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goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
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But can they risk stymying the sales of the Apple Headset by insisting on Mac development tools? It's one thing when it's for a wildly popular product like the iPhone - developers will just suck it up - but different when Apple are trying to establish an expensive / niche new product.
Why not? They did it for years with the iPhone and it paid off. Windows development for iOS still requires a tethered Mac (which means a hardware sale for Apple) - and even thats relatively recent. 5 years ago-ish a tethered Mac wasn't really an option either. You pretty much had to have a Mac for iPhone development.

They will totally want to lock up the authoring space as a moat just like they did with development tools for iPhone. Does that mean the hardware won't suck? No. But they won't just give away Apple headset development to Microsoft.

While Unreal will likely be supported I bet there will be a ton of Mac only authoring and pipeline tools that will be required as part of any workflow.
 

mattspace

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I really doubt anyone is going to be able to plug an Apple headset into a Windows machine in the near future and do Unreal development on it. They'll keep that locked down while they can.

People in the real world don't "use" ARKit to make AR applications for iOS devices, they use Unity / Unreal to work to the common features of ARKit & ARCore, and ARKit is the dumb pipe to the sensors. Very few studios are going to kit up with Apple gear to develop for Apple's headset beyond a single testing unit. They're going to continue to develop and debug on whatever platform gives them the fastest, and cheapest, and most flexible hardware, which includes th HMDs.
 

mattspace

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Windows development for iOS still requires a tethered Mac (which means a hardware sale for Apple) - and even thats relatively recent.

One tethered mac, for a whole studio, not one per developer, and a 3D AR/VR/XR studio faced with the option to buy all in on Apple gear to do the actual work of development, Vs. exiting the Apple market - that's an easy answer to leave the Apple market.
 

AndreeOnline

macrumors 6502a
Aug 15, 2014
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But can they risk stymying the sales of the Apple Headset by insisting on Mac development tools?

Yes they can. 💯

Then again, I don't think Apple has ever felt that Xcode requirement has even been a risk to their product sales.

I'll admit that I don't see what the problem would be in the first place, to develop content for a headset on a Mac.
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
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Oct 22, 2009
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I know this isn't a response to me - but I kind of feel like what I said is being misconstrued.

It's not uncommon for vendors to have to hide Windows gear when Apple comes to visit. If Apple can't even handle Windows machines being in eye line - it's laughable that they're just going to accept that content creation for an Apple Headset on Windows. It's even likely that some content creation pipelines will be locked to special tools that only run on the Mac by Apple to force Mac hardware sales. I really doubt anyone is going to be able to plug an Apple headset into a Windows machine in the near future and do Unreal development on it. They'll keep that locked down while they can.

Does that mean Apple's hardware is good right now or in the future? No. But that's different than saying Apple isn't going to pull out of the market. They'll stay in because they don't tolerate key workflows for their products being Windows only. The entire reason they put out the consumption devices and own the distribution channels is they want to own the whole pipeline.
How do you feel about this? I mean, granted your opinion is true, how does it make you feel??

And how would you feel if you were able to develop on their headset via Windows PC?

And do you think their relationship with Epic and the outcome of their lawsuit will have an impact on it?
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
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People in the real world don't "use" ARKit to make AR applications for iOS devices, they use Unity / Unreal to work to the common features of ARKit & ARCore, and ARKit is the dumb pipe to the sensors.

You can build your content on a Windows PC - sure. But you can't deploy it to an iOS device without a Mac. Which means pretty much everyone thats working directly with the AR content on a device needs a Mac.

That's like saying you can do iOS development on a PC because Adobe XD runs on a PC. Sure, you can do part of the pipeline on a Windows box - but at the end of the day you're still going to need a Mac.

(That's also a pretty gross simplification. ARKit doesn't have a "dumb pipe" mode. Which means the common code between something like ARKit an ARCore is not actually very common. Usually the common code is the rendering code, while the anchoring code is fairly custom because ARKit insists on it's anchoring system.)

