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mattspace

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There is no real meaning for professional, it is just a society created word. If you think you are professional, you are a professional, don't let others dictate you are or are not.

It does not matter the degree or title, or the equipment, it's what you can do.

I disagree, and I think that's an argument which reflects a broader problem within society of the denial of the value of education and certification, which holds that all opinions are equally valid and entitled, rather than earned.

Try cutting someone open and removing their appendix, and calling oneself a "professional" surgeon, and see how far one gets, even if the patient survives. Try rewiring a house without an electrician's ticket, and see how one ends up. Practice Law without a qualification, see how long one lasts.

It's not what a person can do, it's how they do it.

A professional is someone who is:
  • Educated in their trade - this shows they have taken an active interest in what has been done before them, and therefore have acknowledged their ignorance, and built a knowledge base built upon the work of others.
  • Qualified in their trade - this shows they have the commitment to have their work assessed by other people* against standardised industry measures, by those more knowledgable and experienced than themselves.
A Professional is not someone who gets paid to do a gig, a Professional is someone who pays for public liability insurance when they get a gig.

*The point of this, often overlooked, is that having a formal qualification tells people that you have worked within a process in which you are required to accept criticism of your work, and to fix the mistakes that other people find in it. You can't tell a professor or assessor that you disagree with them, and that your opinion is just as valid as theirs, because by definition, it isn't.
 
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shadow_999

macrumors member
Feb 1, 2020
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I prefered the previous name for this line of product (powermac, powerbook). It showed that this line was providing more power for people who need it.

About the "pro" thing, it could be prosumer as well as professionnal as well as prorata (the price we pay) ...
 

richinaus

macrumors 68020
Oct 26, 2014
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There is no real meaning for professional, it is just a society created word. If you think you are professional, you are a professional, don't let others dictate you are or are not.

It does not matter the degree or title, or the equipment, it's what you can do.
A professional is :

qualified to do the work they are doing either through certification or experience [not 5 minutes but years]
is paid to do the work

You can’t think you are a professional, you have to be proven.

However there are a lot of crap ’professionals‘ out there so really in the end of the day the term has been severely watered down, due to too many people getting these qualifications and also a lot of people not being that good at their chosen ‘profession’.
I am a better photographer than a lot of professional photographers I have worked with [they dont have the eye], but I never call myself a pro photographer as I choose not to do it as a job. Should I call myself professional just because I think I am as good as the professional?
There are a lot of pro photographers that are vastly better than me, but there are also a huge amount worse…. Where does that put me exactly, in your terms?

Any way, back on topic, all I want for my design studio, is a half sized, non upgradeable silent Mac Pro. I couldn’t care less about the upgradability if they are able to price them correctly and have sufficient speed for 3 years.
 

Lammers

macrumors 6502
Oct 30, 2013
449
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People read far too much into the “Pro” label attached to Apple’s products. It’s just a marketing label, meaning “better” or “nicer”, just as the “Air” suffix on MacBooks and iPads is just a marketing label and the “Max” suffix is just a marketing label.

Many businesses that buy Macs for their staff - professional people doing a job they are qualified for, experienced at and paid to do full time - buy more of the non-Pro Macs than anything else (in particular iMacs and MacBook Airs).
 
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mode11

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Will there only be an ARM version for the next Mac Pro?
Presumably. Going by Apple’s track record, they won’t want to put any effort into ’the past‘ - they‘ll concentrate on AS now. They’ll likely keep the 2019 MP around for another year or two, without upgrades, then release a high-powered AS box with 2-4 Max SoCs in it. It will likely have PCIe slots for stuff like audio and video capture cards, but no support for PCIe GPUs in macOS. This would have enough power / API support for most users; anyone else can just use Windows or Linux.

All other iOS and macOS products will be using Apple’s (powerful) iGPUs - they won’t make an exception, with all the hassle and driver support, for one model that sells in minuscule numbers. Especially given the combined performance of multiple Max iGPUs.
 
