MP 7,1 Mac Pro Apple Silicon is going to eat our lunch

[MisterAndrew]

The top Geekbench 5 Metal benchmarks for the M1 Max so far are roughly equivalent to an RX 5700 XT or W5700X. It still can't touch the Vega II or 6800/6900 series, but the chip for the new Mac Pro probably will. So a Mac with an M1 Max is better than a 5,1 and 6,1 Mac Pro in every way, and also lower specs of the 7,1.

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/search?utf8=✓&q=Apple+M1+Max

 

[MisterAndrew]

It looks like the performance of the M1 Max really depends on the app. I was looking at gaming benchmarks and it does poorly compared to the best AMD and Nvidia GPUs, but it appears to excel with productivity apps, which of course are what most people are going to be using on the Mac. In Affinity Photo the M1 Max outperforms the W6900X.

Apple M1 Max GPU surpasses Mac Pro's $6,000 AMD graphics card​

 

[fenderbass146]

If the new NotchBookPro could run my X86 Virtual machine it would have been the perfect laptop. I know I can run ARM virtual Windows, but I can't convert X86 Virtual machine to an ARM without losing all the licenses inside (around 15K).

That and there is no gurantee ARM based Windows sticks around. Right now it's a hack. The ARM Windows would actually be enough for me as it emulates x86 but until it becomes more official, I can't trust it on my production work computer. (I'm in IT, occasionally need Windows)

 

[kvic]

Personally I think it's very unlikely Smaller Mac Pro will return as Cube.

Latest Anandtech finding provides some supporting evidence. The "peak" package power consumption of M1 Max is about 100W. Here I believe it's under-estimated as their benchmark software has difficulty in pushing the GPU to its maximum. Let's assume the Jade-4C SoC will be four M1 Max stitched together. That's a whopping 400W "peak" package power at least. No fool is going to house it inside a Cube-like design.

It's far more likely a smaller version of 2019 Mac Pro, about the size of a compact mATX box. If the SoC comes in daughter boards, I think it'll be a newly designed connector for better power delivery and higher data bandwidth to/from the rest of the system. So maybe similar to MPX but not exactly MPX. Also imagine the possibility in a distant future Apple puts two such SoCs on a single MPX-like module.

I believe Smaller Mac Pro is going to be the ultimate version in the near future along side 2019 Mac Pro and its renewal. Sounds like x86-64 support will stay for a little while longer. That's not bad.

 

[goMac]

No fool is going to house it inside a Cube-like design.

You're right, they'd probably house a roughly 400 watt package in a cylindrical, black case with a single cooler and fan.

More seriously: It probably would fit just fine in a Cube. MPX modules, especially the duos, have a similar TDP. You'd just have to make the rest of the Cube-thing a giant cooler, like MPX. Which is what the rumors are.

Take a G4 Cube. Put in the mainboard. Remove everything else and replace with a giant heat sink. Probably a very rough idea of what we're looking at.

 

[Boil]

Personally I think it's very unlikely Smaller Mac Pro will return as Cube.

Latest Anandtech finding provides some supporting evidence. The "peak" package power consumption of M1 Max is about 100W. Here I believe it's under-estimated as their benchmark software has difficulty in pushing the GPU to its maximum. Let's assume the Jade-4C SoC will be four M1 Max stitched together. That's a whopping 400W "peak" package power at least. No fool is going to house it inside a Cube-like design.

It's far more likely a smaller version of 2019 Mac Pro, about the size of a compact mATX box. If the SoC comes in daughter boards, I think it'll be a newly designed connector for better power delivery and higher data bandwidth to/from the rest of the system. So maybe similar to MPX but not exactly MPX. Also imagine the possibility in a distant future Apple puts two such SoCs on a single MPX-like module.

I believe Smaller Mac Pro is going to be the ultimate version in the near future along side 2019 Mac Pro and its renewal. Sounds like x86-64 support will stay for a little while longer. That's not bad.

You're right, they'd probably house a roughly 400 watt package in a cylindrical, black case with a single cooler and fan.

More seriously: It probably would fit just fine in a Cube. MPX modules, especially the duos, have a similar TDP. You'd just have to make the rest of the Cube-thing a giant cooler, like MPX. Which is what the rumors are.

