Drop the ridiculous Apple RAM, SSD and extra video card and you are heading back into ~$1000 Apple tax territory again. I get what you are saying (and agree) but please use "real" examples. Real as in, who the fudge buys RAM from Apple?!
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Mac Pro overpriced?
- Thread starter iWalrus
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wow, you can build your own computer for less!
everyone knows that you can build yourself for cheaper, and the price differential between DIY and OEM gets bigger for higher performance. that doesn't mean you're paying double the cost, you don't have development, manufacturing, distribution, and support overheads.
a dual-processor Mac Pro is cheaper or comparable to its competitors. it is not competing with user-built computers.
I did a quick check at Dell, and the 3.33GHz Mac Pro was $600 more expensive than the 3.46GHz Dell T3500. That however wasn't taking into account the better GPU on the Mac Pro, or the better warranty on the T3500. Or any peripherals, etc.
How about the notations of a few posters about the lower quality openGL rendering on a Mac vs. a PC and the poorer quality of the high end graphics card drivers.
Any notes on this?
Any notes on this?
It's nothing to do with 'quality'.. I don't know any professional CAD programs or anything else that are using 4+. The main feature with opengl4 is support for hardware tessellation, which very few games even make use of yet. And that's what it's designed for.
Well, hopefully if I did my research right but, the Dell T3500 uses the intel X3690 where the Mac Pro uses the intel X5680. Which would probably account for the price difference.
Looking at the quadcore side: Dell T3500 Intel X3550, Mac Pro Intel X5580
It seems the T3500 is Dells cheaper workstations, so to compare equally with Apple you would have to compare Dell's T5500 line of workstations.
Not really sure how to find out the exact ones used in Mac Pros, but maybe somebody else can chime in on this.
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I'd hardly say that. It might be worth it to someone to get the SP Mac Pro instead of a Dell, for many possible reasons.
Apple charges a lot of money for upgrades, so by "maxing it out" the results are very skewed. It's very easy to replace hard drives, SSDs, RAM, and GPUs in the Mac Pro, so there's no reason not to buy them elsewhere and do it yourself. Not mention you're comparing it against a self-built, not a retail machine.
I spec'd up a machine from NewEgg that matched the spec's of the Mac Pro (base but with 2x2.93GHz CPU) and it came to 3.8k. Although ultimately I wouldn't be surprised if Apple used more expensive parts.
The dual processor Mac Pro is on par with its competition but building a computer yourself will always be cheaper.
The single processor Mac Pro's only use W series not X series CPUs unlike the dual processor Mac Pro's. The 3.33GHz option is the W3680. The W3680 costs $1000 and the X5680 is $1600.
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yeah, it's not really quality, it's performance. look up any review on a Mac Quadro (Ars Technica has some) and you'll see the dubiousness of spending the money on one, especially considering the cost. that's purely from poorly optimized drivers.
programs are still using OpenGL 3, but you can still see Apple dragging their heels on support because 10.6 came out in June 2009, while OpenGL 3.0 came out in July 2008, 3.1 in March 2009. plenty of time to implement.
I buy genuine Mac hardware because I prefer OS X *and* I don't have time with my freelance video business to be tinkering with hardware and software whenever an update breaks a Hackintosh. Naysayers tell me I'm just wasting money and to me, that's certainly not the case. My 2008 Mac Pro has been 100% reliable since the day I bought it. NO repairs. And it's paid for itself many times over with work.
So, whoever raises this argument must remember that there is a distinct difference between an enthusiast (who often devotes more time to tweaking stuff) and a working professional that values uptime over everything else. If an enthusiast wants to save money and build a Hackintosh, I won't stop him. I won't even laugh or criticize him.
The real point here is that people (within reason, anyway) will buy what suits them. Take cars, for example. I prefer how European cars drive, so I drive a VW, much to the ridicule I get from my Honda-driving friends. I like tinkering with my car and it's a hobby. Some people don't care about that and rather drive a reliable, gas-sipping Civic. To each his own.
So, whoever raises this argument must remember that there is a distinct difference between an enthusiast (who often devotes more time to tweaking stuff) and a working professional that values uptime over everything else. If an enthusiast wants to save money and build a Hackintosh, I won't stop him. I won't even laugh or criticize him.
The real point here is that people (within reason, anyway) will buy what suits them. Take cars, for example. I prefer how European cars drive, so I drive a VW, much to the ridicule I get from my Honda-driving friends. I like tinkering with my car and it's a hobby. Some people don't care about that and rather drive a reliable, gas-sipping Civic. To each his own.
Of course they're overpriced, it's Apple we're talking about.
They didn't become as cash rich as they are by pricing like the rest. But I don't care and I don't argue right or wrong. I buy what I like and ignore the price. Having used Macs for years I expect high prices.
I'm just focused on enjoying my MacPros now. Sadly I don't think they will last much longer before Apple abandons them.
