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Yet they still offer a 30 days of Microtrend antivirus on the Dell. It seems they are still offering kickbacks even though not as much.

I think we may have already discussed the need for a higher wattage power supply on workstations to deal with various load conditions as a fallback. As it plays into the reliability factor. Running a power supply at nearly full load over long periods of time can cause premature failure as well as excessive heat. ( As its only 500W ) Depending on the use of course.
They see a need to provide users with some anti-malware software (at least long enough of a license term that the user can select the malware product of their choosing).

Granted, bundling malware can help generate sales for the malware vendor used, so they offer it to system vendors at very little cost.

But their workstations don't come with all of the crap that the consumer systems do.

In terms of PSU, most vendors use around that particular wattage rating. And when used with a single GPU, it will be fine (can be a problem if a second GPU is added, depending on the card, as well as other cards in the PCIe slots).

PSU design, QC, and parts selection matter greatly in terms of it lasting (i.e. if it's Active PFC or not, if it has sufficient capacitance, if they can take the heat, ...). Even what the rating is matters (peak vs. continuous/nominal value). For example, a 500W PSU that's it's peak rating will only be able to deliver ~350W continuous. I suspect this is what you've probably run into, as most ratings are peak values if it's not explicitly stated as continuous/nominal power ratings.

I didn't read the whole thread, so forgive me if someone already said this, but no, they're not overpriced. When people try to compare PCs to Mac Pros they almost never take into account that a Mac Pro is really closer to a server. Ecc memory, server based. Nehalem proc, server based. Apple isn't actually competing in the headless PC market. They have their mobile line, a AIO solution, and a server solution. Wait.. I guess the Mac Mini would be in the headless class. Compare specs from that to a PC if you want.. The only thing you would be missing is custom hardware.

But no, people need to stop that comparison. Mac Pros aren't rack mount, but those are the systems they need to be compared to.
When comparing true workstations and the PC variants come in cheaper (same Xeons and use ECC memory), then those comparisons are valid.

For example of a valid comparison of SP models (Xeon based workstations), take a look at post #39.

Comparing the MP to various consumer based PC systems definitely aren't valid (which unfortunately, does tend to happen when the price issue surfaces).
 
High-end components cost a lot more. The question is if you really need these components?

If you don't need multiprocessor or ECC Ram, I would never even think of getting a mac pro.

You'd be unwise to choose the $2500 quadcore 3 gb MacPro over the $1000 pc you can build that performs much better.

But at the high end, the price seems fair. Try configuring a dell workstation with a dual six core and you will see that the price is very similar to the Mac Pros.
 
Comparing the MP to various consumer based PC systems definitely aren't valid (which unfortunately, does tend to happen when the price issue surfaces).

The comparison is not valid on a like-for-like hardware comparison; you are completely correct.

Where the comparison with PC consumer systems arises, is for the user who requires expansion capabilities but does not require server hardware. Thunderbolt has thankfully enabled some expansion capability for lower end Mac hardware now - but up to this point the only machine in the range you could buy if you wanted to add full speed disks and change graphics cards was the Pro.

It is my belief that most MacPro owners do not require server grade hardware; therefore they end up wasting money on stuff they don't need just to get expandability. When compared with PCs, their requirements could be met a lot more cheaply - and for those people the MacPro/Consumer PC comparison is valid.

I own a MacPro, I bought it for the disk expandability. It's a great machine, but I could have bought a PC to suit my requirements for a lot less. Unfortunately Apple chooses not to compete against that market sector.
 
The comparison is not valid on a like-for-like hardware comparison; you are completely correct.

Where the comparison with PC consumer systems arises, is for the user who requires expansion capabilities but does not require server hardware. Thunderbolt has thankfully enabled some expansion capability for lower end Mac hardware now - but up to this point the only machine in the range you could buy if you wanted to add full speed disks and change graphics cards was the Pro.

It is my belief that most MacPro owners do not require server grade hardware; therefore they end up wasting money on stuff they don't need just to get expandability. When compared with PCs, their requirements could be met a lot more cheaply - and for those people the MacPro/Consumer PC comparison is valid.