Take a G4 Cube. Put in the mainboard. Remove everything else and replace with a giant heat sink. Probably a very rough idea of what we're looking at.

Mac Pro Cube

• 7.7" x 7.7" x 9.8" including feet
• same dims as G4 Cube (the reason the Mac mini has had the same footprint since forever)
• Mac mini style PSU up one side of the chassis, just taller & more juice, 420W
• PSU is sitting behind the vertically mounted motherboard, all ports on rear panel
• 2019 Mac Pro style venting top & bottom
• 180mm fans top & bottom (bottom intake, top exhaust)
• 2019 Mac Pro style heat sink (with a vapor chamber?) on SoC, filling remaining inside volume
• Illuminated Apple logo on front panel
• Available in any color you want, as long as it's Space Black

 

[mattspace]

Let's bear in mind that Intel isn't going to just lie down and give up, and neither are Nvidia or AMD.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/cpu-benchmarks-pre-release-intel-alder-lake-chip-beats-apples-m1-max/

 

[vel0city]

Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip

The home of Code & Visuals

blog.yiningkarlli.com

From an artist at Disney Animation Studios, testing with his own "hobby" CPU renderer.

"The real surprises to me came with the 2019 Mac Pro and the Threadripper 3990X workstation. In both of those cases, I expected the M1 Max to lose, but the 2021 14-inch MacBook Pro came surprisingly close to the 2019 Mac Pro’s performance in terms of wall time. Even more importantly as a predictor of future scalability, the M1 Max’s efficiency as measured by core-seconds comes in at far far superior to both the Intel Xeon W-3245 and the AMD Threadripper 3900X"

"in a nutshell: I expected incredible performance, but was surprised to find even my high expectations met and surpassed."

"The wider takeaway here though is that in order to give the M1 Max some real competition, one has to skip laptop chips entirely and reach for not just high end desktop chips, but for server-class workstation hardware to really beat the M1 Max. For workloads that push the CPU to maximum utilization for sustained periods of time, such as production-quality path traced rendering, the M1 Max represents a fundamental shift in what is possible in a laptop form factor. Something even more exciting to think about is how the M1 Max really is the middle tier Apple Silicon solution; presumably the large iMac and Mac Pro will push things into even more absurd territory."

 

[sirio76]

The top Geekbench 5 Metal benchmarks for the M1 Max so far are roughly equivalent to an RX 5700 XT or W5700X. It still can't touch the Vega II or 6800/6900 series, but the chip for the new Mac Pro probably will. So a Mac with an M1 Max is better than a 5,1 and 6,1 Mac Pro in every way, and also lower specs of the 7,1.

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/search?utf8=✓&q=Apple+M1+Max

According to the Anandtech review you should forget about Geekbench Metal score, the test is so fast that GPU wont be utilized at full potential.

 

[sillycyber]

Mark Gurman tweeted that the Mac Pro will have "up to 40 CPU cores and 128 GPU cores."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450233957350576129

So when are we probably going to be seeing the M1 (or M2) MacPros and Minis? I'm sure 40 CPU and 128 GPU core one would be out of my price range, but 16-24 CPU cores and 32-64 GPU cores might be doable. I'm looking for excuses not to buy the M1 Max MBP right now.

 

[MisterAndrew]

So when are we probably going to be seeing the M1 (or M2) MacPros and Minis? I'm sure 40 CPU and 128 GPU core one would be out of my price range, but 16-24 CPU cores and 32-64 GPU cores might be doable. I'm looking for excuses not to buy the M1 Max MBP right now.

Same. Considering to get one to replace my 6,1, but I'd really like a desktop because my old MBP still works for what I need it to, so I think I'll wait for the mini, or the new Mac Pro depending on the price.

 

[rondocap]

I'm running tests right now on a maxed out M1 Max with 32 core GPU and 64GB of ram, highest power mode vs a 2019 Mac Pro, 28 core and W6800x Duo

So far, the Mac Pro is on average 2 and a half times faster at Exporting Red raw in 8k and 6k, and 2 and a half times faster at more advanced color grading like stabilization, and denoise.

