacking that, there need to be something else. 4xSoC is the obvious answer but if it doesn’t have the upgradability the market wouldn’t be that big.
If we just take a step back it seems to me that the most sane and obvious answer is that will get (in due time) the updated studio as well as the 2019 style MP with all the power and expansion needed. All other solutions point to Apple backtracking on their new (since 2018) approach to satisfy pros with what they actually say they need.

 

[mode11]

Apple always have the option of just repositioning the Mac Pro, as they did with the trashcan and iMac Pro. Although there was a public mea culpa over the 6,1, and the 7,1 took advantage of the Xeon parts bin to make a highly expandable chassis, Apple don't have to make a direct replacement. In fact, most of this thread has been speculation on how that would even be possible under the SoC paradigm.

It's possible the Studio will be yet another single-generation Pro product. The new Mac Pro will then take its place at the top of the tree, as something in between the 7,1 and Studio.

 

[mattspace]

It's possible the Studio will be yet another single-generation Pro product. The new Mac Pro will then take its place at the top of the tree, as something in between the 7,1 and Studio.

But the Studio is the (higher end) 27" iMac & iMac Pro replacement, not a Mac Pro replacement. The Studio isn't going anywhere, and the 27" iMac is not returning.

The Studio Display, plus Mac Mini or Mac Studio as a replacement for the 27" iMac is the best strategic thing Apple has done in years.

 

[jmho]

I think the "apology" over the 6.1 is really overblown. I've seen people calling it an "Apology tour" as if Apple was travelling around repeatedly apologising for every aspect of the 6.1. In reality Apple invited 5 journalists to Cupertino for a sneak peak of the 7.1 where Phil Schiller indirectly said he was sorry for the 6.1's lack of upgrades, and Craig Federighi said the "painted into a thermal corner" line - then this was sensationalised by headlines as "Apple apologises for trash can!", and 5 years later the story has just kept growing and growing.

Now that the 7.1 has been out for 4 years or so, Apple will be trying to re-contextualise the success of the 6.1. I think it's clear that to MacRumors members, the 7.1 is the better machine, but I wonder how well it actually sold compared to the significantly cheaper and more accessible 6.1.

It could be that now in 2023 Apple actually thinks the 6.1 was the better performing product, and maybe they also think that Apple Silicon is exactly what they need to fix its thermal and upgradability shortcomings.

I must admit that personally I don't care about the form factor at all, I just care about the GPU. If Apple can give me a powerful GPU then I don't care if it's in a trash can, cheese grater, or a soggy cardboard box .

 

[mode11]

But the Studio is the (higher end) 27" iMac & iMac Pro replacement, not a Mac Pro replacement. The Studio isn't going anywhere, and the 27" iMac is not returning.

The Studio Display, plus Mac Mini or Mac Studio as a replacement for the 27" iMac is the best strategic thing Apple has done in years.

The M2 Pro mini is stepping on the Studio’s toes though - it’s actually more expensive at the same spec. All depends on how high the new MP goes spec wise.

 

[mode11]

In reality Apple invited 5 journalists to Cupertino for a sneak peak of the 7.1

In actual reality, there was no ‘peeking’ at the 7,1 for another 2.5 years, with deliveries beginning in volume the following year. They hadn’t begun to design the 7,1 at the time of the ‘thermal corner’ event.

The only reason the friendly journalists were invited was to aid Apple’s messaging to pro customers. Essentially “please don’t defect to Windows, we do intend to make proper pro machines again”.

 

[mattspace]

The M2 Pro mini is stepping on the Studio’s toes though - it’s actually more expensive at the same spec. All depends on how high the new MP goes spec wise.

yeah, but that's just the generational overlap - that always happens, leapfrogging within the range as new tech is pushed out model by model.

 

[mode11]

yeah, but that's just the generational overlap - that always happens, leapfrogging within the range as new tech is pushed out model by model.

The tech is one thing, but the price is another. The mini price is overlapping the Studio, despite the former being a Pro and the latter a Max. And Apple doesn’t discount over time as models get older; the new M2 Studio will presumably be the same price the M1 was the day before.

