MP 7,1 Mac Pro Apple Silicon is going to eat our lunch

[Abazigal]

And yet, the 2013 Mac Pro, which was built for exactly the business case you're describing, and advocated for the exact same reason you're advocating, was an abject failure that took a permanent hit on Apple's position in the Pro content creation industries, so much so that they had to completely reverse course on it and build a super-slotbox.

See, the thing is the people you're describing are a subset of pro users, but conflating them with the majority is a mistake.

There is no market for a computer that costs as much as a fully-reconfigurable, upgradable slotbox, but which has no reconfigurability or upgradability, no matter how much Apple would like to gaslight us into believing the "advantages" they offer are worth the majority of its working life being slower than the comparable slotbox that has received continuous upgrades.

Counterpoint - is anyone actually upgrading any of the components inside the 2019 Mac Pro, beyond installing extra ram?

The 2013 Trash Can Mac Pro failed not simply because it couldn't be readily upgraded, but because Apple gambled wrongly on a dual-GPU setup (partly to accommodate the inadequate cooling of the smaller form factor) while the industry would go on to consolidate around a single, more powerful GPU.

Second, how is upgrading the M1 chip even supposed to work? The whole idea is that it is as efficient as it is precisely because all the parts are integrated together (as opposed to slotting individual computer parts into a case). Are we going to see expandable ram / SSD / modules for a hypothetical M1 Mac Pro in the future?

I agree that an expandable M1 Mac Pro more powerful than the most powerful iMac would be nice, to handle that 1% of edge cases, and I hope it happens as well. I just wonder how Apple would implement it.

 

[ct2k7]

I upgraded the GPU from the base to something that costs £1k

 

[cutterman]

Counterpoint - is anyone actually upgrading any of the components inside the 2019 Mac Pro, beyond installing extra ram?

What about storage? Even with the Mac Pro 2019 they left it to users to purchase a caddy that fits in a tiny space with inadequate power supply for the likes of SAS SSD's, and then you had to buy a RAID card since there are only 2 SATA connectors and one USB internally. Without the RAID card option you have to rely on expensive Thunderbolt enclosures connected to your Mac using a small cheap connector prone to failure or breakage with repeated use.

 

[jasonmvp]

Counterpoint - is anyone actually upgrading any of the components inside the 2019 Mac Pro, beyond installing extra ram?

I replaced the OEM VegaII MPX module with the W6800 Duo MPX module. Besides upgrading components, the PCI-E slots have allowed me the flexibility of adding:

• 2 HighPoint 4 x NVMe cards
• 1 512MB M.2 (non-NVMe) drive for scratch space
• 1 4-port 4K/60 BlackMagic HDMI capture card

Along with that, the internal space and connectors on the motherboard allowed me to add two more 2.5" Samsung SSD.

I don't want to see the flexibility of all of this removed in the next Pro. If it is, I pull the ejector handle and punch out (again). Like I did when the 2013 Trashcan was released.

 

[Abazigal]

I replaced the OEM VegaII MPX module with the W6800 Duo MPX module. Besides upgrading components, the PCI-E slots have allowed me the flexibility of adding:

• 2 HighPoint 4 x NVMe cards
• 1 512MB M.2 (non-NVMe) drive for scratch space
• 1 4-port 4K/60 BlackMagic HDMI capture card

Along with that, the internal space and connectors on the motherboard allowed me to add two more 2.5" Samsung SSD.

I don't want to see the flexibility of all of this removed in the next Pro. If it is, I pull the ejector handle and punch out (again). Like I did when the 2013 Trashcan was released.

Thanks for the response. I haven’t been seeing any videos of upgraded Mac Pros online, so I am wondering if the target audience for this aren’t YouTubers.

 

[StuAff]

Thanks for the response. I haven’t been seeing any videos of upgraded Mac Pros online, so I am wondering if the target audience for this aren’t YouTubers.

They're out there- Linus did one for a start, as did SnazzyLabs.

 

[mattspace]

Counterpoint - is anyone actually upgrading any of the components inside the 2019 Mac Pro, beyond installing extra ram?

Of the small number of people here who have posted about their 2019 machines, a significant percentage seem to have put new GPUs into them - Apple wouldn't be offering MPX modules if there wasn't a demand for them.

The 2013 Trash Can Mac Pro failed not simply because it couldn't be readily upgraded, but because Apple gambled wrongly on a dual-GPU setup (partly to accommodate the inadequate cooling of the smaller form factor) while the industry would go on to consolidate around a single, more powerful GPU.

Except that the industry for workstations didn't go to single soldered GPU, it went to single big, & multiple big upgradable GPUs. 2013 proponents kept saying "all workstations will be like this" and it never happened.

