Mac Studio M1 Ultra GPU will be beaten by AMD and Nvidia in just 6-7 months.

[jjcs]

If you're using Linux why are you not using Vulkan or CUDA or any of the other far more recent (open, if you plan to run on Linux) APIs for GPUs instead?

Writing for OpenGL is writing software for 1999...

Probably because I'm (1) talking about GRAPHICS not the use of GPUs for computational purposes and (2) the software has already been written and works fine. I'm not going to rewrite it to because Apple wants to drop the API for their own convenience. Especially industry-standard NASA codes.

Metal is irrelevant to me. YMMV. At least as far as writing my own code. Only available on MacOS.

 

[pshufd]

Emulate it like Rosetta 2 is doing on Apple Silicon right now.

It works fast enough to be an upgrade from any intel Macbook, pretty much.

I think that Rosetta 2 is doing translation, similar to Windows on ARM. The major benefit to translation is that you translate and save the code so that it's already translated if you need to run the same code again.

 

[throAU]

Probably because I'm (1) talking about GRAPHICS not the use of GPUs for computational purposes and (2) the software has already been written and works fine. I'm not going to rewrite it to because Apple wants to drop the API for their own convenience. Especially industry-standard NASA codes.

Metal is irrelevant to me. YMMV. At least as far as writing my own code. Only available on MacOS.

Then use Vulkan. It is far more performant than OpenGL on linux. You are leaving a heap of performance on the table.

 

[TiggrToo]

Then use Vulkan. It is far more performant than OpenGL on linux. You are leaving a heap of performance on the table.

What, and loose the opportunity to complain?

 

[Ethosik]

I think that Rosetta 2 is doing translation, similar to Windows on ARM. The major benefit to translation is that you translate and save the code so that it's already translated if you need to run the same code again.

Does anyone know the Windows on ARM performance hit for some of the big game titles? And how well does it handle the very old games like Direct X 8 or 9 titles I can still run on Windows 11?

 

[TiggrToo]

Does anyone know the Windows on ARM performance hit for some of the big game titles? And how well does it handle the very old games like Direct X 8 or 9 titles I can still run on Windows 11?

You can't run Windows natively on an M1. The only option is to run Windows 11 as a VM. That being the case, Rosetta 2 doesn't factor into it.

 

[pshufd]

Does anyone know the Windows on ARM performance hit for some of the big game titles? And how well does it handle the very old games like Direct X 8 or 9 titles I can still run on Windows 11?

There is a thread in this forum about a few people that have it working. You're basically running Windows on Arm in an Apple Silicon VM and Microsoft's version of Rosetta 2 is doing the translation of x86 code to run on ARM. So you take the performance hit of running in a VM and of running via translation.

 

[jjcs]

Then use Vulkan. It is far more performant than OpenGL on linux. You are leaving a heap of performance on the table.

(1) requires a rewrite for no real benefit
(2) for graphics that doesn't involve anything like a shader?
(3) not really, no.

None of this makes sense.

 

[jjcs]

What, and loose the opportunity to complain?

I'd be interested in the hardware if a fully-supported Linux version were available instead of MacOS. I suppose that offends certain people's religion. We'll just continue to not even consider Apple products for work purposes. Nice home computer, though....

 

[TiggrToo]

You want tools rewritten in a newer API for no justifiable reason? You pay for it/spend the time. I'm sure plenty of users would appreciate your donation. I swear many of you have a distorted view of software development. Either non-programmer-at all or too CS-centric.

I'd be interested in the hardware if a fully-supported Linux version were available instead of MacOS. I suppose that offends certain people's religion. We'll just continue to not even consider Apple products for work purposes. Nice home computer, though....

Since when was depreciation of APIs "no valid reason".

Welcome to my world. I'm always have to make changes because a vendor suddenly decided to drop an interface etc.

I also never went to college so nothing about Computer science. I do however run a team and have to answer to the executives. We're doing more work with less people and we do so by finding better ways to do things like tightening up the CI/CD process at every turn.