I own a MacPro, I bought it for the disk expandability. It's a great machine, but I could have bought a PC to suit my requirements for a lot less. Unfortunately Apple chooses not to compete against that market sector.
I understand your point, but Apple doesn't offer a consumer grade tower with slots (i-whatever CPU and non-ECC memory).

So if a user needs PCIe slots and wants to run OS X (not a hackintosh), the MP is the only option available to them.

As to your argument that a lot of MP users don't need Xeons and ECC memory, I agree. Content creation has no real need of Xeons and ECC memory, though those components are designed with heavy duty use in mind. But since the recent LGA1366 i7's are essentially Xeons (ECC portion of the memory controller is disabled = they're sold as consumer i7's), they're up to the same duty cycle as the Xeons so long as the cooling is done properly.
 
"Expensive" is a matter of personal opinion. Are there cheaper workstation systems out there (that equal MP Spec)? You bet...


I'd have alot more love for the MP IF Apple allowed them to use ANY AMD 5xxx and 6xxx COTS GPU. The fact that MP owners are getting excited over a $350.00 5870 is a total joke. PCI-E is PCI-E...(Apple) work with AMD to bring support of it's full Desktop line (5970 and 6990 excluded for obvious reasons>PWS). Slim the tower down a bit and give us an entry option around 1699.99 (with the new intel IB CPU's).

The CPU's they bless them with are INCREDIBLE. Now allow us to upgrade them with Graphics that match.
 
If you think new MacPros are expensive grab a used one. There are a lot of good deals out there and few things that can go bad are HDD and RAM so thats your worst case scenario if you need to replace anything.

If you are good tech guy sure you can build a Hackintosh. There are tons of information outhere to build your HackMac accordingly before you even try to run OSX on it. Just make sure you read, read, read before doing anything.

There are no rights or wrongs just do whats more comfortable for you.


My main gripe with MacPro is limited GPU offer and poor driver support.
 
High priced workstations should come with a 3 year warranty right out of the box.

Other than that: a Mac Pro is the only option available to Mac users who run more demanding software (or use it in a more demanding way), and need a first-class, glare-free screen.

I agree with a previous poster that the single processor Mac Pros are a bad deal and should no longer be offered.
 
I agree with a previous poster that the single processor Mac Pros are a bad deal and should no longer be offered.

Ever since the hexcore came out to SP Mac Pro's does not seem to be a problem anymore.
 
I'm not talking about gaming.
Hah? Workstation graphics card? 5870 isn't a workstation graphics card.

So yes, it's funny. Mac Pro isn't for working with any form of graphic-intense work. It's for CPU-intense work, which it's great for. But for graphics, no. And for a workstation in 6000$ segment you would expect it to be able to function for any type of work.

Got it. I obviously misunderstood.
 
I'd have alot more love for the MP IF Apple allowed them to use ANY AMD 5xxx and 6xxx COTS GPU. The fact that MP owners are getting excited over a $350.00 5870 is a total joke. PCI-E is PCI-E...(Apple) work with AMD to bring support of it's full Desktop line (5970 and 6990 excluded for obvious reasons>PWS). Slim the tower down a bit and give us an entry option around 1699.99 (with the new intel IB CPU's).
What you're asking for however, is a consumer product.

Granted, not everyone actually needs a Xeon or ECC memory, but Xeon is the only way to get a DP based system for those who need it. Creative content professionals for example, don't actually need ECC memory. But if they have software than can leverage more than 6 cores, a Xeon is still currently necessary (DP system), and will continue to be the case with Sandy Bridge E5's (SP versions will still only have up to 6 cores).

Currently, we're in a transitional state. In the not too distant past, workstation users have traditionally needed more cores than a single CPU can provide. This is changing however, and as core counts per CPU continue to increase (currently at 6 cores per on SP CPUID's, and 8 due with LGA2011 Ivy Bridge parts), more and more workstation users will be able to opt for SP systems (DP and MP <Multi-Processor> systems shifting exclusively to server/cluster/cloud usages).

Which will allow workstation users additional choices (consumer versions for those that do not need ECC memory, and Xeons for those that do need ECC).

