MP 7,1 Mac Pro 8.1 - WHAT IF...

[maikerukun]

really need an non apple storage slot. Or at the very lest an case with mac pro 7.1 like access to the apple slots with apple only upgrades that need an full system wipe to pull off.

What do you mean? You can add non Apple storage...or am I misunderstanding what you're asking for...

 

[maikerukun]

The 7.1 is the 5.1. They even went some distance to make it obvious in terms of looks.

"You want a cheese grater? Here you go!"

I think that, much more than any closed door board room meeting where' people are whispering "I'm sorry", the 7.1 is a beautiful "Sorry, you were right".

And don't for a second confuse people who got into the 5.1 late via eBay with those who bought it from Apple at launch. To me, at the time, the 5.1 was... if not eye-wateringly expensive, at least pretty costly. I had to settle for a single CPU 3.33 GHz 6-core with an ATI 5770 for my personal use computer.

One difference I do think it's worth pointing out is that while my 5.1 config was considered a good 'price performance' tier, the entry level 7.1 was always considered weak, and stepping up got more expensive, quicker.
But at no point at launch was the 5.1 a cheap case that enthusiasts threw themselves at to 'spec out'.

The 7.1 is fine as it is, but the transition is being forced.* At least another generation would lead to more updated components such as MPX modules, which would be great on the used market. I didn't buy my 7.1 new, but I didn't have to wait long until I found a good deal. That's how the enthusiast market needs to look at that computer. Also, I find it kind of nice—borderline surprising—that Apple actually did release updated MPX modules. They are quite a unique design and not just a few screw holes that need to be moved.

I'd be pretty happy staying with the 7.1, combing the internet for high end parts, if it wasn't for the Xeon's weak single core performance (real or imagined). I might still do exactly that. I want to see the 8.1 specs and then I'll do some tradeoff calculations and see where I land. But to be honest, I think an AS Mac Pro is the better overall computer even if it gives up quite a bit of max GPU grunt (but I'm not running dual Duos anytime soon).


*= It's easy to see why: Tim Cook has said he is not interested in "piecing together other people's stuff" and calling it a product (CPUs from Intel and GPUs from AMD). There is almost no way around that if you want to present a traditional Workstation. The buyers expect to be able to do exactly that themselves.

I 100% agree with you here. The 7.1 is literally 2 generation upgrades away from being the absolute perfect workstation. Get rid of that gross current Xeon board sitting in there and add neural engines and media engines galore, upgrade to PCIe 5 and it's literally a unit that will be EXCELLENT in usage for the next 10 years EASY.

 

[maikerukun]

Looking at historical pricing it seems like the Mac Pro in 2012 started at $2499, and choosing the top cpu would put that up to just over $6k. Meanwhile the 7.1 starts at $6k and the top cpu will put you at $13k.

I'm not saying the 5.1 was cheap, but it was in a different price class to the 7.1.

In my head I'm thinking that $8k sounds like a fair price for an Apple Silicon Mac Pro - in 5.1 land $8k buys a top spec machine, in 7.1 land $8k buys you a clown computer.

Not true at all...You can get a really decent starter workstation. Same one used back in 2019 to make the Disney+ Bundle commercials in fact.

 

[avro707]

Keep in mind that, when 5,1 was around, there were no ‘prosumer’ options. For instance if you wanted Photoshop or Logic Pro simply to run smooth, you almost had to get the Mac Pro.

Today it’s an entirely different story. These apps and the alike run perfect on entry level Macs, leaving the Mac Pro as a real niche for those who need the absolute most power-to-profit ratio in their workflows, and who want the internal expansion.

I sort of agree, my 5,1 when new was a quad core 3.2ghz 8gb ram with Radeon 5870 1gb graphics card and 1TB HDD. Not quite base spec but close.

To be sure it was faster than a 2.8ghz i7 iMac 27” with 4870 and 32gb ram. But the 5,1 was a big chunk of money at the time for a nearly base spec machine with a Cinema Display added.

At the time various PC solutions you could build would better it, but not in reliability.

That machine from 2010 is still going - it’s the dual x5690 in my signature now.

Fast forward to the 7,1 - it cost more but also does more in the spec I purchased.