Second, how is upgrading the M1 chip even supposed to work? The whole idea is that it is as efficient as it is precisely because all the parts are integrated together (as opposed to slotting individual computer parts into a case). Are we going to see expandable ram / SSD / modules for a hypothetical M1 Mac Pro in the future?

The whole marketing angle is that, but in reality no efficiency gain, no fractional improvement in directness of connection has ever been more than an rounding error of advantage on the work day, especially when you consider how much more performance you get for the dollar outside of Apple's machines.

The same will be true with Apple Silicon - over the lifetime of the machine, all that efficiency bonus will be forgotten the moment the 50% year-over-year growth in GPU capability means throwing away the entire cost of the computer, just to get the GPU upgrade. And, before mentioning the secondhand market as a way to amortise the cost of the upgrade, the secondhand Mac market is largely underpinned by the upgradability of the machines - buy an older machine, and get 80-90% of top-of-the-range performance, for 30% of the price.

 

[ct2k7]

Thanks for the response. I haven’t been seeing any videos of upgraded Mac Pros online, so I am wondering if the target audience for this aren’t YouTubers.

The majority of us with a MacPro aren't YouTubers, I might guess

 

[jasonmvp]

Thanks for the response. I haven’t been seeing any videos of upgraded Mac Pros online, so I am wondering if the target audience for this aren’t YouTubers.

Correct. The majority of us are either professionals getting real work done with our Macs, or well-funded enthusiasts doing some fun stuff and some work with them. The YouTubers I suspect you're referring to are the "influencers" who neither have the technical skill (that includes iJusting, MKBHD, et al), time, or really the interest in pulling their Macs apart and upgrading or adding parts. They'd just rather buy the device fully kitted out and address Apple-provided talking points in their videos. So the videos you see from the are just that: the Mac in its OEM form, ready to go.

Also in your previous post you attempted to downplay the importance of being able to swap and/or upgrade RAM. That's actually a big deal, and a significant money saver, too. I didn't buy my Mac with 96G. I bought it with the base line amount of RAM (32G) and added third-party 64GB afterward. I saved a pile of money doing that.

All in all, I really suspect the non-modular approach with AS, at least in the present form we see, is going to be the downfall of the Mac Pro (again). Sure it'll be powerful and be able to roar through transcoding and other workloads. But it'll be a fixed block of compute that isn't upgradable or modular, and that's what we're worried about.

 

[PowerMike G5]

Thanks for the response. I haven’t been seeing any videos of upgraded Mac Pros online, so I am wondering if the target audience for this aren’t YouTubers.

Correct. The majority of us are either professionals getting real work done with our Macs, or well-funded enthusiasts doing some fun stuff and some work with them. The YouTubers I suspect you're referring to are the "influencers" who neither have the technical skill (that includes iJusting, MKBHD, et al), time, or really the interest in pulling their Macs apart and upgrading or adding parts. They'd just rather buy the device fully kitted out and address Apple-provided talking points in their videos. So the videos you see from the are just that: the Mac in its OEM form, ready to go.

Also in your previous post you attempted to downplay the importance of being able to swap and/or upgrade RAM. That's actually a big deal, and a significant money saver, too. I didn't buy my Mac with 96G. I bought it with the base line amount of RAM (32G) and added third-party 64GB afterward. I saved a pile of money doing that.

All in all, I really suspect the non-modular approach with AS, at least in the present form we see, is going to be the downfall of the Mac Pro (again). Sure it'll be powerful and be able to roar through transcoding and other workloads. But it'll be a fixed block of compute that isn't upgradable or modular, and that's what we're worried about.

Yeah if people don't see the real value on the MP 7,1, it's not really aimed at them. I have a 16" M1 Max MBP coming and although I'm excited for it, I don't see it as a replacement for my current 7,1 Mac Pro at all. Simply because all the expandability via PCIe, RAM slots, internal HDD options, etc. make it such a more versatile machine (in addition to its raw computing power) for pro workloads. Similarly, I have it upgraded with 5 NVME SSDs, additional USB 3.2 I/O, 4K Video I/O card, and still have space for another GPU, which I plan on in the future, along with Afterburner, should Apple finally re-program it to be both encode/decode. The MBP just doesn't have that modularity, no matter how powerful it is.

The irony of all this is the 6,1 Mac Pro lost a lot of pro user cause it lost its expandability, in addition to its thermal constraints being built as an "all-in-one" machine. Apple acknowledged this by going big on the 7'1, and giving a ton more expansion than the 5,1, with huge fans and a massive power supply to support all kinds of expansion. I'd like to think that they don't want to repeat history again by removing the expandability, but I guess anything can happen.