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Boil

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Oct 23, 2018
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They’ll likely keep the 2019 MP around for another year or two, with no upgrades, then release a high-powered AS box with 2-4 Max SoCs in it. It may have PCIe slots for stuff like audio and video capture cards, but no support for PCIe GPUs in macOS.

Rumors have the 2019 Mac Pro receiving a final update; new mobo, Ice Lake Xeons, faster RAM, AMD W7000-series GPUs; one last hurrah for the Pros that still need high-end Intel CPUs & high-end AMD GPUs...

This release will be concurrent with an ASi-powered Mac Pro; rumors for that have it at half the volume of the 2019 Mac Pro, taking design cues from the 2019 Mac Pro yet being nostalgic for the G4 Cube...

Highly doubtful Apple will NOT put out an ASi-powered Mac Pro of some sort before the end of 2022, they do have a two year transition to Apple silicon to complete...

I think Apple could do another Power Mac G4 Cube / 2013 Trashcan Mac Pro, excepting it would have a single PCIe5 x16 slot for a half-length card that tethers the Mac Pro Cube to an Apple PCIe expansion chassis; optional slots for those who need them, not paying for slots for those who don't...!
 

mode11

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Rumors have the 2019 Mac Pro receiving a final update; new mobo, Ice Lake Xeons, faster RAM, AMD W7000-series GPUs; one last hurrah for the Pros that still need high-end Intel CPUs & high-end AMD GPUs...
Seems like a lot of hassle for a platform they’re phasing out. More trouble than they went to for the 6,1 and the iMac Pro. It’s more their style to just let the MP stagnate, whilst charging full price.

This release will be concurrent with an ASi-powered Mac Pro; rumors for that have it at half the volume of the 2019 Mac Pro, taking design cues from the 2019 Mac Pro yet being nostalgic for the G4 Cube...
Apple spent a couple of years determining what Pro’s want, with their special task group. Does this now go out of the window, and they return to the largely-failed 6,1?

Highly doubtful Apple will NOT put out an ASi-powered Mac Pro of some sort before the end of 2022, they do have a two year transition to Apple silicon to complete...
Depends. Corona etc.

I think Apple could do another Power Mac G4 Cube / 2013 Trashcan Mac Pro, excepting it would have a single PCIe5 x16 slot for a half-length card that tethers the Mac Pro Cube to an Apple PCIe expansion chassis; optional slots for those who need them, not paying for slots for those who don't...!
Doesn‘t sound very Apple-like. TB4 would make more sense, though it would be odd to abandon the tower form-factor again after all the fanfare.
 

Boil

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Oct 23, 2018
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Seems like a lot of hassle for a platform they’re phasing out. More trouble than they went to for the 6,1 and the iMac Pro. It’s more their style to just let the MP stagnate, whilst charging full price.

Nah, one final Intel Mac Pro for those who need them...

Apple spent a couple of years determining what Pro’s want, with their special task group. Does this now go out of the window, and they return to the largely-failed 6,1?

no, that is why I mention an expansion chassis...

Depends. Corona etc.

Two year transition timeline was announced & scheduled in 2020, the height of COVID, so one would think Apple accounted for "all that"...

Doesn‘t sound very Apple-like. TB4 would make more sense, though it would be odd to abandon the tower form-factor again after all the fanfare.

TB4 is no better than TB2, in the grand scheme of things...

A single PCIe5 x16 slot (intended use would be for a PCIe expansion chassis) will have way more available bandwidth than a handful of TB4 ports, and will allow those who need PCIe add-in cards to use them...?
 
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goMac

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Apr 15, 2004
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I haven't seen this LTT video mentioned in this thread, but they spent some time benchmarking M1 Max and found in a lot of more generic workflows (both gaming and creative) it performs a lot like a mobile 3050 or 3060. Basically M1 Max is a ~10 tflop GPU that performs like a ~10 tflop GPU.