 

[jjcs]

Since when was depreciation of APIs "no valid reason".

Welcome to my world. I'm always have to make changes because a vendor suddenly decided to drop an interface etc.

I also never went to college so nothing about Computer science. I do however run a team and have to answer to the executives. We're doing more work with less people and we do so by finding better ways to do things and tighten up the CI/CD process at every turn.

(1) No valid reason to rewrite older applications just because ONE vendor wants to drop support for industry-standard libraries.
(2) I'd just switch vendors.
(3) This is spending time that no one is willing to pay for to rewrite industry standard tools. Easier just to use Linux, where there is no push to deprecate useful libraries. MacOS gives no advantage sufficient to make it worth it. None. Zilch. Hardware is nice at the desktop level, though.

 

[TiggrToo]

(1) requires a rewrite for no real benefit
(2) for graphics that doesn't involve anything like a shader?
(3) not really, no.

None of this makes sense.

If you can't handle the heat, then get out the kitchen.

I've been doing this for over 36 years now - it's never been easy. Sounds like you'd rather complain than do.

I've fired folk for less.

 

[TiggrToo]

(1) No valid reason to rewrite older applications just because ONE vendor wants to drop support for industry-standard libraries.
(2) I'd just switch vendors.
(3) This is spending time that no one is willing to pay for to rewrite industry standard tools. Easier just to use Linux, where there is no push to deprecate useful libraries. MacOS gives no advantage sufficient to make it worth it. None. Zilch. Hardware is nice at the desktop level, though.

We had a vendor who, with zero warning, changed functionality of their backend over Christmas one week.

We worked damn hard, came up with ways to get past the issues in the short term then when we got back to work after the break, focused on resting the changes while management tackled the vendor.

Sure it was painful and annoying. We still managed it though.

We get paid 6 figures to do a good job when times get tough. live with it. Apple ain't changing just for you.

Enjoy rewriting your code on a totally different platform.

 

[jjcs]

If you can't handle the heat, then get out the kitchen.

I've been doing this for over 36 years now - it's never been easy. Sounds like you'd rather complain than do.

I've fired folk for less.

(1) makes no sense in this context.
(2) that's nice. I'd rather get my work done than waste time rewriting things because Apple wants to drop something for marketing/walled garden purposes.
(3) I'd never hire you in the first place, so there's that.

So, nice enough home computer is as far as it goes for me. YMMV and all.

 

[cmaier]

I think that Rosetta 2 is doing translation, similar to Windows on ARM. The major benefit to translation is that you translate and save the code so that it's already translated if you need to run the same code again.c

Correct. Almost all code is statically-translated the first time you run an x86 app, and the translated binary is stored. And a lot of code in most apps is actually executing SDKs, and those are already part of the OS as Arm-native and fully optimized.

 

[TiggrToo]

(1) makes no sense in this context.
(2) that's nice. I'd rather get my work done than waste time rewriting things because Apple wants to drop something for marketing/walled garden purposes.
(3) I'd never hire you in the first place, so there's that.

So, nice enough home computer is as far as it goes for me. YMMV and all.

Actually it does make sense.

Those that can, do.

Those that can't, complain.

 

[jjcs]

Enjoy rewriting your code on a totally different platform.

Which would be? The whole point is that I'm NOT willing to rewrite every single graphical tool I use for research to target Metal - something only available on a single platform. Gets in the way of getting work done. I don't develop or support software to sell. I develop and/or use software in support of my research.

 

[jjcs]

Actually it does make sense.

Those that can, do.

Those that can't, complain.

Have to have a reason to "do" that would be justified to expend the resources. Some write software as the product, some write software to solve a problem that is the product.

So, I'd rather focus on what makes me a living rather than wasting time trying to make MacOS work for me. So, I'd rather have the hardware without their OS. Since that isn't an option, it's just a nice home computer and little more to me.