 

[PowerMike G5]

I replaced the OEM VegaII MPX module with the W6800 Duo MPX module.

Do you notice a nice speed upgrade with this? I know its application dependent, but curious of your opinion at the moment. Is there more noise from this as well? I currently have the Pro Vega II MPX.

 

[jasonmvp]

Do you notice a nice speed upgrade with this? I know its application dependent, but curious of your opinion at the moment. Is there more noise from this as well? I currently have the Pro Vega II MPX.

For my present workload: it was a phenomenal waste of money. And I'm sorry I did it. I was hoping the hardware encoder(s) on the new GPUs would be better and more capable than the one on the old VegaII. But they just simply don't seem to be. I can maybe pull 4K @ 77FPS encoding in h.264, which is comically bad. AMD was supposedly focused on h.265 instead, but that performance is no better.

So, no, if I had to do it again, I'd have punted and kept the VegaII. But others are seeing different results because, as you said, it's workload and application dependent. And no, no extra noise. The fans are quiet as hell.

 

[PowerMike G5]

For my present workload: it was a phenomenal waste of money. And I'm sorry I did it. I was hoping the hardware encoder(s) on the new GPUs would be better and more capable than the one on the old VegaII. But they just simply don't seem to be. I can maybe pull 4K @ 77FPS encoding in h.264, which is comically bad. AMD was supposedly focused on h.265 instead, but that performance is no better.

So, no, if I had to do it again, I'd have punted and kept the VegaII. But others are seeing different results because, as you said, it's workload and application dependent. And no, no extra noise. The fans are quiet as hell.

Oh no, I'm sorry to hear.

Yeah, my interest would be for faster encode and even smoother playback for 4K/8K editing. I currently use Premiere Pro, so wasn't certain how the other GPU in the card would be treated. I know the program utilizes both GPUs for encodes/transcodes, but will only use a single GPU for accelerated playback. Unless the Duo GPU is seen as one in the OS and in PP, but I assume it sees it as 2 separate GPUs?

Same with Infinity Fabric Link - another option is to get another Vega II and connect them this way. But I'm uncertain how the OS and PP will see this setup.

 

[StuAff]

We don't know what Apple's got planned for the 7,1 replacement. Anyone who does know would not, or could not, or both, talk about it. The existing AS models aren't really an indication of what we can expect- except in terms of 'it'll be fast, really fast'. But given that the MBP had those missing ports back, that presumably the pro workflow team & customer feedback was listened to and had a significant influence on both the 7,1 and MBP, I'd be (very) cautiously optimistic. AS does not rule out expandable RAM (SGI did expandable unified memory with the O2), or multiple interchangeable GPUs, or a socketed CPU, and no amount of online whining means the next MP will be another can, only with everything soldered in. But we'll have to wait and see.

 

[jasonmvp]

I know the program utilizes both GPUs for encodes/transcodes, but will only use a single GPU for accelerated playback.

I'm nearly positive you have that backwards, though it's been a long while since I've used Pr. Since the introduction of Pr 7 (aka: the subscription model), it's been able to scale accelerated effects and playback across multiple GPUs. And it's done that pretty well. But when they finally introduced both hardware accelerated encoding and decoding, it was down to a single GPU.

Apple's VideoToolbox sees both encoders and decoders on the Duo card. But it's not clear that Apple provided the API to throw encoding or decoding workloads at both of them. In fact, I'm basically positive it doesn't.

AS does not rule out expandable RAM (SGI did expandable unified memory with the O2), or multiple interchangeable GPUs, or a socketed CPU, and no amount of online whining means the next MP will be another can, only with everything soldered in. But we'll have to wait and see.

All we have to go on right now is what we've seen over the past year. And the indications are very strongly in favor of a completely integrated solution. You're welcome to explain to us how Apple would maintain the wicked transfer speeds that AS has between CPU <--> GPU via the UMA, without actually doing UMA. What interface would the GPU have to the motherboard in that case? We know how fast a PCI-E v5 x16 slot is going to be: 512Gbits/sec. That's fast, but it isn't that fast in comparison. So what else could it be?

Also: "Online whining" is probably not the best way to classify what we're talking about here, and you don't get to come into an ongoing thread and crap all over it like that.

 

[StuAff]

All we have to go on right now is what we've seen over the past year. And the indications are very strongly in favor of a completely integrated solution. You're welcome to explain to us how Apple would maintain the wicked transfer speeds that AS has between CPU <--> GPU via the UMA, without actually doing UMA. What interface would the GPU have to the motherboard in that case? We know how fast a PCI-E v5 x16 slot is going to be: 512Gbits/sec. That's fast, but it isn't that fast in comparison. So what else could it be?