The presence of a Pro mini on one side and the Mac Pro on the other will potentially leave the Studio pretty squeezed in the line-up.

 

[Boil]

The presence of a Pro mini on one side and the Mac Pro on the other will potentially leave the Studio pretty squeezed in the line-up.

Yeah, why have the Studio at all, everyone should be glad to jump from a $1K+ M2 Pro Mac mini to a $6K+ Mn Ultra Mac Pro...

 

[jmho]

In actual reality, there was no ‘peeking’ at the 7,1 for another 2.5 years, with deliveries beginning in volume the following year. They hadn’t begun to design the 7,1 at the time of the ‘thermal corner’ event.

The only reason the friendly journalists were invited was to aid Apple’s messaging to pro customers. Essentially “please don’t defect to Windows, we do intend to make proper pro machines again”.

Do you have sources for any of this?

I'll admit that "sneak peek" was probably the wrong word choice since yes obviously they weren't PHYSICALLY peeking at the actual finished hardware, but the daring fireball article opens with "Apple is currently hard at work on a “completely rethought” Mac Pro, with a modular design that can accommodate high-end CPUs and big honking hot-running GPUs, and which should make it easier for Apple to update with new components on a regular basis. They’re also working on Apple-branded pro displays to go with them." which is obviously the 7,1 and the Pro Display XDR.

So I'm just wondering if you have sources that Apple hadn't begun to design the 7,1 at that time?

Also I'm wondering if you have sources that Apple were holding the "event" trying to prevent certain people from defecting to Windows, or if that's just another guess? I mean it sounds plausible, but you seem awfully sure that they weren't just trying to gauge whether or not the public actually wanted the 7,1.

 

[mode11]

Yeah, why have the Studio at all, everyone should be glad to jump from a $1K+ M2 Pro Mac mini to a $6K+ Mn Ultra Mac Pro...

I had speculated that the new MP would be somewhere between the Studio and the MP 7,1 in scope, not a direct replacement. So probably cheaper than it is now.

 

[mode11]

So I'm just wondering if you have sources that Apple hadn't begun to design the 7,1 at that time?

No, surprisingly Apple haven’t been forthcoming. But where do you think The Daring Fireball got their information FFS? Apple PR? I’m sure Apple were technically hard at work - just since that morning.

I mean, how long do you think it takes to design a PC workstation? You seem to feel 2.5 years is implausibly short. 3 years? 5 years? I expect Lenovo would beg to differ.

Also I'm wondering if you have sources that Apple were holding the "event" trying to prevent certain people from defecting to Windows, or if that's just another guess?

Why do you think that Apple, a company legendary for secrecy, pre-announced a product years in advance? You’d have to assume they’d only do so if they felt they had absolutely no other choice. Care to suggest an alternative reason? Or were they just struck by a sudden urge for openness, that disappeared immediately afterwards?

 

[mode11]

you seem awfully sure that they weren't just trying to gauge whether or not the public actually wanted the 7,1.

Sorry, missed that bit. Are you saying they then monitored internet commentary for the next few years, before releasing the machine (that was already in full development)?

 

[jmho]

No, surprisingly Apple haven’t been forthcoming. But where do you think The Daring Fireball got their information FFS? Apple PR? I’m sure Apple were technically hard at work - just since that morning.

Why do you think that Apple, a company legendary for secrecy, pre-announced a product years in advance? You’d have to assume they’d only do so if they felt they had absolutely no other choice. Care to suggest an alternative reason? Or were they just struck by a sudden urge for openness, that disappeared immediately afterwards?

Daring Fireball / John Gruber was one of the 5 people at the meeting so he had information directly from Apple, and if you read the article Apple specifically tell him they're in the middle of designing what would eventually become the 7.1.

My entire point is that we have no idea what's going on inside Apple, and there is a tendency in this forum to just make assumptions and guesses and treat them as gospel - i.e. that the 6.1 was a failure, when for all we know Apple might have been incredibly happy with the 6.1, and were only disappointed by its inability to be upgraded.