It's a nice reality check that M1 Max's GPU is fine. But it's not a miracle chip. It certain workloads that really focused on the media engine or the unified memory it can perform really well. But in the general case even a 4x version is probably going to have trouble catching up to a W7000 series.

Which gives Apple a lot more of a reason to ship out at least one more Mac Pro revision.

FWIW - I'm generally finding the same thing in my time with the M1 Max. The CPU performance is amazing, they'll likely bulldoze Ice Lake Xeon in performance. But as soon as I go to a rendering heavy task, the GPU is pretty average. Definitely not mobile 3080 level performance. I don't think it's likely they'll beat a single W7000 flagship. They'll be lucky if they tie performance.

Because it doesn't seem like they're able to escape the physics of thermals on the GPU, I wonder if the long term replacement for the Intel Mac Pro will be an AS Mac Pro with discrete Apple GPUs. It seems like the MPX form factor probably can't be beat for giving themselves as much headroom to grow as possible. They're definitely still heat constrained. And the GPU market is a lot more competitive so it's harder for them to just catch Nvidia (or even AMD) napping like they did with Intel.

I also worry, specifically for the MacBook Pro, as soon as Nvidia launches the 4000 Mobile GPU series things are going to look even worse for Apple.

Edit: Yeah, W7900 is rumored to be about 75 tflops. And while tflops isn't everything.... really doubtful even with a quad GPU configuration Apple is going to come anywhere close to matching that even in just single GPU configs.
 
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Boil

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But in the general case even a 4x version is probably going to have trouble catching up to a W7000 series.

Which gives Apple a lot more of a reason to ship out at least one more Mac Pro revision.

I don't think it's likely they'll beat a single W7000 flagship. They'll be lucky if they tie performance.

I also worry, specifically for the MacBook Pro, as soon as Nvidia launches the 4000 Mobile GPU series things are going to look even worse for Apple.

Rumor has Apple releasing a final update to the 2019 Mac Pro; new mobo, faster RAM, Ice Lake Xeon CPUs, W7000-series GPUs...

As to Apple versus W7000-series GPUs & Nvidia 4000-series mobile GPUs; it's not like Apple won't release newer (and more powerful) SoCs; and it's not really fair comparing current Apple SoCs to as-yet-released AMD / Nvidia GPUs...?
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
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As to Apple versus W7000-series GPUs & Nvidia 4000-series mobile GPUs; it's not like Apple won't release newer (and more powerful) SoCs; and it's not really fair comparing current Apple SoCs to as-yet-released AMD / Nvidia GPUs...?
There will obviously be an M2 Max. But that's not rumored until 2023. And maybe the mobile 4000 series runs a little late. But Apple is kind of treading water against the mobile 3060 right now. A mobile 4060 might more definitively squash the M1 Max, and that would give Nvidia almost a year of having a clear performance advantage. That's not really where as a consumer you want the MBP to be.

An AS Mac Pro is going to be an even worse victim of this timing. They might have been able to hold out against a single Radeon 6900 or a 3080 with the rumored quad Max architecture. But if they launch mid next year they'll now be going up against a 7900 or 4080, and they won't be able to beat those GPUs.

Again, like you said, a strong reason to continue the Intel Mac Pro for at least another cycle. CPU bound workflows will be a natural fit for the AS Mac Pro with it's strong CPU performance. GPU bound workflows will fit well with the Intel one.

But long term, what does Apple do? Can they catch up with Nvidia and AMD with just an SOC offering? So far the answer is no, but they haven't been at it very long so it's hard to tell. It certainly doesn't seem like they're going to beat AMD and Nvidia for the next few years.
 
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mode11

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Nah, one final Intel Mac Pro for those who need them...
I guess we'll find out, but the 2019 MP is probably already that machine. The only reason to buy an Intel Mac tower at this point is if you absolutely can't wait for the AS MP and need the machine today. Such people have no option but to buy a 2019 anyway, so why update it? We've seen this mentality repeatedly with Apple.

