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What is happening? Justice and the rule of law prevailing? Good for Masimo.

They clearly state that an oxygen monitor is only useful in continuous read-out. That makes sense to me, its not like you can "feel" low oxygen levels and then go and measure it; its just a gimmick unless its monitored continuously.
 
Edited to add: I think everything I said here is technically correct as speculation for the W1 Sport that BaldiMac linked to, but I had completely missed that Masimo has a separate W1 Medical model slated for release in "early 2024" that is explicitly FDA approved as a medical device, and is what the article is linking to and talking about. So everything in the article is correct as it applies to that W1 Medical watch (or will be once it's released), it's just easy to get confused because of them both being called "W1."

Masimo's own website for the W1 says that it oxygen sensor is "Not intended for use as a medical device." So which is it? Is the article wrong or is Masimo lying or is their website wrong?
That's an interesting point; reading through Masimo's page, it's really unclear what the W1 itself exactly is.

It's clear that it includes a module ("Masimo SET") that is used in hospitals medically, and is itself FDA approved, but it sounds very much like the watch itself is not, and cannot legally be used for any of those things:

Masimo SET® is the primary pulse oximetry technology used at 9 of the top 10 hospitals as ranked in the 2022-23 U.S. News & World Report Best Hospitals Honor Roll.
For Masimo W1 Sport, we have adapted monitoring technology based on Masimo SET® pulse oximetry to optimize the capture of health data on the wrist.
Sport now includes FDA-cleared module for SpO2 and pulse rate.

Basically, the W1 uses high-end pulse-oximitry module for the sensor, but that doesn't mean the watch itself is FDA approved for any medical use. It could be, but they're definitely not advertising that anywhere I see.

It's like saying that a car has tires approved for GT Rally racing; the tires are indeed nice, and probably better than other tires for their intended use, but that doesn't mean that the car itself is approved for professional racing. Or that a motherboard has Mil-Spec capacitors in it--they are indeed high-quality and approved capacitors, but that doesn't make the whole computer Mil-Spec, or even guarantee that it works well.
 
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I would guess it may not be approved for use in a “Medical Facility?” FDA approval can be a device for home use.
The article says "it can be used as a medical device in hospitals, clinics, and at home."
The website says "Not intended for use as a medical device."

So my question is: Is the article wrong, is the website wrong, or did Masimo lie as the source for the article."
 
Should they not protect their intellectual property? The tech they built since 1990s?

That's their bread and butter product. And its been saving millions of lives in hospitals (like 90% of them around the world)
Most of their valid patents have run out or are running out, and the ones they are saying Apple used are getting tossed one by one by the courts. The CEO makes a lot of stupid comments in public when he should be keeping his mouth closed seeing how this on going litigation and he can only hurt himself even more than he already has. Statements like this will be brought up in court.
 
The issue is still pending litigation, how is that completely overlooked here? It is currently in the appeals process. When an issue is pending litigation any lawyer worth their billable hours would advise their client to stay quiet.

Not saying this will mirror the Epic lawsuit but it was telling that one side remained quiet while the other side CEO was going on a PR press spin trying to win the public relation battle. Litigation is won in the court room not the media rounds.
 
That's an interesting point; reading through Masimo's page, it's really unclear what the W1 itself exactly is.

It's clear that it includes a module ("Masimo SET") that is used in hospitals medically, and is itself FDA approved, but it sounds very much like the watch itself is not, and cannot legally be used for any of those things:





Basically, the W1 uses high-end pulse-oximitry module for the sensor, but that doesn't mean the watch itself is FDA approved for any medical use. It could be, but they're definitely not advertising that anywhere I see.

It's like saying that a car has tires approved for GT Rally racing; the tires are indeed nice, and probably better than other tires for their intended use, but that doesn't mean that the car itself is approved for professional racing. Or that a motherboard has Mil-Spec capacitors in it--they are indeed high-quality and approved capacitors, but that doesn't make the whole computer Mil-Spec, or even guarantee that it works well.
Nope. It specifically says the oxygen sensor is not intended for medical use.
 
I've read up quite a bit on these health sensor gimmicks in a variety of products, not just the Apple Watch. I bought a Garmin Fenix 7 Pro recently and many of its readings varied wildly from my Apple Watch. I read a lot on these algorithms and how unreliable they are. In the end, I returned the Garmin and decided it's a lot more mentally healthy to not use such products versus constantly obsessing over metrics that are likely inaccurate in the first place.