 

[mattspace]

The presence of a Pro mini on one side and the Mac Pro on the other will potentially leave the Studio pretty squeezed in the line-up.

The next Mac Pro is going to have entry pricing above the highest price Studio config. Get used to that idea, so you're not disappointed when it happens. Also, get used to ALL prices going up by a significant percentage.

The studio isn't just the processor, it supports a greater number of displays, has more ports etc. What's more likely to happen is that the Pro mini will be cancelled once there's a Studio that can replace it, so the Mini stays an entry level machine, as the iMac now is.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Daring Fireball / John Gruber was one of the 5 people at the meeting so he had information directly from Apple, and if you read the article Apple specifically tell him they're in the middle of designing what would eventually become the 7.1.

My entire point is that we have no idea what's going on inside Apple, and there is a tendency in this forum to just make assumptions and guesses and treat them as gospel - i.e. that the 6.1 was a failure, when for all we know Apple might have been incredibly happy with the 6.1, and were only disappointed by its inability to be upgraded.

Right, because if the cow doesn’t confess, you can’t know the truth! 🙄

And it’s totally no big deal when apple goes from customer team to customer team at different locations around the country asking why the trashcan sucks so much, learning why it’s a failure (beyond the thermal corner), then calls for a giant press conference explaining how it learned from that tour of “please don’t leave us, we’ll actually make you a machine that you’ll find useful for your actual workflows”, and surprise surprise, everyone giving them a resounding “hold the courage, and make it f‘n expandable”, and then conveying the results of that…wait for it…apology tour.

 

[jmho]

And it’s totally no big deal when apple goes from customer team to customer team at different locations around the country asking why the trashcan sucks so much, learning why it’s a failure (beyond the thermal corner), then calls for a giant press conference explaining how it learned from that tour of “please don’t leave us, we’ll actually make you a machine that you’ll find useful for your actual workflows”, and surprise surprise, everyone giving them a resounding “hold the courage, and make it f‘n expandable”, and then conveying the results of that…wait for it…apology tour.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just would like some evidence that any of this actually happened, then I'll accept that what you're saying is correct.

All I can find is evidence of a very small low-key meeting not a "giant press conference". I'd love to read up about the trashcan customer team feedback sessions and the giant press conference though.

 

[mode11]

Daring Fireball / John Gruber was one of the 5 people at the meeting so he had information directly from Apple, and if you read the article Apple specifically tell him they're in the middle of designing what would eventually become the 7.1.

Yes, directly from Apple... PR. Like I said. The article doesn't say they're in the "middle" (of what, a 5-year process to design a Xeon workstation??) - it says they're "hard at work". Gruber is even hopeful the new machine will be out the following year. Apple didn't specify how long they'd been working on it, but logically, it can't have been that long given the time it then took to emerge. Given their assurances about how important the product was to them, you'd have to assume they weren't dragging their feet with its development at that point.

My entire point is that we have no idea what's going on inside Apple, and there is a tendency in this forum to just make assumptions and guesses and treat them as gospel

Well sure, but equally, we shouldn't just take Apple PR as gospel either. Apple invited a bunch of favoured journalists to the session because they were trying to manage a sensitive message. To get invited for a tour of Apple's R&D labs, followed by a chat with the company's key figures, is red-carpet stuff. I doubt Apple got much push back over their narrative, and to be fair, it's hard to blame the journalists. If they had, it would be the last such invite they got.

- i.e. that the 6.1 was a failure,

It sounds like you bought a 6,1, or at least like them a lot. Personally, I've got no animus towards the machine; it's a beautiful piece of design, and the spiritual ancestor to the G4 Cube (which I'm clearly a fan of). Any design is going to find fans. There will have been people out there for whom a compact, powerful workstation - perhaps for use on location - was exactly what they were looking for. Those people were not wrong. Unfortunately, a greater number of people - at least in Apple's estimation, and I assume they've done the research - wanted a tower.

when for all we know Apple might have been incredibly happy with the 6.1, and were only disappointed by its inability to be upgraded.