Very few studios are going to kit up with Apple gear to develop for Apple's headset beyond a single testing unit. They're going to continue to develop and debug on whatever platform gives them the fastest, and cheapest, and most flexible hardware, which includes th HMDs.

I don't think it's realistic that any studio doing VR work is going to have a single headset.

Might there be a lot of ports? Sure. But there's still going to need to be considerable testing and optimization for Apple Silicon.

And Apple is also probably going to be pushing a considerable amount of content that is specific to their hardware, and there's going to be non-game content that will probably be built specifically using their pipeline tools.

One tethered mac, for a whole studio, not one per developer, and a 3D AR/VR/XR studio faced with the option to buy all in on Apple gear to do the actual work of development, Vs. exiting the Apple market - that's an easy answer to leave the Apple market.

I don't think it's realistic that VR studios are going to have one Apple headset tethered to a Mac mini in a closet somewhere.

Apple's going to be looking at this as an iPhone moment. Meta is kind of floundering. VR isn't really taking off. There is a chance Apple comes in and becomes a big player or the biggest player in the VR market very quickly. And if Apple can pull that off, they'll use that to force Apple hardware and software on everyone because that's what Apple does.

How do you feel about this? I mean, granted your opinion is true, how does it make you feel??

And how would you feel if you were able to develop on their headset via Windows PC?

I don't know that it makes me feel anything. Developing for Apple systems has always required a Mac. There's never been Xcode for Windows. That's always how it's been. You either get used to it - or you stop developing for Apple hardware.

And do you think their relationship with Epic and the outcome of their lawsuit will have an impact on it?

I think someone saw RealityOS code in Unreal Engine at some point - so it seems likely that Unreal Engine will get RealityOS support. That also means there are probably Apple engineers contributing to Unreal. Tethering to an Apple Headset is almost guaranteed to only work on a Mac though. And Apple's not paying their engineers to do that work with the intention that Windows is going to be used for RealityOS development in Unreal.

Apple exists to sell more Apple hardware, software, and services. Everything they do is to get you to buy another Apple product. That's why you can't get iMessage, Final Cut Pro, Logic, or Xcode on Windows.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
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Yes they can. 💯

Then again, I don't think Apple has ever felt that Xcode requirement has even been a risk to their product sales.

I'll admit that I don't see what the problem would be in the first place, to develop content for a headset on a Mac.
It depends what you mean by content. If it's apps, or video content, then sure, of course use a Mac. To date, the content for VR headsets has largely been games though, and games development is mostly PC based, for the reasons mattspace gave.

My comment was really in the context of the role of the new Mac Pro. If people choose to buy one and use it to develop for the headset (assuming either get released), then great. But it seems a bit of a risk to try to 'force' a role for the new Mac Pro by requiring a Mac to develop for the headset (sure, any Mac would do, but people creating e.g. Unreal content will want a machine with a decent GPU). Everyone seems to expect the headset to be very expensive, and VR hasn't really broken through in general, so adding another barrier to its adoption may not be a good move.
 

mattspace

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You can build your content on a Windows PC - sure. But you can't deploy it to an iOS device without a Mac. Which means pretty much everyone thats working directly with the AR content on a device needs a Mac.

The Mac is in a server rack, and functions as a headless peripheral. No human "uses" it - it's a peripheral, like a NAS.

That's like saying you can do iOS development on a PC because Adobe XD runs on a PC. Sure, you can do part of the pipeline on a Windows box - but at the end of the day you're still going to need a Mac.

iOS apps can be written entirely in Unreal and Unity, or indeed in Xojo (RealBasic) from what I've been researching. It's not "part of the pipeline" that can be made on Windows, it's the entire development process from start to deploying on a device.

The involvement of a Mac in the process is faceless, and unknown by the actual developers, any more than they're aware of the brand of storage in their workstations.