Oh you've read up? Then you know how its easier to get consistent readings from a fingertip then a wrist (blood vessels closer to the skin, less hair to obstruct the light), you know that even FDA approved devices can be inaccurate due to tattoos, sweat, dirt, grease, fingernail polish, virtually anything that changes the refractive index). So you understand to get accurate readings you have to pay attention to these things? And you know that everyone that reports problems also pays attention to these things?

Apple doesn't claim the O2 sensor to be a medical device. It should be clear to anyone that uses it that to get accurate readings from it you have to really pay attention to a multitude of factors. But some people expect maximum gain with minimum input and in the case of the AW o2 sensor, thats going to be a problem. If I am concerned about a reading, I repeat it several times. But it does give me useful information. And I do correlate that with a FDA approved device. Once I am sure I am reasonably sweat free and clean :)
 
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Masimo's own website for the W1 says that it oxygen sensor is "Not intended for use as a medical device." So which is it? Is the article wrong or is Masimo lying or is their website wrong?

According to the November 2023 press release (link below):

"Masimo today announced that the Masimo W1 medical watch has received FDA 510(k) clearance for over-the-counter (OTC) and prescription use (Rx). Masimo W1 is the first FDA-cleared watch to provide continuous real-time oxygen saturation (SpO2) and pulse rate (PR) for OTC and Rx use. The FDA clearance expands the indications for the Masimo W1 in the U.S. as a medical device for use by adults in hospitals, clinics, long-term care facilities, and in the home."

 
Glad I got the watch with blood oxygen measurement before Apple was forced to stop shipping it to where I live. I think it is accurate. I have a dedicated pulse oxygen measurement machine that cost $150, that I got during Covid. It delivers about the same numbers as the watch. So, I think this guy is basically full of it.
 
Most of their valid patents have run out or are running out, and the ones they are saying Apple used are getting tossed one by one by the courts. The CEO makes a lot of stupid comments in public when he should be keeping his mouth closed seeing how this on going litigation and he can only hurt himself even more than he already has. Statements like this will be brought up in court.
The CEO had his lawyers file a rambling declaration with the court last week, and Apple called him out on it. Not sure what the strategy is here, maybe client not taking attorney's advice.
 
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Interesting statement. I've mostly been on Masimo's side on this. If Apple is indeed infringing on Masimo patents, then they should either figured out a deal to license the patents form Masimo, or come up with their own technology. However, Kiani's statement about the Apple Watch SpO2 sensor being useless means either Masimo's technology is in and of itself useless, Apple isn't actually implementing the technology they claim Apple, or Kiani is just angry at Apple (understandably) and is lashing out in a far from productive matter.

Regardless, I hope this gets figured out on some level. While the SpO2 sensor isn't the main selling point of an Apple Watch, it's a really nice feature to have.
 
The CEO had his lawyers file a rambling declaration with the court last week, and Apple called him out on it. Not sure what the strategy is here, maybe client not taking attorney's advice.

He was probably banking on Apple licensing the tech from him, and is now upset that Apple isn’t biting.

Nobody likes having their carefully stacked deck of cards getting upset.
 
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I'm just curious if the watches that are sold after this date with the new software will be able to be restored to software that, say, my Apple Watch Ultra 2 is currently using which works properly. You would think they would need a hardware marker or something. Otherwise, how can Apple tell which watches were sold yesterday and which watches were sold today when they were banned? I get they probably got an OTA update at the Apple Store, but do you think Apple would care to go to lengths to block users from doing this? Doubt it.
 
According to the November 2023 press release (link below):

"Masimo today announced that the Masimo W1 medical watch has received FDA 510(k) clearance for over-the-counter (OTC) and prescription use (Rx). Masimo W1 is the first FDA-cleared watch to provide continuous real-time oxygen saturation (SpO2) and pulse rate (PR) for OTC and Rx use. The FDA clearance expands the indications for the Masimo W1 in the U.S. as a medical device for use by adults in hospitals, clinics, long-term care facilities, and in the home."

That would imply that their website has been wrong for the last 2 months... or this press release is cleverly worded to imply the oxygen sensor is approved for medical use even though it is not.
 
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Just anectdotal, but when I got covid the first time around and it was hitting me hard, i was monitoring my blood oxygen on the watch just out of curiosity. When I finally went to hopsital the readings were bang on.
Not COVID for me, but I had a really nasty cold this week. Very bad congestion to the point that it was difficult to speak or breathe. My blood oxygen went down to 84%. Who knows how accurate the number is, but I don't think it's a coincidence that it went that low when I've been sick.