Also, I'm not sure exactly how much faster Ice Lake is than Cascade Lake (for CPU models that would be used in a Mac Pro), but an e.g. 15% improvement in performance won't exactly future proof the new machine. It would still be smoked by an AS MP / iMac (at least in terms of CPU / mid-range GPU).

no, that is why I mention an expansion chassis...
That is a possibility. I can't see any cable being able to transfer PCIe 5.0 x16 from an expansion card though. A better solution may be to plug the expansion chassis directly into the bottom of the main chassis. That way, it could use an edge connector mounted on the logic board, keeping signal lengths to an absolute minimum.

Two year transition timeline was announced & scheduled in 2020, the height of COVID, so one would think Apple accounted for "all that"...
The transition had likely been in planning for years. Covid emerged as a significant issue in mid-March 2020; AS was announced just 3 months later in mid-June. It would have been difficult to predict how and for how long supply chains would be affected.

Even if you take Apple at face value, that means the transition would be 'complete' (i.e. all models would be AS) by mid-2022. You reckon Apple will squeeze out a revised Intel MP in e.g. March, then almost immediately obsolete it in June? It's not just that AS machines are faster, it's that their architecture is the future for Apple. Intel will still be supported, but the exciting new features will increasingly only be found on AS.

An AS Mac Pro + expansion chassis that accepted MPX GPUs would obliterate existing machines. OTOH, If AS is iGPU-only and can't fully compete with current heavyweight PCIe GPUs, it's hard to see how that will change going forward. I imagine Apple will continue to leave such parts of the market (e.g. Virtual Production work in Unreal) to Windows.

TB4 is no better than TB2, in the grand scheme of things...

A single PCIe5 x16 slot (intended use would be for a PCIe expansion chassis) will have way more available bandwidth than a handful of TB4 ports, and will allow those who need PCIe add-in cards to use them...?
PCIe 5.0 hasn't been released. If you're talking about future standards, why not compare it to TB5? Further, it will only become available on Intel with Sapphire Rapids - the Ice Lake CPUs in the rumours use PCIe 4.0.
 

mode11

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Because it doesn't seem like they're able to escape the physics of thermals on the GPU, I wonder if the long term replacement for the Intel Mac Pro will be an AS Mac Pro with discrete Apple GPUs.
This sounds like a terrible idea (no offence - I realise there's limited options here). Using the PCIe bus, they'll have no inherent advantage (unified memory etc.) over other GPUs. And as far as I'm aware, Apple's GPUs are nothing revolutionary in themselves.

An Apple PCIe GPU would also only be used in one computer that sells in tiny numbers. How are they supposed to counter the colossal investment Nvidia and AMD put into their designs, year on year? I guess in a captive market they won't need to be better than the competition, just 'good enough', but it seems like a long-term hassle for Apple when they could just use an off-the-shelf AMD GPU for this one model.
 

iDron

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Apr 6, 2010
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FWIW - I'm generally finding the same thing in my time with the M1 Max. The CPU performance is amazing, they'll likely bulldoze Ice Lake Xeon in performance. But as soon as I go to a rendering heavy task, the GPU is pretty average. Definitely not mobile 3080 level performance. I don't think it's likely they'll beat a single W7000 flagship. They'll be lucky if they tie performance.

Because it doesn't seem like they're able to escape the physics of thermals on the GPU, I wonder if the long term replacement for the Intel Mac Pro will be an AS Mac Pro with discrete Apple GPUs. It seems like the MPX form factor probably can't be beat for giving themselves as much headroom to grow as possible. They're definitely still heat constrained. And the GPU market is a lot more competitive so it's harder for them to just catch Nvidia (or even AMD) napping like they did with Intel.