Also: "Online whining" is probably not the best way to classify what we're talking about here, and you don't get to come into an ongoing thread and crap all over it like that.

No insult was meant to the likes of yourself, I apologise for not making myself clearer. By 'whining' I mean the kind of kneejerk reactions I've seen on multiple YT speculation videos etc, from people who've already made up their minds about what Apple's going to do and appear never to learn from when they've got it wrong, which tends to be frequently. I don't claim to know any better than anyone else. But I know that I don't know it. And I, like you, would much prefer a "7,1 only with Apple Sillicon, still with eight slots and expandable/replaceable everything" to anything like Tube 2.0 (if it's the only option, as opposed to either/or).


With regard to the UMA problem, I would point out that the M1 has less than half the memory bandwidth of the 7,1 (68 vs 140 GB/s). The increase in bandwidth on the M1 Pro & M1 Max to 200 & 400 GB/s is in part due to the use of LPDDR5-6400 SDRAM & an eight-channel memory controller. Put that same RAM, or faster, in a desktop and that gap is going to close or go the other way. If SGI managed to get UMA combined with expandability, no reason why Apple couldn't. And if you're going to have expandable memory positioned to minimise latency, it's in exactly the right place on a 7,1.

 

[TECK]

This gets me all excited for the new Mac Pro, there's absolutely no way I'm buying an Intel one now. By then there should be zero compatibility issues.

My concern is about Windows, I need a Mac that is able to run Windows as dual boot, not through Parallels or other similar solution.

 

[jasonmvp]

With regard to the UMA problem, I would point out that the M1 has less than half the memory bandwidth of the 7,1 (68 vs 140 GB/s). The increase in bandwidth on the M1 Pro & M1 Max to 200 & 400 GB/s is in part due to the use of LPDDR5-6400 SDRAM & an eight-channel memory controller. Put that same RAM, or faster, in a desktop and that gap is going to close or go the other way. If SGI managed to get UMA combined with expandability, no reason why Apple couldn't. And if you're going to have expandable memory positioned to minimise latency, it's in exactly the right place on a 7,1.

Again, it still isn't going to help the GPU. Look at the speed of the PCI-E v5 bus. 512Gbits/sec or a whopping 64GBytes/sec. That's a far cry from the M1 Pro and Max's numbers.

 

[StuAff]

Again, it still isn't going to help the GPU. Look at the speed of the PCI-E v5 bus. 512Gbits/sec or a whopping 64GBytes/sec. That's a far cry from the M1 Pro and Max's numbers.

Well, the onboard GPUs on the Pro & Max certainly get help...PCIe 5.0 will be 128GB/sec for x16, and (if past performance is anything to go by) discrete GPUs won't come anywhere near saturating that. GamersNexus did tests with an RTX 3080 and there was barely any improvement from PCIe 3.0 to 4.0. The memory on discrete GPUs is far faster, of course (512GB/s on a Radeon W6800X). My guess would be that the plan is to keep the integrated GPUs (and if that so-far accurate diagram plays out, that's 128 graphics cores on the top spec, so at least four times faster than the M1 Max) and re-enable the ability to add further GPUs for those who want them. And that chip would have four times the media encoding engines as well.

 

[rondocap]

Counterpoint - is anyone actually upgrading any of the components inside the 2019 Mac Pro, beyond installing extra ram?

The 2013 Trash Can Mac Pro failed not simply because it couldn't be readily upgraded, but because Apple gambled wrongly on a dual-GPU setup (partly to accommodate the inadequate cooling of the smaller form factor) while the industry would go on to consolidate around a single, more powerful GPU.

Second, how is upgrading the M1 chip even supposed to work? The whole idea is that it is as efficient as it is precisely because all the parts are integrated together (as opposed to slotting individual computer parts into a case). Are we going to see expandable ram / SSD / modules for a hypothetical M1 Mac Pro in the future?

I agree that an expandable M1 Mac Pro more powerful than the most powerful iMac would be nice, to handle that 1% of edge cases, and I hope it happens as well. I just wonder how Apple would implement it.