Now some will argue that DP systems are still relevant, and for some, they are. Most software isn't truly n-core multi-threaded however (some is single, and some may be limited to a fixed core count), making the SP variants the right choice for the majority of users (more cost effective as well).

Something to think about anyway.

High priced workstations should come with a 3 year warranty right out of the box.
Most do. Take a look at the workstation offerings from vendors such as Dell T3500 and T5500) and HP (Z600 and Z800).

Ever since the hexcore came out to SP Mac Pro's does not seem to be a problem anymore.
Exactly, and the core count is going to continue to increase. Thus making SP systems viable for more and more workstation users as the trend continues.
 
Most people who complain that the Mac Pro is overpriced are the same people who compare cars that they've never seen in real life let alone having driven. They may never have owned a Mac Pro or spent the time using one, but they have definitely browsed many online forums to formulate their so-called expert opinion on the subject. They are the "self-respecting tech-savvy" folks. Funny thing is: "Savvy" ≠ "Having the ability to formulate logical and coherent arguments."

Any ways these people are fueled by you actually reading their comments. I usually just ignore those people.

The Mac Pro is hugely overpriced. I can build a faster machine with identical reliability running OS X in a higher quality case for 60% of the price. On a regular basis, I drive an Audi A8l, Audi Q5, Land Rover LR2, and my father's Maserati Granturismo S. I've driven several Aston Martins and one Ferrari at the dealer in Greenwich, CT.

So much for that argument.
 
I'm not talking about gaming.
Hah? Workstation graphics card? 5870 isn't a workstation graphics card.

So yes, it's funny. Mac Pro isn't for working with any form of graphic-intense work. It's for CPU-intense work, which it's great for. But for graphics, no. And for a workstation in 6000$ segment you would expect it to be able to function for any type of work.

What's wrong with the Mac Pro graphics cards? What can't you do with it?
 
What's wrong with the Mac Pro graphics cards? What can't you do with it?

With driver hacks, I believe you can do near anything the Fire GL and Quadro cards can.

That being said, to me the problem is twofold. First, the Mac Pro's are overpriced for their hardware.

Second, OS X is far behind Windows 7 when it comes to allowing hardware to perform to it's potential.

For example, I get a 6.75 CPU Cinebench score with my four core Hackintosh in OS X Lion (which still blows away $3000 Mac Pro's). In windows, I get 9.28.

On the Open GL Cinebench, I get 44 FPS in Lion. I get 95.77fps in windows with crossfire disabled. If I enable it, that would double to around 170fps.

So in short, Os X is around 4x slower in open GL performance than Windpws 7 is. 8x if you count crossfire support.

The upshot? You can have a $600 computer be 4x faster at Cinebench than a $3000 4 core Mac Pro. Apple has to do three things to effectively undercut PC desktops:

1. Chop $1000 off the price
2. Put faster video cards in
3. Update to Sandy Bridge

Now THAT would be a compelling machine. Until then, a Mac Pro simply isn't fast enough for my needs - and is significantly more expensive for less performance.
 
What's wrong with the Mac Pro graphics cards? What can't you do with it?

workstation cards are optimized for OpenGL rendering, which is what most professional 3D apps use (Rhino, Maya, SketchUp, etc.). their drivers are also optimized for precision, not performance. the result on Windows is that professional cards (NVidia Quadro or AMD Firepro) will run circles around desktop cards (Geforce, Radeon) in professional applications. some features aren't even available if you don't have a professional card.

the problem on Mac is that there are very few professional options – right now only the Quadro FX 4800 and the Quadro 4000 are on sale – they were overpriced until the Quadro 4000 came out, there are no low/mid/high-end options, only mid, and the drivers all suck, so they aren't hands-down better than using a desktop card. up until the 4000, the GTX 285 was the best all-around NVidia option (necessary for CUDA, and some apps just perform better on NVidia). the 4000 has better drivers now, but it still doesn't outperform the 5870, which is just pathetic considering its cost.

and no, there are no driver hacks. older Geforce cards could be hacked into a Quadro, but from what I understand that's gone now, and you can't do it on Macs anyway.
 