I also worry, specifically for the MacBook Pro, as soon as Nvidia launches the 4000 Mobile GPU series things are going to look even worse for Apple.

Edit: Yeah, W7900 is rumored to be about 75 tflops. And while tflops isn't everything.... really doubtful even with a quad GPU configuration Apple is going to come anywhere close to matching that even in just single GPU configs.
Yeah, this is definitely true. Looking on the CPU side, the M1 Pro/Max with 10 cores is faster than almost any other laptop CPU. In the Mac hemisphere, it also as faster than all Intel Deskop CPUs except those 16-core and higher Mac Pros.

However, on the GPU side, the best GPU in the 2019 16"MBP in the end was a roughly 5TFLOPS Radeon. The M1 Max surely has double that, but this is what you would expect from Moore's law, nothing magic about it. The iMac 27 has a 7.6 TFLOPS GPU, so just putting an M1Max in a new iMac27 is not gonna make it a lot faster. They need 2 SoCs to be a significant improvement.

On the Mac Pro side, the fastest CPUs are about 2x the M1 Max, and the highest Duo Radeon is at 45TFLOPS I think. So the rumored 4x M1 Max will not beat the current top-of-the-line GPU performance. My feeling from these numbers is: Apple probably has mastered CPUs very well, and they can probably scale it up quite easily. However, in terms of CPU to GPU power, the GPUs should be about 2x as fast to be a match for the high end competition. This is true for Desktops with the Mac Pro, but for example also for notebooks, with Nvidia offering 20-30TFLOPS in their best laptop models, so while being a decent GPU, the M1 Max does not look that impressive.

In the end, the impressive feat was to put all this power in a 14" laptop with an extremely long battery life.
 

Boil

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I guess we'll find out, but the 2019 MP is probably already that machine. The only reason to buy an Intel Mac tower at this point is if you absolutely can't wait for the AS MP and need the machine today. Such people have no option but to buy a 2019 anyway, so why update it? We've seen this mentality repeatedly with Apple.

Also, I'm not sure exactly how much faster Ice Lake is than Cascade Lake (for CPU models that would be used in a Mac Pro), but an e.g. 15% improvement in performance won't exactly future proof the new machine. It would still be smoked by an AS MP / iMac (at least in terms of CPU / mid-range GPU).

A final hurrah for an Intel Mac Pro, for those who absolutely need an Intel-based Mac Pro...!

That is a possibility. I can't see any cable being able to transfer PCIe 5.0 x16 from an expansion card though. A better solution may be to plug the expansion chassis directly into the bottom of the main chassis. That way, it could use an edge connector mounted on the logic board, keeping signal lengths to an absolute minimum.

Good point on an edge connector...!

You reckon Apple will squeeze out a revised Intel MP in e.g. March, then almost immediately obsolete it in June? It's not just that AS machines are faster, it's that their architecture is the future for Apple. Intel will still be supported, but the exciting new features will increasingly only be found on AS.

Again, the revised Intel Mac Pro is an offering for those who absolutely need an Intel-based Mac Pro; and Apple will hope those users eventually buy an ASi Mac Pro...?

An AS Mac Pro + expansion chassis that accepted MPX GPUs would obliterate existing machines. OTOH, If AS is iGPU-only and can't fully compete with current heavyweight PCIe GPUs, it's hard to see how that will change going forward. I imagine Apple will continue to leave such parts of the market (e.g. Virtual Production work in Unreal) to Windows.

PCIe 5.0 hasn't been released. If you're talking about future standards, why not compare it to TB5? Further, it will only become available on Intel with Sapphire Rapids - the Ice Lake CPUs in the rumours use PCIe 4.0.

The PCIe5 x16 expansion slot (edge connector) would be for the ASi Mac Pro (Cube), not the "Last Hurrah" Mac Pro (tower)...
 

mode11

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Again, the revised Intel Mac Pro is an offering for those who absolutely need an Intel-based Mac Pro; and Apple will hope those users eventually buy an ASi Mac Pro...?