 

[TiggrToo]

Which would be? The whole point is that I'm NOT willing to rewrite every single graphical tool I use for research to target Metal - something only available on a single platform. Gets in the way of getting work done. I don't develop or support software to sell. I develop and/or use software in support of my research.

Well, deal with it then. How far have your complaints got you so far?

If you were looking for sympathy then you don't seem to be getting it.

Apple told us way back in 2018 that they were depreciating OpenGL. Even before then they never fully embraced it.

Why on earth are we now in 2022 hearing about how hard life must be for you as a result?

Adapt and change. It's what everyone else does.

 

[jjcs]

Well, deal with it then. How far have your complaints got you so far?

If you were looking for sympathy then you don't seem to be getting it.

Apple told us way back in 2018 that they were depreciating OpenGL. Even before then they never fully embraced it.

Why on earth are we now in 2022 hearing about how hard life must be for you as a result?

Adapt and change. It's what everyone else does.

I said I wanted to buy the hardware without the OS, since I preferred Linux. That seems to have hit a nerve with some of you more fanatical Apple fans. I don't recall asking for "sympathy". OpenGL support is merely one of the reasons I'd rather have their hardware without their software. At least for anything not a home computer.

"Adapting" will just be ditching them entirely. Won't buy another one and will never suggest we do so at work. Not unless I can ditch MacOS and still have good driver support. Not that professional use outside "pro" video and photography is a large market for them, so they won't notice or care. The days of them marketing to the science and engineering community are quite over, anyway.

 

[Ethosik]

You can't run Windows natively on an M1. The only option is to run Windows 11 as a VM. That being the case, Rosetta 2 doesn't factor into it.

Sorry I should be clear here. I am not talking about running it on the Apple systems. Just in general Windows on ARM and how it handles gaming and how much of a performance hit it is. On non-apple hardware.

 

[TiggrToo]

I said I wanted to buy the hardware without the OS, since I preferred Linux

You can.

Not Apple's fault there isn't a vendor out there with a fully viable Unix distro yet.

Apple never sold the M1 as being used with anything other than MacOS. So it's not up to them to help anyone else out.

And as for this nonsense about Apme (in your eyes) having no reason to depreciate OpenGL: they had a huge bloody good reason: The same reason they deprecated x86 32 bit functionality.

It's called M1 Arm.

 

[jjcs]

And as for this nonsense about Apme (in your eyes) having no reason to depreciate OpenGL: they had a huge bloody good reason: The same reason they deprecated x86 32 bit functionality.

It's called M1 Arm.

They have a reason. Same reason Rosetta 2 isn't likely going to be available in MacOS forever. Code support costs money.

What does the M1 chip have to do with a graphics API and drivers? You do realize that OpenGL is currently supported on the M1, right? "Deprecated" means "could be dropped at any time", not "immediately dropped". Only reason to do so is to reduce the codebase they have to support. So, for their convenience, not the customer's.

I'll say this one more time: I'd like their hardware without their software and I have reasons for that and have stated them when asked. I realize that somehow offends you or something, but I don't really care.

 

[TiggrToo]

They have a reason. Same reason Rosetta 2 isn't likely going to be available in MacOS forever. Code support costs money.

What does the M1 chip have to do with a graphics API and drivers? You do realize that OpenGL is currently supported on the M1, right? "Deprecated" means "could be dropped at any time", not "immediately dropped". Only reason to do so is to reduce the codebase they have to support. So, for their convenience, not the customer's.

I'll say this one more time: I'd like their hardware without their software and I have reasons for that and have stated them when asked. I realize that somehow offends you or something, but I don't really care.

It doesn't offend me and you do apparently care.

And now you've gone from no reason to a financial reason. Why should Apple be on the financial hook to make you personally happy?

You had notice of deprecation for nearly 4 years now. Deal with it.

 

[robco74]

If you are a gamer, or need to run abandonware, macOS is not the platform for you.