So, basically, OS X focuses too much on new features and neglects core processing power like OpenGL?

So, both of you, toxic and computerpro3 are saying that OS X is much weaker than Windows 7?

And there's that driver issue you mentioned. As a mac only user I haven't put a thought on drivers (Windows users always hunt for them). So, are the Mac drivers for graphics cards really so bad, and what needs to be changed to bring them up to date? (and are there any 3rd party software applications that improve open GL and the drivers in OS X)?
 
workstation cards are optimized for OpenGL rendering, which is what most professional 3D apps use (Rhino, Maya, SketchUp, etc.). their drivers are also optimized for precision, not performance. the result on Windows is that professional cards (NVidia Quadro or AMD Firepro) will run circles around desktop cards (Geforce, Radeon) in professional applications. some features aren't even available if you don't have a professional card.

the problem on Mac is that there are very few professional options – right now only the Quadro FX 4800 and the Quadro 4000 are on sale – they were overpriced until the Quadro 4000 came out, there are no low/mid/high-end options, only mid, and the drivers all suck, so they aren't hands-down better than using a desktop card. up until the 4000, the GTX 285 was the best all-around NVidia option (necessary for CUDA, and some apps just perform better on NVidia). the 4000 has better drivers now, but it still doesn't outperform the 5870, which is just pathetic considering its cost.

and no, there are no driver hacks. older Geforce cards could be hacked into a Quadro, but from what I understand that's gone now, and you can't do it on Macs anyway.

I totally forgot we were talking about os x when I mentioned the driver hacks and softmods. DOH!

Sorry about that. Still working on switching my paradigm from windows only!
 
I totally forgot we were talking about os x when I mentioned the driver hacks and softmods. DOH!

Sorry about that. Still working on switching my paradigm from windows only!

The Quadra 4000 for Mac is not more expensive than the PC version. But do you mean it can't perform equally because of poor driver design?
 
The single processor Mac Pro's are about $1k more expensive than its PC equivalent whilst the dual processor Mac Pro's are on par with its equivalent. I'd ignore him. He doesn't know what he's talking about, although it is cheaper to build pretty much any PC than it is to buy any pre-built.
 
The Mac Pro is hugely overpriced. I can build a faster machine with identical reliability running OS X in a higher quality case for 60% of the price

Your comparing consumer based system to a workstation, not a good comparison.

Hackintoshes are great if you like tinkering on your own computer. Not so great when used in big business and enterprise.

Second, OS X is far behind Windows 7 when it comes to allowing hardware to perform to it's potential.

Mac OSX is built primarily for ease of use & reliability and stability, performance comes after.

I will never trust a hackintosh for my uses as any system upgrade can render it useless. Can't waste my time with constant troubleshooting if something goes wrong.

The single processor Mac Pro's are about $1k more expensive than its PC equivalent whilst the dual processor Mac Pro's are on par with its equivalent.

As I said in a previous post, with the hexacore single processors out, that's not true anymore.
 
So, basically, OS X focuses too much on new features and neglects core processing power like OpenGL?

I can't say what Apple is doing with OS X in general, but OpenGL support has been neglected. 10.6 uses OpenGL 2.1, 10.7 uses 3.2, current version is 4.2.

So, both of you, toxic and computerpro3 are saying that OS X is much weaker than Windows 7?

that's just a stupid generalization. OS X is a dubious platform for 3D content creation because of its lack of (satisfactory) workstation video card and OpenGL support, but that's just one aspect.

And there's that driver issue you mentioned. As a mac only user I haven't put a thought on drivers (Windows users always hunt for them). So, are the Mac drivers for graphics cards really so bad, and what needs to be changed to bring them up to date? (and are there any 3rd party software applications that improve open GL and the drivers in OS X)?

Apple needs to work with NVidia more to get better drivers and more Quadro options on Macs, or since they've loved AMD in the past couple years, get FirePro onto Macs. and support OpenGL better.
 
Your comparing consumer based system to a workstation, not a good comparison.

No I'm not. I'm talking workstation boards, ecc memory, etc.