 

[maikerukun]

This waiting game is getting quite tiring… but in the meantime there have been some quite impressive developments on the software side for 3d rendering. Maya is now native and most renderers are available. Octane got a 30-40% speed boost in the latest version and Blender 3.5 is out with almost full metal functionality throughout. (And in blender, m2max manages to close in on a single 6800 while easily beating out a m1ultra )
Seems to me that the mac pro will be released at a good time. Had it been released last year, none of these sw would have been ready.
The only things that really is missing now (for higher end stuff) is Nuke and HW support for unreal engines nanite tech.

I mean this are definitely fantastic updates and developments...but managing to start closing in on being about 25% as fast as the Mac Pro sitting on my desk in one of 6 to 10 professional GPU intensive applications we all tend to use isn't enough to pull us away from that machine. That said, if they can manage to match the power of 6 of my M2 Max MacBook Pro's into the new Mac Pro...now we're cooking with grease

 

[prefuse07]

Fam,

There is HOPE after all!!!

Introducing AMD Radeon™ PRO W7000 Series Graphics cards for Workstation Professionals and Creators

Which means MPX modules and drivers should shortly follow *fingers crossed*

Looking at history -- the W6800 came out on June 8th, 2021, and then 2 months later, on August 3rd, 2021, apple released the W6800X and W6800X Duo MPX modules.

So this puts us right on schedule for WWDC -- W7000 is announced on April 13th, 2023 -- 2 months later, ~Mid June (when WWDC takes place), apple announces the W7900XTX MPX Module and maybe even a W7800X Duo!

Meanwhile, macOS 13.4 is released containing updated AMD drivers for RDNA3.

I love it!

I must say, I was tuned into NAMM, since it starts today, but then saw this and it's almost better than anything from NAMM

 

[kiiso]

Great info @prefuse07, absolutely agree with your logic!

 

[Boil]

Drivers maybe, MPX doubtful...?

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Fam,

There is HOPE after all!!!

View attachment 2188423

Introducing AMD Radeon™ PRO W7000 Series Graphics cards for Workstation Professionals and Creators

View attachment 2188430

View attachment 2188431

View attachment 2188434

Which means MPX modules and drivers should shortly follow *fingers crossed*

Looking at history -- the W6800 came out on June 8th, 2021, and then 2 months later, on August 3rd, 2021, apple released the W6800X and W6800X Duo MPX modules.

So this puts us right on schedule for WWDC -- W7000 is announced on April 13th, 2023 -- 2 months later, ~Mid June (when WWDC takes place), apple announces the W7900XTX MPX Module and maybe even a W7800X Duo!

Meanwhile, macOS 13.4 is released containing updated AMD drivers for RDNA3.

I love it!

I must say, I was tuned into NAMM, since it starts today, but then saw this and it's almost better than anything from NAMM

Will apple do a 7800duo!? If not, doesn’t that mean the 6800duo would still be king? And I agree @prefuse07 , great find and thanks for sharing it!

 

[prefuse07]

Drivers maybe, MPX doubtful...?

You know, your hatred of the 7,1 is really 🥱

7,1 Mac Pro needs to die...

 

[Boil]

You know, your hatred of the 7,1 is really 🥱

LOL, okay, infer what you will...

I don't hate the 7,1 at all, and the comment (from a totally different thread) was more joking / focused on wanting the ASi Mac Pro to show up to replace the 7,1 Intel Mac Pro...

As for "MPX doubtful", because it seems doubtful Apple will release a very expensive MPX module for a system that is on the way out the door; releasing the proper drivers is much more cost-effective for Apple...

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

LOL, okay, infer what you will...

I don't hate the 7,1 at all, and the comment (from a totally different thread) was more joking / focused on wanting the ASi Mac Pro to show up to replace the 7,1 Intel Mac Pro...

As for "MPX doubtful", because it seems doubtful Apple will release a very expensive MPX module for a system that is on the way out the door; releasing the proper drivers is much more cost-effective for Apple...

Unless that MPX module would also work on their new 8,1 Mac Pro…

 

[prefuse07]

Unless that MPX module would also work on their new 8,1 Mac Pro…

^exactly this

This way, not only can they generate revenue through the 8,1, but also "milk" the 7,1.

It's a win-win, no matter what way you look at it, and remember, AS is nowhere near being able to compete with AMD and especially Nvidia in the GPU space.

 

[Boil]

Unless that MPX module would also work on their new 8,1 Mac Pro…

^exactly this

This way, not only can they generate revenue through the 8,1, but also "milk" the 7,1.

It's a win-win, no matter what way you look at it, and remember, AS is nowhere near being able to compete with AMD and especially Nvidia in the GPU space.