The Cupertino company has become addicted to the more profitable mobile space and all the attention they get. There's a lot of egos to feed at Apple.
By claiming the beginning of the Post PC ERA, Apple is sending a clear message of their intensions. It's all about fart apps & entertainment. Tablets and app store revenue. Catering to the retail public they've found success as never before. They just want the money.
They didn't become as cash rich as they are by pricing like the rest. But I don't care and I don't argue right or wrong. I buy what I like and ignore the price. Having used Macs for years I expect high prices.
I'm just focused on enjoying my MacPros now. Sadly I don't think they will last much longer before Apple abandons them.
The Cupertino company has become addicted to the more profitable mobile space and all the attention they get. There's a lot of egos to feed at Apple.
By claiming the beginning of the Post PC ERA, Apple is sending a clear message of their intensions. It's all about fart apps & entertainment. Tablets and app store revenue. Catering to the retail public they've found success as never before. They just want the money.
So basically you are saying that Apple is fine where it is with openGL support and the performance of the graphics cards is fine?
This discussion about the difference of gaming graphics cards and professional graphics cards used e.g. for 3D applications has spiked my interest in this topic.
Where would video fit in in regards to graphics card performance?
Are the higher levels of rendering/openGL performance only reached by 3D applications and CAD software?
No... Greater support would be fantastic, just to have the option if any developer wants to make use of it. But the biggest performance bottleneck isn't the 'opengl version', its simply dodgy graphics drivers. But in saying that, they're constantly improving (we get updates a lot more than we used to) It's not as simple as saying 'if apple had version xxxx of opengl everything would be faster'. Most of the people saying these things are gamers who simply want a bigger number. I have yet to see any games taking advantage of 3.2. Everyone still seems to be using 2.1+extensions. But I'm pretty sure having 3.2 will make the CAD people happy. They're not going to need anything more than that, at least at this stage.
wow, you can build your own computer for less!
everyone knows that you can build yourself for cheaper, and the price differential between DIY and OEM gets bigger for higher performance. that doesn't mean you're paying double the cost, you don't have development, manufacturing, distribution, and support overheads.
a dual-processor Mac Pro is cheaper or comparable to its competitors. it is not competing with user-built computers.
Good point. Then its not only Apple who we are talking about, but can under build on price for any name brand computer company out there. But considering less then one percent of people ( The last data I've seen about it ) who build their own computers it makes sense, people are always going to need these computer companies to build them.
I run W7 on my MP as well as SL. If I could afford a separate Windows machine I'd probably order a Dell T as HP's future is uncertain. I've assembled my own Wintel boxes in the past but that gets old. It's great to have a new, completely assembled computer with a long warranty available.
Sometimes you just want to own a really fine piece of equipment. . . like a camera, a car or a computer. For Mac OS users that's a Mac Pro. Sure it's a little overpriced. Yes they could offer some better processors. Absolutely Apple misses the boat on having the proper number of USB and FW ports. And of course, in 2011, where are the eSATA and USB 3 ports in?
It's not a perfect world. The Mac Pro is not perfect. What it is though is an excellent, well-built, well-crafted and sturdy computer that desktop, power enthusiasts and professionals use for years. To me it was worth every penny.
Sometimes you just want to own a really fine piece of equipment. . . like a camera, a car or a computer. For Mac OS users that's a Mac Pro. Sure it's a little overpriced. Yes they could offer some better processors. Absolutely Apple misses the boat on having the proper number of USB and FW ports. And of course, in 2011, where are the eSATA and USB 3 ports in?
It's not a perfect world. The Mac Pro is not perfect. What it is though is an excellent, well-built, well-crafted and sturdy computer that desktop, power enthusiasts and professionals use for years. To me it was worth every penny.
...Or any computer parts for that matter. When I buy a Mac I usually get the cheapest HD then replace it with a non-apple one as soon as I get it.
So it's the graphics drivers that should be better written and more often upgraded.
Apple has a history of treating graphics cards poorly. Can you remember those basic cards that came with Mac Pro just 3 years back - and almost no upgrade options?
That's when people bought PC cards, and flushed them. I just wonder what they did about the non-existent mac drivers to those cards.
Price comparison alert
I swung by this post again to see how the argument has flowed.
Then I went to Dell UK and Apple UK, where I priced up as similar workstations as I could.
A Dell T7500 (Advanced) Workstation with a pair of 6 core 2.66 GHz Xeons 12 GB RAM all the wireless and Ethernet cards, recovery drivers, mouse, keyboard and 3 Year Warranty is £3770.49 ex.VAT so £4524.59 inc.VAT.
A Mac Pro 2 x 2.66 GHz 6 cores but 6 GB RAM and AppleCare is £4886 inc.VAT with all the same bits in.