Hackintoshes are great if you like tinkering on your own computer. Not so great when used in big business and enterprise.

Mac's aren't generally used in big business and enterprise in general, so it's a moot point.


I will never trust a hackintosh for my uses as any system upgrade can render it useless.


System update works great on my Hackintosh, and there's no logical reason it would ever render it not working. If you're using AMD chips, perhaps, but mine is using the same chipsets, processors, etc that Os X supports.

To give you the idea of the performance possibilities, if you exclude my gaming graphics cards (Crossfire HD6950's), the cost of my system is around $700-800. It scores 16.5k in Geekbench, which is equivalent to an 8 core Mac Pro.

If I wanted to do something like an EVGA SR-2 build, well, quite frankly there's no limit to performance at a fraction of the cost of the 12 core Mac Pro.
 
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SR2 is usually around $600, while Xeon DP will set you back around $700-1000 a pop. Add a pro case, 1000W PSU, and some ECC ram and you will be over 3k, or "12core MP is not such a bad deal" territory.

I agree that SP Mac Pros are a waste of time, anyone has that much money to burn deserves to be no-lubed by SJ (Tim Cook?Lol)
 
its the apple tax

sure its way overpriced but its worth it since the machine is that good
 
Let's talk real numbers. A loaded 12 core Mac pro costs about 12.5k. 2 2.93 Westmeres, 48gb ECC ram, 3 2 TB Drives, 512gb ssd, 2x 5770s.

The exact same hardware costs $6038 total. So you're literally paying double the cost. Newegg for proof:



SILVERSTONE Temjin Series TJ10-B Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Computer Case
Item #: N82E16811163091
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
$35.00 Mail-in Rebate
$299.99


SAMSUNG EcoGreen F4 HD204UI 2TB SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
Item #: N82E16822152245
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
Protect Your Investment (expand for options)
-$10.00 Instant
$269.97
$239.97
($79.99 each)


SAPPHIRE 100283-3L Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card
Item #: N82E16814102873
Return Policy: VGA Standard Return Policy
Protect Your Investment (expand for options)
-$10.00 Instant
$20.00 Mail-in Rebate Card
$259.98
$239.98
($119.99 each)


CORSAIR Professional Series Gold AX850 (CMPSU-850AX) 850W ATX12V v2.31 / EPS12V v2.92 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Modular Active ...
Item #: N82E16817139015
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
-$10.00 Instant
$199.99
$189.99


EVGA Classified SR-2 270-WS-W555-A2 LGA 1366 Intel 5520 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 HPTX Intel Motherboard
Item #: N82E16813188070
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
Protect Your Investment (expand for options)
-$10.00 Instant
$589.99
$579.99


Wintec 48GB (6 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) ECC Registered Server Memory Model 3RSH13339R5H-48GH
Item #: N82E16820161459
Return Policy: Memory Standard Return Policy
-$50.00 Instant
$899.99
$849.99


Crucial M4 CT512M4SSD2 2.5" 512GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)
Item #: N82E16820148444
Return Policy: Limited Replacement Only Return Policy
-$45.00 Instant
$799.99
$754.99


Intel Xeon X5670 Westmere 2.93GHz LGA 1366 95W Six-Core Server Processor BX80614X5670
Item #: N82E16819117229
Return Policy: CPU Replacement Only Return Policy
-$27.98 Instant
$2,939.98
$2,884.02
($1,442.01 each

So that's for the exact same industrial grade hardware. It's double the cost.

If you are willing to lose ECC, you can have the PC hardware cost yet again since you're not stuck with Xeons.

If you're willing to keep equivalent performance while changing componets, you can save tons of money again. For example, use a single video card (higher overall performance), 3tb drives, etc.

I'm not going to argue necessarily that it's overpriced, as to some people it is worth it to pay double simply to have the Mac logo on it. If it's worth it to you, it's worth it to you - if people knew what I spend on clothes, they would have me locked up.

That being said, just be aware that on a top of the line Mac Pro you're paying about double RETAIL prices for the hardware - never mind the volume discounts that Apple has.
 
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