(That's also a pretty gross simplification. ARKit doesn't have a "dumb pipe" mode. Which means the common code between something like ARKit an ARCore is not actually very common. Usually the common code is the rendering code, while the anchoring code is fairly custom because ARKit insists on it's anchoring system.)

The "use" of ARKit to make AR apps as they are actually made by people making them is literally selecting it from a droplist in the Unity / Unreal IDE. No one makes special Metal code, no one makes special ARKit stuff. Unity and Unreal handle that plumbing.

Unity and Unreal are the platform. iOS and iOS devices are just dumb hardware to run Unity and Unreal apps. That is the truth of AR as it exists on Apple devices.

I don't think it's realistic that any studio doing VR work is going to have a single headset.

The developers are going to be using a multitude of headsets from HTC / Varjo etc. They'll be using the ones that play best with their Windows workstations.

Might there be a lot of ports? Sure. But there's still going to need to be considerable testing and optimization for Apple Silicon.

In a games studio for Apple devices, all the development is done on Windows, and testing only happens on the actual Apple devices once everything runs in the Unreal simulator.

It is far more likely that pattern will carry over, than Game / AR developers will kit up on Apple branded gear for the developers / content producers to use.

And Apple is also probably going to be pushing a considerable amount of content that is specific to their hardware, and there's going to be non-game content that will probably be built specifically using their pipeline tools.

Yup, and it will be built using Windows machines, just like the games that are built specifically for Apple hardware are built on Windows machines.

Because Game engine IDE developers are better at building developer tools for dealing with 3D than Apple is. So no one is going to waste their time using Apple's janky garbage (go listen to developers - Apple's toolchain is a dumpster fire), when the big U's atually know how to do this stuff.

I don't think it's realistic that VR studios are going to have one Apple headset tethered to a Mac mini in a closet somewhere.

They might have an Apple headset connected to whatever mac is necessary to run it as a final testing machine, but no one is kitting out a studio full of Macs and Apple headsets, unless Apple is supplying them the hardware for free.

Again, Game developers making games exclusively for Apple Arcade, games that Apple has approached them to make, games that Apple markets on broadcast TV to promote their Apple-device-only service, are not made with Macs.

Apple's going to be looking at this as an iPhone moment. Meta is kind of floundering. VR isn't really taking off. There is a chance Apple comes in and becomes a big player or the biggest player in the VR market very quickly. And if Apple can pull that off, they'll use that to force Apple hardware and software on everyone because that's what Apple does.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.

VR is doing very well (outside of Meta, whose problems are specific to Meta, not VR itself) for what it is, and what it will always be. It has deep traction in training, simulation, industrial design, all areas where, guess what, immersive stereoscopically separated 3D is the literal point of the exercise.

Where VR has not done so well, is people trying to find a way to do things that aren't specific to three-dimensional activities, using a VR headset - watching a movie, desktop flatscreen computing etc.

Surprise surprise, VR is like Welding and VR headsets are like welding helmets - exceptionally good for deep skill tasks.

There's no iPhone moment for an Apple headset - it's an AppleTV moment at best.
 

iPadified

macrumors 68020
Apr 25, 2017
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Where VR has not done so well, is people trying to find a way to do things that aren't specific to three-dimensional activities, using a VR headset - watching a movie, desktop flatscreen computing etc.
Sounds like something Apple would succeed with. Taking an existing but poorly implemented technology and transform it to something useful. Like the iPhone did for the phone market. The market for 2D flat screen content is likely much larger than the 3D market which is a requirement to move the needle in a company the size of Apple. Tim always talk about AR and less about VR which might be a hint for their aims. Anyway, I welcome some innovation in the screen market.
 

mattspace

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Sounds like something Apple would succeed with. Taking an existing but poorly implemented technology and transform it to something useful. Like the iPhone did for the phone market. The market for 2D flat screen content is likely much larger than the 3D market which is a requirement to move the needle in a company the size of Apple. Tim always talk about AR and less about VR which might be a hint for their aims. Anyway, I welcome some innovation in the screen market.