On the other hand, I'm looking at past data and had a reading of 68% once. So I'll take that with a grain of salt lol. I think I was sick around that time, but if it was 68%, I'd be dead lol
 
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Glad I got the watch with blood oxygen measurement before Apple was forced to stop shipping it to where I live. I think it is accurate. I have a dedicated pulse oxygen measurement machine that cost $150, that I got during Covid. It delivers about the same numbers as the watch.

I suspect the issue is not accuracy but usefulness. Spot checks could miss periods f low O2 that might indicate a problem while continuous monitoring would show peaks, valleys, and trends.

So, I think this guy is basically full of it.

Yeas, I suspect that was well. He violated the first thing I learned about lawsuits: If you are involved in one shut and let the lawyers do the talking.
 
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He was probably banking on Apple listening the tech from him, and is now upset that Apple isn’t biting.

Nobody likes having their carefully stacked deck of cards getting upset.
Not doing himself any favors by exceeding the court's word count limit and trying to introduce unadmitted evidence into the record...
 
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I was going to buy an expensive B&W 800 series speaker last summer, but they announced a "Signature' version that was 30%+ more on top of an already high price. The Signature has very few engineering changes for the massive price increase. It seemed like a money grab, since B&W has been around for 50+ years. It just seemed odd and the price increase way out-of-line, so cancelled my order.

Why relevance does this have to the watch? Later I found out Masimo had bought B&W (along with other famous audio brands) around 2020. Ah, I thought they needed more money to fund the new audio company. But not on my nickel. And I wondered about the stability of the company, even then. And now I know that need the money for pay the huge legal bills too along with funding their new business attempts. Wonder if all will pan out for them? BTW, I have the Ultra 1 with it inaccurate Masimo technology. LOL
 
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Nice try, Masimo. On those few instances when I've found myself in the hospital, the watch reports the same value as the finger monitor exactly, or within 1% in either direction.
 
Edited to add: Everything I said here applies in theory, and may apply to the W1 sport, but I had completely missed that Masimo has a separate, not-yet-released W1 Medical watch that has in fact been FDA approved as a medical device, which is very different from saying that it has a FDA cleared SpO2 module.

Nope. It specifically says the oxygen sensor is not intended for medical use.

Perhaps we're saying the same thing but parsing it differently, but their advertisement, stated quite explicitly, is that the oxygen sensor module is "FDA cleared":
Sport now includes FDA-cleared module for SpO2 and pulse rate

Down in the fine print, it says explicitly that the W1 as a device is not for medical use:
Masimo W1 Sport is not a medical device.

"FDA cleared" is not quite the same thing as "intended for use as a medical device", but it's pretty close--the FDA has, if Masimo is not outright lying, determined that the module in the W1 is acceptable to use medically for measuring blood oxygen and pulse.

The difference, and the point I was trying to make, is that it doesn't matter whether the module is FDA cleared and even if that exact same sensor module is used in things that are approved medical devices--the point is that the device itself isn't FDA cleared, and there's no guarantee it's any good even if the oxygen detection technology is.

It's quite possible that when you take a module that's normally built into a clinical pulse oximetry device that clips onto a finger and integrate it into a sport watch, it just doesn't work well. It might, and maybe they'll submit this thing for FDA approval, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised if they didn't even try because they know it doesn't work that well.

One caveat is that it's not explicit as far as I can tell whether "module" in this context means the whole sensor system, just the actual sensor part, or just the part that processes the signals. So it's entirely possible that they've got medical-grade FDA-approved algorithms running on a processing module attached to a crappy wrist sensor, or a medical-grade FDA-approved optical module attached to a crappy signal processor, or even that both are medical-grade and FDA-approved.

Though even the last of the three wouldn't guarantee it works well when used on a wrist and/or without the rest of whatever a medically approved machine does.
 
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That would imply that their website has been wrong for the last 2 months... or this press release is cleverly worded to imply the oxygen sensor is approved for medical use even though it is not.
In the white paper, Masimo says that it is a health and wellness device, pending the so called 510(k) clearance. So it seems like the website is wrong.
"
The Masimo W1 watch is currently limited to health and wellness applications, as 510(k) medical device clearance is pending."
 
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He was probably banking on Apple licensing the tech from him, and is now upset that Apple isn’t biting.

Nobody likes having their carefully stacked deck of cards getting upset.

I don’t believe Maximo’s intent was ever Licensing. I’m of the opinion from what I’ve read that the CEO is really targeting being the Sensor Hardware Supplier for the AW.

If I were a Masimo Shareholder I would be voicing my opinion to drop those aspirations and negotiate a Licensing Agreement with Apple. I’d be willing to wager Apple would be more engaging.
 
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