2 and a half times is still a huge number, that's a 10 min vs 25 min export time. Still, impressive for a laptop and of course it will do better with h264 an h265, since it has those modern encoders.

but for ultimate performance at higher cost, Mac Pro is still the way to go until the new AS Mac Pro, which I can see being a beast since the MacBook Pro is getting up there in performance too.

 

[mikas]

Could you please verify the 68k Metal Score that's been floating around, that it is the 32 core GPU, not the 24 core GPU result. I have seen a lot of different GB5 GPU results, and they differ a lot from each other.

And please a luxMark LuxBall test too if you can do please? I am really interested, even if it would not reflect any real world usage to most of us.

Just to compare it to my 6800XT/Radeon VII eGPU with 6,1.

Me too am quite interested about a MBP M1 Max/64GB/32c GPU. Now I'm still travelling with my 15" MBP 2015 i7.

edit. You don't happen to have TwinMotion to test?

 

[rondocap]

Could you please verify the 68k Metal Score that's been floating around, that it is the 32 core GPU, not the 24 core GPU result. I have seen a lot of different GB5 GPU results, and they differ a lot from each other.

And please a luxMark LuxBall test too if you can do please? I am really interested, even if it would not reflect any real world usage to most of us.

Just to compare it to my 6800XT/Radeon VII eGPU with 6,1.

Me too am quite interested about a MBP M1 Max/64GB/32c GPU. Now I'm still travelling with my 15" MBP 2015 i7.

edit. You don't happen to have TwinMotion to test?

yep that seems about right, I got around there as well with the 32 core. The 24 core gets lower from some other tests I've seen

 

[rondocap]

Here is my score

 

[mikas]

That's kind of a really good score from a laptop with an integrated GPU. Not yet there at desktop scores, but I really like to see that score in a laptop with that low power usage and temps.

Thanks.

 

[Pressure]

I'm running tests right now on a maxed out M1 Max with 32 core GPU and 64GB of ram, highest power mode vs a 2019 Mac Pro, 28 core and W6800x Duo

So far, the Mac Pro is on average 2 and a half times faster at Exporting Red raw in 8k and 6k, and 2 and a half times faster at more advanced color grading like stabilization, and denoise.

2 and a half times is still a huge number, that's a 10 min vs 25 min export time. Still, impressive for a laptop and of course it will do better with h264 an h265, since it has those modern encoders.

but for ultimate performance at higher cost, Mac Pro is still the way to go until the new AS Mac Pro, which I can see being a beast since the MacBook Pro is getting up there in performance too.

If you have any ProRes footage around try with that.

What software are you using?

 

[PowerMike G5]

Here is my score

That's kind of a really good score from a laptop with an integrated GPU. Not yet there at desktop scores, but I really like to see that score in a laptop with that low power usage and temps.

Thanks.

Yes, this felt like around the score of my old Radeon VII in my old 5,1 tower. Given this is an iGPU with a far lower power draw, this is pretty amazing.

This combined with the dedicated video encoders/dceoders should make this laptop a joy for video work. I'm excited for it.

 

[Boil]

This is a M1 Max SoC on the 16" 2021 MacBook Pro motherboard.

So looking at this, we can see what might be needed, size-wise, for Mac mini / iMac (Pro) / Mac Pro Cube / Mac Pro units?

Motherboards for the various chassis options will be different?

I kinda feel the rumored 27" iMac Pro will only be a "Pro" model because it will have a choice of the M1 Pro or M1 Max SoC; and named such ("Pro") to match up with the new 14" & 16" MacBook Pro laptops. The same with the M1 Pro / M1 Max powered Mac mini, here forth know as the Mac mini Pro! ;^p

But the Jade 2C / Jade 4C units, those will be the Mac Pro Cube & the Mac Pro. Low volume (sales-wise) SKUs for the low-volume dual & quad SoC SiPs.

Looking at the mobo from the 16" MacBook Pro above, I would say the most a Mac Pro Cube could hold would be two M1 Max SoCs, here forth know as the M1 Max Duo! See post #131 above for more on a proposed Mac Pro Cube chassis & cooling!

As for the larger, towering (see what I did there?) Mac Pro, an easy fit for a M1 Max Quadro loadout!