I'm not sure what basis Apple would have been 'incredibly happy' with the 6,1. As a piece of design? Ultimately, it needed to be a sales success for them to be truly happy with it.

Anyone who has built an SFF PC is aware of the compromises involved. Apple took a hell of a risk miniaturising the machine that far, and it's hard to have sympathy for them when it turned out to have no room for development. It was a completely unforced error. They had no good reason to think that PC power consumption was about to take a nose-dive; they just got carried away with a cool design. Possibly because they wanted to show they could still innovate, without Mr. Jobs at the helm.

 

[jmho]

It sounds like you bought a 6,1, or at least like them a lot.

Nope, never owned one.

I'm just trying to work out if Apple truly did hate the 6.1 or if it's just something that we've all been repeating so often that we've all just started to accept it as truth.

You're correct that Apple is mostly just interested in whether or not a product is a sales success or not, which is why I'm very curious as to whether the 7.1 gamble actually paid off or if it was a well loved machine that nobody bought.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just would like some evidence that any of this actually happened, then I'll accept that what you're saying is correct.

All I can find is evidence of a very small low-key meeting not a "giant press conference". I'd love to read up about the trashcan customer team feedback sessions and the giant press conference though.

I believe during reports of those meetings apple itself noted they built a "work flow" team and that team went to many sites to hear what people wanted in a Mac Pro and also brought those customers in-house as consultants. I recall there was a full video where Phil Schiller mentioned after speaking with a whole number of customers they realized there is no 'typical' type of "professional" customers and the Mac Pro had to serve a wide variety of pro users:

Apple’s iMac Pro is a love letter to developers | TechCrunch

he iMac Pro exists because it turns out that there is a lot of air underneath the aging Mac Pro and above the incredibly popular MacBook Pro. A

techcrunch.com

“First of all, when we talk about pro customers, it’s important to be clear that there isn’t one prototypical pro customer. Pro is such a broad term, and it covers many many categories of customers. And we care about all of these categories, and there’s a variety of different products those customers want,” says Schiller.

“There’s music creators, there’s video editors, there’s graphic designers — a really great segment with the Mac. There’s scientists, engineers, architects, software programmers — increasingly growing, particularly our App development in the app store. So there are many many things and people called pros, Pro workflows, so we should be careful not to over simplify and say ‘Pros want this’ or ‘don’t want that’ — it’s much more complex than that.“

That said youre wrong about the 'one' press junket. Here are at least 2 apologies about the Mac Pro, one in 2017, the next in 2018, and the 2017 article refers back to an earlier 'candid' press event. So that's 3 right there:

Apple’s iMac Pro is a love letter to developers | TechCrunch

he iMac Pro exists because it turns out that there is a lot of air underneath the aging Mac Pro and above the incredibly popular MacBook Pro. A

techcrunch.com

Mac Pro Reset​

You may recall that back in April of this year, Apple was abnormally candid about its failures with the Mac Pro. It had painted itself into acorner with that design

Apple's 2019 Mac Pro will be shaped by workflows | TechCrunch

A year ago, I visited the Apple campus in Cupertino to figure out where the hell the new Mac Pro was. I joined a round-table discussion with Apple SVPs

techcrunch.com

So at the very least, 3 press junkets over 2 years (and I do believe there were more than that) apologizing and talking about 'rethinking' the Mac Pro, IMO, qualifies as a tour in and of itself.

 

[jmho]

Nice, thanks. That's really interesting that Apple have had a "Pro Workflow Team" since 2018. I guess that does explain why Macs definitely seem a lot more "practical" in the last 5 years. Gives me hope for the 8.1 too.

I did also find a job listing for a position on that team and it looks like Apple is looking for people with an interest in AR, VR, and ML, which is promising for those of us that want powerful GPUs.