Crucial sell another 6 GB of RAM for £52.79 and let us be honest here, who the hell buys extra memory for their workstation from Apple?
Total cost £4938.79.
Apple Tax £414.20
So 8.4% of the total cost of the Mac Pro including Crucial's cut. Her Majesty's Government takes 20% in Value Added Tax of course.
Not having to use Windows every day? Priceless.
I swung by this post again to see how the argument has flowed.
Then I went to Dell UK and Apple UK, where I priced up as similar workstations as I could.
A Dell T7500 (Advanced) Workstation with a pair of 6 core 2.66 GHz Xeons 12 GB RAM all the wireless and Ethernet cards, recovery drivers, mouse, keyboard and 3 Year Warranty is £3770.49 ex.VAT so £4524.59 inc.VAT.
A Mac Pro 2 x 2.66 GHz 6 cores but 6 GB RAM and AppleCare is £4886 inc.VAT with all the same bits in.
Crucial sell another 6 GB of RAM for £52.79 and let us be honest here, who the hell buys extra memory for their workstation from Apple?
Total cost £4938.79.
Apple Tax £414.20
So 8.4% of the total cost of the Mac Pro including Crucial's cut. Her Majesty's Government takes 20% in Value Added Tax of course.
Not having to use Windows every day? Priceless.
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Here is the difference -- Mac Pros are for Professionals, i.e., people who make $ from their machine. The guys who sneer at people for not "building their own" because Macs are "overpriced" make as much logic as chiding a construction worker for buying a $300 Makita drill instead of a $25 Walmart house brand.
Truth is you really can't talk logic to these naysayers because their own ego is involved. What they don't understand is that for working people, time is money, so on that metric alone building a computer, loading the s/w and drivers, test, troubleshooting bugs, etc. is quite expensive.
If you compare a Mac to a similar spec PC Macs are maybe 10%-15% more. BUT Macs also have 80% better resale value than that similar PC. So in the end a Mac's price tag might be more but cost of ownership is actually less.
Truth is you really can't talk logic to these naysayers because their own ego is involved. What they don't understand is that for working people, time is money, so on that metric alone building a computer, loading the s/w and drivers, test, troubleshooting bugs, etc. is quite expensive.
If you compare a Mac to a similar spec PC Macs are maybe 10%-15% more. BUT Macs also have 80% better resale value than that similar PC. So in the end a Mac's price tag might be more but cost of ownership is actually less.
What's difficult with building your own PC?
The more I read in this topic, the more it seems like everyone who buys Mac Pro's knows very little about computers. Mac Pro's are indeed incredible machines.. but come on?
It's not difficult to build your own computer from parts. I did it in 1 evening. Time is money.. but you guys can't even spare 1 evening? Obviously my system wasn't as complexed as one compared to the Mac Pro specs but still.
I've had no problems with my system yet. So I don't see the problem.
Don't get me wrong. I like Mac Pro's but you seem to base your whole reasoning for buying a Mac Pro on the fact that "time is money".
Because they are not in the computer building business. They are using the Mac Pro to get their work done. Not to provide their own technical support if something goes wrong.
Talk about ego.
Here's the difference - as a true professional, investing one evening of my time building a machine that is 60% faster than a comparably priced Mac Pro allows me to have a 60% greater ROI than you do - every single day, 24/7 that my machine is running.
Time is indeed money, and that's why I can't be arsed waiting for a dog slog machine. My quad core custom PC outscores or is equivalent to 8 core Mac Pro's in benchmarks - all while running OS X flawlessly - including software update - and dominating Final Cut Pro and Aperture.
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I can build my own PC, and built a lot of them. It is fun, but currently I just want a machine that "just works" when I opened up the box.
You are 100% correct. It's the reason I bought my first Mac in 1988 and why I keep buying them. Productivity is everything.
FWIW I did once build my own Media PC (Win XP Media Center). Snapping the parts together is easy enough but getting all the drivers to all cooperate was another story. Got it to work but not fun troubleshooting. When the Mini came out I mothballed it and used the Mini -- again productivity is everything.
That is now. Try the pricing model 1 year ago. Apple never discounts individual parts into it's price as Dell and others do. Because they are ONLY a sum of their parts. (Not saying Apple technically isn't, but...)
For what it's worth I would and have never bought a PC from a manufacturer. Since all they are is parts and a crap case. I buy a nice case and build my own. Apple is the only company I buy actual built computers from.
Nothing goes wrong. Everyone can build a computer these days and if they're gonna work with it it'd be better if they actually knows HOW it works and not just "it just works". The day something does goes wrong and Apple support is bogged down you'll be all alone. Talk about not being able to stand on your own feet!
Geez. It's funny because on this other community for overclocking I'm defending Mac and Apple against stubborn Apple-haters. Here at Macrumors I'm defending PC against arrogant and naive Apple-fanboys.
Maybe I'm schitzo.