That would make producing new MPX GPUs more realistic I guess...

But I would rather see Apple astound us all with astonishingly powerful ASi (GP)GPU(s)...?

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

That would make producing new MPX GPUs more realistic I guess...

But I would rather see Apple astound us all with astonishingly powerful ASi (GP)GPU(s)...?

That is not in anyway mutually exclusive to them also providing third-party graphics cards. I think it would be great if Apple also produced their own MPXGPU In addition to having the AMD offering. More choice and competition would be great!

And that would also bring the prospect that we could get an apple made MPXGPU on the old 7,1?!

 

[maikerukun]

Fam,

There is HOPE after all!!!

View attachment 2188423

Introducing AMD Radeon™ PRO W7000 Series Graphics cards for Workstation Professionals and Creators

View attachment 2188430

View attachment 2188431

View attachment 2188434

Which means MPX modules and drivers should shortly follow *fingers crossed*

Looking at history -- the W6800 came out on June 8th, 2021, and then 2 months later, on August 3rd, 2021, apple released the W6800X and W6800X Duo MPX modules.

So this puts us right on schedule for WWDC -- W7000 is announced on April 13th, 2023 -- 2 months later, ~Mid June (when WWDC takes place), apple announces the W7900XTX MPX Module and maybe even a W7800X Duo!

Meanwhile, macOS 13.4 is released containing updated AMD drivers for RDNA3.

I love it!

I must say, I was tuned into NAMM, since it starts today, but then saw this and it's almost better than anything from NAMM

I'm basically a water faucet right now. Wheeeeeeet LMFAO. This is....dear lord please come to the 7.1

I've got high hopes for the 8.1 Mac Pro now btw. I'm 100% going to purchase the 8.1 as long as it's equivalent to if not more powerful than my current 7.1 specs. But if it doesn't, this announcement right here can remedy my feelings about that.

 

[prefuse07]

I'm basically a water faucet right now. Wheeeeeeet LMFAO. This is....dear lord please come to the 7.1

I've got high hopes for the 8.1 Mac Pro now btw. I'm 100% going to purchase the 8.1 as long as it's equivalent to if not more powerful than my current 7.1 specs. But if it doesn't, this announcement right here can remedy my feelings about that.

Since this IS the WHAT IF thread -- I am REALLY hoping apple announces that the 8,1 is basically a refreshed 7,1 (using the same case), with PCIe 5, an apple x86 chip replacing the Xeon (WHICH WOULD STILL MAKE IT APPLE SILICON BTW) and then also featuring a W7800X Duo which will fit into both the 8,1 AND 7,1, and i'm hoping they also make some sort of speech around "continuing to support the 7,1 and the professionals that invested so heavily in them" while they work diligently behind the scenes on really getting their AS up to par with Nvidia, and then blowing them totally out of the water in a few years from now.

Of course, the chances of any of this actually happening..... but one can dream!

 

[mode11]

There is zero chance of Apple making an x86 CPU. Even if they had an x86 license, they‘d hardly outcompete Intel and AMD at their first attempt, nor recoup the colossal development costs of making a CPU for one final x86 Mac Pro model.

it also seems unlikely that Apple will ‘blow Nvidia out of the water’, given the latter dominate the PC GPU market, and Apple have yet to even support RT. Apple’s GPU development is principally driven by the needs of the iPhone. It would make sense for Apple to support the new AMD PCIe GPUs, but we’ve yet to find out whether this will be possible with ASi.

 

[prefuse07]

There is zero chance of Apple making an x86 CPU. Even if they had an x86 license, they‘d hardly outcompete Intel and AMD at their first attempt, nor recoup the colossal development costs of making a CPU for one final x86 Mac Pro model.

it also seems unlikely that Apple will ‘blow Nvidia out of the water’, given the latter dominate the PC GPU market, and Apple have yet to even support RT. Apple’s GPU development is principally driven by the needs of the iPhone. It would make sense for Apple to support the new AMD PCIe GPUs, but we’ve yet to find out whether this will be possible with ASi.

Good point -- I had totally forgot about the licensing aspect.

Alright well, just give us updated RDNA3 drivers and a W7900X and W7800X Duo MPX modules which will also fit into the 7,1, (in addition to coming in the 8,1), then announce continued support for the 7,1 while working behind the scenes on developing the **** out of AS.