I guess the thing is though that traditional 2d activities aren't hampered by being on existing screens. They're certainly not hampered in way that the solution is "strap a set of screens to your face".
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
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For AR glasses to work, they'd need to be able to make graphics opaque in the view, e.g. by using an LCD layer behind it to block light. Existing AR glasses like the HoloLens just project faint, ghostly graphics in the scene, which has nothing like the contrast of traditional displays.

AR glasses could be good for '2D' uses in the sense that they let you conjure up a 100" screen at will, anywhere. Plus 3D content within that 2D portal could be fully stereoscopic 3D.
 

mattspace

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Jun 5, 2013
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For AR glasses to work, they'd need to be able to make graphics opaque in the view, e.g. by using an LCD layer behind it to block light. Existing AR glasses like the HoloLens just project faint, ghostly graphics in the scene, which has nothing like the contrast of traditional displays.

That's why thin AR "glasses" are a largely a ponzi scheme, like Magic Leap. Opaque AR is pretty much limited to video passthrough, in which case AR is a feature, not a product, or a platform.

AR glasses could be good for '2D' uses in the sense that they let you conjure up a 100" screen at will, anywhere. Plus 3D content within that 2D portal could be fully stereoscopic 3D.

The image quality of anything so close to your eyes is almost certainly going to be worse than an actual 100" screen.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
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Agree with the above. In terms of Apple 'cracking' this market though, these could be areas they could make a genuine difference. Perhaps a VR headset with very high resolution screens and high quality external cameras could give a quality AR experience. Though you'd still have weight and comfort issues, and realistically the quality is very unlikely to rival your actual vision.
 
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iPadified

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I guess the thing is though that traditional 2d activities aren't hampered by being on existing screens. They're certainly not hampered in way that the solution is "strap a set of screens to your face".
Have you tried +50 eyes with limited focus abilities?
 

mattspace

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Have you tried +50 eyes with limited focus abilities?

Typically people become more long-sighted as they age, which isn't really going to make screens right in front of people's eyes all that useful.

I think that'll also be interesting for advocates of see-through AR, how to get the image correct for right in front of eyes, that might also need a prescription for distance vision.

Short of direct-retinal projection, I suspect there are a lot of people very hyped about AR, without sufficient understanding of optics, and the physics challenges.
 

iPadified

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Apr 25, 2017
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Typically people become more long-sighted as they age, which isn't really going to make screens right in front of people's eyes all that useful.

I think that'll also be interesting for advocates of see-through AR, how to get the image correct for right in front of eyes, that might also need a prescription for distance vision.

Short of direct-retinal projection, I suspect there are a lot of people very hyped about AR, without sufficient understanding of optics, and the physics challenges.
It is the change in focus distance that is the issue with large screens and multiple screens setups. Even reading glasses (or terminal glasses as they are called in my country) let you only focus on a particular distance, say 50cm. The diameter of large screens makes corners unclear unless you move your head to compensate for the distance.

No one can focus 1-2cm from the cornea so lenses will always be needed irrespective of long- or short-sighted. Just solving that will be a nightmare. Programmable liquid lenses?

edits: clarity. Eat before posting.
 
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AndreeOnline

macrumors 6502a
Aug 15, 2014
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Zürich
Typically people become more long-sighted as they age, which isn't really going to make screens right in front of people's eyes all that useful.
I think screens right in front of the eyes will actually help.

Today, people over 40-ish will start to lose some (or a lot) of fidelity/acuity when looking at their phones and watches. The normal gradual worsening that takes place will often have people who previously didn't use glasses wait longer than they maybe should before getting reading glasses or something proper.

But devices like AR glasses and future slimmer models will—obviously—have diopter correction.