 

[mode11]

The next Mac Pro is going to have entry pricing above the highest price Studio config. Get used to that idea, so you're not disappointed when it happens. Also, get used to ALL prices going up by a significant percentage.

Don't worry, I'm not talking myself into the idea of an affordable Mac Pro. I was merely speculating from an engineering standpoint i.e. Apple doesn't need to replicate the Xeon MP with an ASi one, it might just do something different. Given what we currently know about the capabilities of Apple's SoC designs, it's possible that an 8-slot machine is not on the cards, and the replacement will therefore be smaller / simpler. Though as you say, it may well be more expensive regardless.

The studio isn't just the processor, it supports a greater number of displays, has more ports etc. What's more likely to happen is that the Pro mini will be cancelled once there's a Studio that can replace it, so the Mini stays an entry level machine, as the iMac now is.

It's hard to see why a Studio can't replace it right now; the M2 Max already exists. Perhaps there's a manufacturing issue with the Ultra variant this time around. Alternatively, the Studio is being deliberately kept on the M1. Why might that be? If the Mac Pro (now) needs to use the M2 Ultra, Apple won't want it to have competition from a cheaper machine with the same CPU / GPU. And if the M2 Ultra Studio has already been out a while by the time the MP is released, the introduction of the latter won't have much thunder.

 

[mode11]

Nope, never owned one.

I'm just trying to work out if Apple truly did hate the 6.1 or if it's just something that we've all been repeating so often that we've all just started to accept it as truth.

I doubt Apple 'hate' the 6,1. I'm not sure what you're saying there. I believe them when they said it was impossible to meaningfully upgrade; that's what you get when you reduce the volume of your workstation by a factor of 8. The cylindrical design also relied on spreading GPU heat output over two points of a three-sided heatsink. As crossfire / SLI fell out of favour, that also seemed like a losing strategy. And finally, relying 100% on external expansion means greater mess and expense, which wasn't particularly popular with anyone.

You're correct that Apple is mostly just interested in whether or not a product is a sales success or not, which is why I'm very curious as to whether the 7.1 gamble actually paid off or if it was a well loved machine that nobody bought.

Yes, it would be interesting. One can't assume the 7,1 sold any better than the 6,1. It will likely have had a higher average selling price (though I presume it also costs more to build), so it may still be more profitable even if sales were the same or even a bit lower.

 

[prefuse07]

Yeah, I too highly doubt they 'hate' the 6,1 -- more so that they tried to force a sub-par product onto the market without thinking it through, and they got the blowback that they deserved for it. Not saying that the 6,1 is sub-par, but in comparison with what a true Mac Pro should be (modular) the 6,1 ain't it -- they should've just called it Mac Studio right then and there...

But then we may not have gotten the 7,1? and perhaps the Mac Pro line would've been canned then and there? (again who knows, but I have a feeling that Timmy has been wanting to get rid of that product line since he took the helm, which is further evidenced by his little "all people need is an iPad" comment)


Timmy's eagerness to force things is exactly what I believe will happen with the VR goggles (1997 says hello!), but we will see...

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Yeah, I too highly doubt they 'hate' the 6,1 -- more so that they tried to force a sub-par product onto the market without thinking it through, and they got the blowback that they deserved for it. Not saying that the 6,1 is sub-par, but in comparison with what a true Mac Pro should be (modular) the 6,1 ain't it -- they should've just called it Mac Studio right then and there...

But then we may not have gotten the 7,1? and perhaps the Mac Pro line would've been canned then and there? (again who knows, but I have a feeling that Timmy has been wanting to get rid of that product line since he took the helm, which is further evidenced by his little "all people need is an iPad" comment)


Timmy's eagerness to force things is exactly what I believe will happen with the VR goggles (1997 says hello!), but we will see...

I always loved the trashcan for what it is. It's a gorgeous design. A dense powerful little machine. It's basically a better Mac Studio. Or Mac mini Pro. There was no problem with the machine in and of itself. The problem was positioning it to be a Mac Pro, which it just wasn't a satisfactory machine for that role.