 

[maikerukun]

Since this IS the WHAT IF thread -- I am REALLY hoping apple announces that the 8,1 is basically a refreshed 7,1 (using the same case), with PCIe 5, an apple x86 chip replacing the Xeon (WHICH WOULD STILL MAKE IT APPLE SILICON BTW) and then also featuring a W7800X Duo which will fit into both the 8,1 AND 7,1, and i'm hoping they also make some sort of speech around "continuing to support the 7,1 and the professionals that invested so heavily in them" while they work diligently behind the scenes on really getting their AS up to par with Nvidia, and then blowing them totally out of the water in a few years from now.

Of course, the chances of any of this actually happening..... but one can dream!

I don't know fam, sounds possible to me!

 

[deconstruct60]

Will apple do a 7800duo!?

Probably not . all it takes is a good looks at thr W7800 and W7900 tech specs . First, there is no Infinty fabric ability . So how would the two GpPU talk to each other like the previous two generations of duo? These cards are not like previous ‘Solo’ models .

kludge them up with a PCIe switch on the board? that has problem….

Second the TDP of one of these is 260W . 2x that is 520. . Barely squeaking under the 550W ( MPX connector power 475 and standard bus power 75 ) . Haven’t powered the two Thunderbolt controllers or any delivery power to those ports. Haven’t powered the PCI switch to bind them .

( AMD’s W6800 is 250W .Apple may have underclocked theirs a bit, but would need to walk the clocks back even more for the 7800 . No IF on AMD’s 7800 either ,but that is indicative that no one but Apple is asking for if. If Apple is dropping out of being big time customer why is AMD throwing money at the extra function . The CDNA line up is the one AMD is targeting IF for ) . )

If not, doesn’t that mean the 6800duo would still be king?

probably far cheaper for apple to spend zero new R&D and just continue to sell that . On the huge if they were pushing MPX up a hill with little synergy with Apple silicon direction . ( MPX largely solves a problem of the main package being GPU - Display controller empty. )

And I agree @prefuse07 , great find and thanks for sharing it!

The huge cloud is thos huge gins in Maya and otheres reported on the previous page largely resulted from very focused app dev focus on Apple silicon . Apps that have been chasing multiple GPU families genrenally haven’t been showing these gains . Which path is Apple going to want devs to follow?

 

[prefuse07]

Probably not . all it takes is a good looks at thr W7800 and W7900 tech specs . First, there is no Infinty fabric ability . So how would the two GpPU talk to each other like the previous two generations of duo? These cards are not like previous ‘Solo’ models .

kludge them up with a PCIe switch on the board? that has problem….

You've got a point here, so now I am more inclined to think they wouldn't go for Duo but instead a W7900XTX...?

Update: After looking further into this I now also have doubts about your first post above (it seems you've failed again, young grasshopper).

For instance:

Besides improvements in performance and efficiency, CDNA 3 will contain a 4th generation Infinity Fabric and a next generation Infinity Cache.

SOURCE

Second the TDP of one of these is 260W . 2x that is 520. . Barely squeaking under the 550W ( MPX connector power 475 and standard bus power 75 ) . Haven’t powered the two Thunderbolt controllers or any delivery power to those ports. Haven’t powered the PCI switch to bind them .

( AMD’s W6800 is 250W .Apple may have underclocked theirs a bit, but would need to walk the clocks back even more for the 7800 . No IF on AMD’s 7800 either ,but that is indicative that no one but Apple is asking for if. If Apple is dropping out of being big time customer why is AMD throwing money at the extra function . The CDNA line up is the one AMD is targeting IF for ) . )

However on this one you failed, and here is why:

Yes, The AMD Radeon Pro W6800 has a TDP of 250W

However:

The SINGLE W6800X MPX has a TDP of 400W

The W6800X Duo MPX also has a TDP of 400W

Which means IF apple were to release new MPX modules, it is highly likely they would follow the same path with a W7900X, and W7800X Duo -- in other words, your TDP calculations are way off. It's not as simple as doubling the AMD card.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

7800duo here we come! 😜 @prefuse07 👍

 

[maikerukun]

7800duo here we come! 😜 @prefuse07 👍

You can't just say that and then not post some reason why had me excited AF LOLOL

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

You can't just say that and then not post some reason why had me excited AF LOLOL

‘You may regret asking for a reason!

Couple of days ago the 6800duo hit its lowest price ever at 3700 new (back up today)| before recently there was zero price cuts!

A mere coincidence you say…or…or is it a sign encoded in that graph! I bet if you convert that to binary it equals 7802! 😜