Yes, I’ve upgraded extensively:

bought the cheapest base model:

1. Upgraded ssd to 4tb Apple ssd
2. 580x gpu to w6800x duos
3. Upgraded ram
4. Upgraded 8 core cpu to 28 core cpu bought 2nd hand
5. Added afterburner card
6. Added large hard drives with sonnet cage
7. Added multiple ssd and nvme with pcie cards

so very fun and capable, was able to get it to literally maxed out specs for much cheaper than if bought from Apple directly, and I had tons of fun.

as prices go down the next few years, this will be a really good machine to pick up secondhand and upgrade yourself.

and I use it mainly for things like 8K red raw, and while I can use a comparably powerful PC if I wanted to, the speed difference isn’t really that big and I prefer to use the Mac OS. I’ve tested them side-by-side, and while a PC would be ahead in things like 3-D rendering, for a video work i like the flow of the Mac.

 

[Boil]

Well, the onboard GPUs on the Pro & Max certainly get help...PCIe 5.0 will be 128GB/sec for x16, and (if past performance is anything to go by) discrete GPUs won't come anywhere near saturating that. GamersNexus did tests with an RTX 3080 and there was barely any improvement from PCIe 3.0 to 4.0. The memory on discrete GPUs is far faster, of course (512GB/s on a Radeon W6800X). My guess would be that the plan is to keep the integrated GPUs (and if that so-far accurate diagram plays out, that's 128 graphics cores on the top spec, so at least four times faster than the M1 Max) and re-enable the ability to add further GPUs for those who want them. And that chip would have four times the media encoding engines as well.

And four times the Neural Engines...!

 

[Abazigal]

We don't know what Apple's got planned for the 7,1 replacement. Anyone who does know would not, or could not, or both, talk about it. The existing AS models aren't really an indication of what we can expect- except in terms of 'it'll be fast, really fast'. But given that the MBP had those missing ports back, that presumably the pro workflow team & customer feedback was listened to and had a significant influence on both the 7,1 and MBP, I'd be (very) cautiously optimistic. AS does not rule out expandable RAM (SGI did expandable unified memory with the O2), or multiple interchangeable GPUs, or a socketed CPU, and no amount of online whining means the next MP will be another can, only with everything soldered in. But we'll have to wait and see.

You are right.

I am in part assuming that any M1 Mac Pro will be a souped up Mac Mini (which is itself non-upgradable) in either a cube or trash can form factor. That seems to be the whole selling point of M1 - you can’t upgrade your Macs ever, but their performance promises to be better than anything intel has to offer, so multiple years down the road, an older M1 Mac sans upgrades will still be better than the latest and bestest that the competition has to offer.

The 2019 Mac Pro is also in the interesting position of being the most powerful intel Mac that Apple has ever released, right before their M1 Macs were announced. It also raises the question of how long Apple will continue to support macOS for intel.

We will just have to wait and see, I guess.

 

[PowerMike G5]

The 2019 Mac Pro is also in the interesting position of being the most powerful intel Mac that Apple has ever released, right before their M1 Macs were announced. It also raises the question of how long Apple will continue to support macOS for intel.

We will just have to wait and see, I guess.

Yeah, one would like to think there will be many, many years of support for this, simply because the 7,1 is the most powerful Mac ever released and still current, but we'll just have to see.

Given Intel machines will be available for sale through at least 2022, I'd imagine they'd be supported for at least another 4-5 years past 2022. If they do release one more Intel-based Mac Pro in 2022 as rumored, this timeline of support would be even longer I'd imagine, since they have to support it for quite some time after its discontinuation.

So having bought the 7,1 when it was first released, I feel good about its lifespan.

 

[SecuritySteve]

Yeah, one would like to think there will be many, many years of support for this, simply because the 7,1 is the most powerful Mac ever released and still current, but we'll just have to see.

Given Intel machines will be available for sale through at least 2022, I'd imagine they'd be supported for at least another 4-5 years past 2022. If they do release one more Intel-based Mac Pro in 2022 as rumored, this timeline of support would be even longer I'd imagine, since they have to support it for quite some time after its discontinuation.

So having bought the 7,1 when it was first released, I feel good about its lifespan.

I agree. I feel that the 7,1 will likely get a lot of life out of its purchase.

The only area that concerns me is the GPU drivers. Apple has to own and write the GPU drivers for AMD GPUs on Intel Macs, which means if they don't feel like writing any more AMD drivers after the release of the Apple Silicon Mac Pro (8,1 most likely) then the current generation of AMD GPUs will be the last for Intel Macs running macOS.

 

[Boil]

Refreshing the 2019 Mac Pro; Apple would have to design, qualify, & produce all new motherboards to go with the new Xeon CPUs (and the same again for MPX module RDNA3 GPUs); to me this would be something that does not contribute to the Apple silicon transition whatsoever...?

I want to see an online Apple Store where there are zero remnants of Intel remaining...!

And I want my SGI O2, er, I mean my Mac Pro Cube...!!! ;^p