This leaves the mobo for the Mac mini, looks like a single M1 Max SoC mobo should fit just fine; just hope Apple doesn't make the Mac mini thinner "just because". FYI - I believe the Mac mini sticks with the 7.7" x 7.7" footprint because it is a tribute to the G4 Cube (7.7" x 7.7" x 9.8") and therefor an ongoing tribute to Steve Jobs! ;^p

If anything, Apple can make a M2-powered Mac mini the new thinner (shorter?) rumored model, but make the Mac mini Pro a bit taller (this might be the 3x taller rumor?) to allow for more cooling capacity, with 2019 Mac Pro vent holes integrated somewhere (?), available in Space Black!

TL;DR:

Mac mini Pro - M1 Max SoC - new taller chassis / available in Space Gray
iMac Pro - M1 Max SoC - new chassis like the 24" iMac / available in Space Gray
Mac Pro Cube - M1 Max Duo SiP - new "retro" Cube chassis / available in Space Gray
Mac Pro (tower) - M1 Max Quadro SiP - available in Space Gray

And a return of Space Gray keyboard, mouse, & trackpad options.

EDIT TO ADD:

If Apple were to offer a larger screen iMac (30" or 32"), this could be the real iMac Pro, with the 27" model being just a 27" iMac (assorted colors like the 24" iMac) and the 30"+ iMac Pro (Space Gray) could have the M1 Max Duo SiP?

 

[rondocap]

Here are some more numbers, and I plan to test with quad w6800x duos too, but even with just 1 duo on average the Mac Pro is between 1.5 to 2 times faster, sometimes more like 2.5 times depending on the task

R3d raw is still very gpu intensive, so that’s why. Other codecs like from Sony or canon will have a different result as the m1 likes those more

R3d raw 8k to 8k pro res 422 HQ:
Mac Pro (28 core, w6800x Duo) 3 min 57 seconds
MacBook m1 max (32 core gpu, 64gb ram) 8 min 25 sec

(H264 export from 8k to 4K is similar to the pro res numbers)

8k stabilize 1 minute clip:
Mac Pro 1 min 32 sec
M1 max: 3 min 33 sec

Red Komodo 6k export to 422 pro res HQ:

Mac Pro: 2 min 14 sec
M1 max: 3 min 28 sec

Red 4K 120p helium 5 min clip to h264:
Mac Pro: 1 min 42 sec
M1 max: 4 min 7 sec

 

[tsialex]

Let's bear in mind that Intel isn't going to just lie down and give up, and neither are Nvidia or AMD.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/cpu-benchmarks-pre-release-intel-alder-lake-chip-beats-apples-m1-max/

After 10+ years of slow pace with minor improvements year-over-year, I would be nice to see some shakeup.

I don't have my hopes up, that leaked Alder Lake benchmark was a classic Intel FUD.

 

[rondocap]

If you have any ProRes footage around try with that.

What software are you using?

With pro res 4K and 6k, the m1 max is incredible, as good or better than a 28 core Mac Pro with afterburner - those new encoders really work well. Without afterburner, it will beat a 28 core Mac Pro from my testing so far easily.

r3d raw however, the Mac Pro with w6800 duo still has a sizable lead since it’s more gpu focused

 

[Pressure]

With pro res 4K and 6k, the m1 max is incredible, as good or better than a 28 core Mac Pro with afterburner - those new encoders really work well. Without afterburner, it will beat a 28 core Mac Pro from my testing so far easily.

r3d raw however, the Mac Pro with w6800 duo still has a sizable lead since it’s more gpu focused

Yeah, redcode raw codec is heavy.

Unfortunately not a lot of things record internally in ProRes and ProRes Raw but the new DJI Ronin 4D does and sample footage can be downloaded here.

The performance is quite impressive for the form factor though.

What NLE are you using for those numbers?

 

[rondocap]

Yeah, redcode raw codec is heavy.

Unfortunately not a lot of things record internally in ProRes and ProRes Raw but the new DJI Ronin 4D does and sample footage can be downloaded here.

The performance is quite impressive for the form factor though.

What NLE are you using for those numbers?

So far Final Cut Pro for pro res raw and r3d, and Resolve for r3d raw

 

[AndreeOnline]

So far Final Cut Pro for pro res raw and r3d, and Resolve for r3d raw

Hey, rondocap....

if you're in benchmark mode and don't mind: could you post some numbers from the RocketScience test in DaVinci?

Thanks!