Seems like a pretty niche use case. Can't they just buy an upper-end 2019 MP and be done with it?

The PCIe5 x16 expansion slot (edge connector) would be for the ASi Mac Pro (Cube), not the "Last Hurrah" Mac Pro (tower)...

Yes, good point. Got mixed up there. A 2/4 Max Cube would be pretty enticing, if ruinously expensive. They've tried this kind of thing a few times though, and it never really works out. A single form factor - a tower with slots - would be more sensible of them, if less sexy.
 
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4wdwrx

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Jul 30, 2012
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There are, in fact, definitions for the word "professional". Some involved just being paid for something. Others involve working in a specific profession with educational and certification requirements.
I agree. That was the point I was referring to. You said "There are, in fact, definitions for the word "professional""

Who made the definition?
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
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I think for the point of the Pro discussion, it's about how much the workstation is able to improve the productivity of the user vs using a typical computer. A 'professional' is typically highly skilled and well compensated for that skill. Therefore, if they are regularly sitting around waiting for a computer to render, compile or even just resize images, there is an opportunity cost in terms of availability for additional work.

Quality demands increase over time, however, so the workstation needs some headroom and / or expandability to avoid becoming a bottleneck. It's not just about processing power either - ergonomics are also important. Trying to edit video on a 13" laptop via a trackpad would put a dent in most people's productivity. Interoperability with industry-standard pipelines is also a must too.

Over time more and more types of tasks can be processed so fast by a typical machine that an 'Air' laptop or iPad is sufficient. A professional writer could probably get by with an iBook G3 (if only writing). That writer is of course still a professional by all other definitions of their job - it's just they don't require a big box under their desk with a 1000W PSU in it. Apple are likely champing at the bit for the day a 27" iMac can replace the Mac Pro for virtually everyone, and they can discontinue it forever.

Productivity-focussed machines typically put functionality first and other considerations second. The 'big truck' that Steve referred to.

'Functionality' might be considered as:
  • Sustained high performance
  • Effective and quiet cooling
  • Reliability
  • Quantity and variety of ports / interfaces
  • Adaptability
  • Ergonomics (e.g. multiple large screens, full-size keyboard and mouse etc.)

'Nice to haves':
  • Slim / sleek form-factor
  • Low weight
  • Visual simplicity
  • Compact
  • Low cost
 
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Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
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Seems like a pretty niche use case. Can't they just buy an upper-end 2019 MP and be done with it?

If I had to buy one last Intel Mac Pro, I would rather one with fresh components (Ice Lake Xeon CPUs / W7000-series GPUs) than one with three year old components...

Yes, good point. Got mixed up there. A 2/4 Max Cube would be pretty enticing, if ruinously expensive. They've tried this kind of thing a few times though, and it never really works out. A single form factor - a tower with slots - would be more sensible of them, if less sexy.

And would force every Mac Pro user who don't need PCIe slots to pay for them anyway...
 

mattspace

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Jun 5, 2013
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And would force every Mac Pro user who don't need PCIe slots to pay for them anyway...

The Cube had no meaningful discount over the G4 tower, for giving up expansion slots. The 2013 raised entry prices when giving up expansions slots.

What from Apple's past behaviour makes you think a slotless AS Mac Pro will be cheaper than the Intel slotbox?
 

mode11

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If I had to buy one last Intel Mac Pro, I would rather one with fresh components (Ice Lake Xeon CPUs / W7000-series GPUs) than one with three year old components...



And would force every Mac Pro user who don't need PCIe slots to pay for them anyway...
Sure; I was just trying to predict Apple's likely moves, not what would be in their customers' best interests.
 

iDron

macrumors regular
Apr 6, 2010
219
252
Do you guys think the iMac 27 and Mac Pro will be based on an M1 architecture or an M2 architecture?
 
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