So, you might not be able to see sharp details on your watch when not using glasses, but your AR experience will be "perfect".
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
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Oct 22, 2009
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Welp...I did a thing, guys. I...caved lol. We knew it was coming, I tried to prepare ya'll as best I could to deal with my foreseen betrayal "seeming betrayal"...but it's NOT...it's simply an expansion to my company. Just a way to speed up my Unreal Engine 5 and Octane stuff. I will still do the overwhelming majority of motion graphics on the 7.1 "and 100% of the editing on the M2 Max MacBook Pro", but my VFX animation will be migrated over to the Puget. All that's left now is to name it. She arrives on the 31st when I get back in town "leaving Wednesday to go to Cedar Point for the long weekend"
Michael Simpson Jr Puget 1.png
Michael Simpson Jr Puget 2.png
Michael Simpson Jr Puget 3.png
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
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Welp...I did a thing, guys. I...caved lol. We knew it was coming, I tried to prepare ya'll as best I could to deal with my foreseen betrayal "seeming betrayal"...but it's NOT...it's simply an expansion to my company. Just a way to speed up my Unreal Engine 5 and Octane stuff. I will still do the overwhelming majority of motion graphics on the 7.1 "and 100% of the editing on the M2 Max MacBook Pro", but my VFX animation will be migrated over to the Puget. All that's left now is to name it. She arrives on the 31st when I get back in town "leaving Wednesday to go to Cedar Point for the long weekend" View attachment 2203957 View attachment 2203959 View attachment 2203958
So the stats on it I decided to go with are:

Threadripper 64 core
256 gigs of RAM
2 RTX 4090's
10TB of SSD
18TB of Sata3

And of course I AM STILL GONNA BUY WHATEVER THE FOLLOW UP TO THE 7.1 IS "as long as it's at least 2x more powerful than the 7.1 But let's see how this goes :)
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
Welp...I did a thing, guys. I...caved lol. We knew it was coming, I tried to prepare ya'll as best I could to deal with my foreseen betrayal "seeming betrayal"...but it's NOT...it's simply an expansion to my company. Just a way to speed up my Unreal Engine 5 and Octane stuff. I will still do the overwhelming majority of motion graphics on the 7.1 "and 100% of the editing on the M2 Max MacBook Pro", but my VFX animation will be migrated over to the Puget. All that's left now is to name it. She arrives on the 31st when I get back in town "leaving Wednesday to go to Cedar Point for the long weekend" View attachment 2203957 View attachment 2203959 View attachment 2203958

Name suggestions: Arnold, Judist, Backstabber

:D
 

prefuse07

Suspended
Jan 27, 2020
895
1,073
San Francisco, CA
Welp...I did a thing, guys. I...caved lol. We knew it was coming, I tried to prepare ya'll as best I could to deal with my foreseen betrayal "seeming betrayal"...but it's NOT...it's simply an expansion to my company. Just a way to speed up my Unreal Engine 5 and Octane stuff. I will still do the overwhelming majority of motion graphics on the 7.1 "and 100% of the editing on the M2 Max MacBook Pro", but my VFX animation will be migrated over to the Puget. All that's left now is to name it. She arrives on the 31st when I get back in town "leaving Wednesday to go to Cedar Point for the long weekend" View attachment 2203957 View attachment 2203959 View attachment 2203958

Actually, now I'm wondering if Hackintoshes work on Threadrippers?

LOL you might be able to run Ventura on that beast! (just for ***** and giggles) oh, nvm, the DUAL 4090s! DAMNIT Apple!
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
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Actually, now I'm wondering if Hackintoshes work on Threadrippers?

LOL you might be able to run Ventura on that beast! (just for ***** and giggles) oh, nvm, the 4090! DAMNIT.
Excuse me sir, TWO 4090's lol. You know me...If I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna overdo it lol. No point in burning a dumpster, burn that whole house to the ground LOLOL.
 
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