Apple Corps, thank you I would call Apple first thing in the morning.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
MBP Return or not return(pic included)
- Thread starter Grumman
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Apple Corps, thank you I would call Apple first thing in the morning.
I guess you have to decide whether it's worth your time and effort in trying to get it resolved. My upper screen warp is worse, and my lower case actually developed a droop on the DVD drive side. This could be the result of spending a long time on the iCurve stand, but none of my other laptops suffer from deformation problems despite getting the same treatment.
The Dell Inspiron 9400 I passed to a colleague still latches shut perfectly level despite being on an even more minimalist stand than the iCurve for most of it's life, and a two+ year old Sony I recently disposed of still snapped shut (latchless) with perfectly straight lines, not even a mm's deflection when closed and on a flat surface.
Apple has lofty design goals but alas, they don't seem to have the access to build quality to be able to repeat the designer's wishes reliably. What they should be doing is to design and engineer for the build quality they do have access to, instead of releasing insufficiently developed products to market and then fixing it 'on the fly'.
The Dell Inspiron 9400 I passed to a colleague still latches shut perfectly level despite being on an even more minimalist stand than the iCurve for most of it's life, and a two+ year old Sony I recently disposed of still snapped shut (latchless) with perfectly straight lines, not even a mm's deflection when closed and on a flat surface.
Apple has lofty design goals but alas, they don't seem to have the access to build quality to be able to repeat the designer's wishes reliably. What they should be doing is to design and engineer for the build quality they do have access to, instead of releasing insufficiently developed products to market and then fixing it 'on the fly'.
The gap on your machine is certainly larger than my MBP (CD), but I have to agree that aesthetic issues probably won't get addressed by Apple (or aren't worth it; the pixel situation is different, though). Between our expectations of Apple products and the price we pay for them, we are really looking for a 'perfect' experience from the design to the funcitonality of the machine. That's why I try to drop my laptop as fast as possible when I get one. That, coupled with putting it in a bag lined with steel wool usually gets me to stop worrying about the aesthetics and just getting to work. 
I certainly won't bother for a few problem because I would get a worse MBP, as I stated before, I DO have some issues, but the only one that bothers me is the poor wi-fi reception.... but I have to add that I "borrow" that, son little complain (you know, I CAN'T ask for the DNS or other codes...)
Finally, what is a dead pixel? they go to heaven too?
Finally, what is a dead pixel? they go to heaven too?
I have kept my 15" PB and 15" MBP on iCurve and have not noticed the case warpage from this set up. I think 15" and 17" MBP/PB's casing tend to flex more than my 12" PB. I think it is because of the larger flat surface of thin aluminum sheet compared to relatively smaller flat surface of 12" model.
I think plastic cases are much easier to mold to perfection than metal cases.
Plastic has a better tendency to maintain its shape.
Was the dell or sony made of aluminum? Not to mention it has metal reinforcement inside the plastic.
i'll post some pics when i get home from work but that gap is normal Its the same on both my C2D MBP and my G3 ibook.
I think you worrying over nuthing. Btw the key board is not flush with the palm rests its a little higher so personaly i would be happy theres a 2 or 3 mm "gap"
I think you worrying over nuthing. Btw the key board is not flush with the palm rests its a little higher so personaly i would be happy theres a 2 or 3 mm "gap"
Plastic has a better tendency to maintain its shape.
Was the dell or sony made of aluminum? Not to mention it has metal reinforcement inside the plastic.
All laptops have a subframe which can be steel, magnesium or something else - including the Apples. The problem as I see it is that Apple's designers have come up with something that requires a really top-notch level of build quality to carry off successfully, and the ODM's can't hit that all the time. If Apple designed something which requires less exacting fit & finish to look right (or they somehow ODM the MBP's to Sony, who only ODM their low-end laptops as far as I'm aware), then they would be getting less complaints.
So there's two components to this issue - first is quality. The Sony laptop would, like the Apple, look wrong if it was built like the MBP - but it's built right as Sony build all their top models in-house.
Then there's designing for the construction quality you have access to: The Dell 9400 for example already has a gap so even if there was a tolerance variation of even a couple of mm's you aren't going to notice it at all. If you also look on lower-end Latitudes you'll see that some of them have a half-shroud over the top of the screen so that it covers any gaps. I'm fairly sure my 9400 was probably a rarer example of a perfectly straight screen because my XPS M1710 is off by about a mm (although it's still less off than my MBP) - but once again, you don't notice it unless you look much harder than the Apple because the Dell is most certainly designed from the outset with ODM quality variations in mind.
I dont see that there is any design or build fault from what the first post was about its a normal gap created by 2 rubber feet ( that can been seen the the pictures ) to stop the metal surfaces from creating friction.
That comes back to designing for the standard of fit & finish at your disposal. The design of the MBP is the reason why people notice any kind of uneven gap. My Dell XPS M1710 is built with as close/loose (delete as applicable) a tolerance as the first-posted photo but there's already a gap in the design of where the screen latches down which means that even if it's slightly off like the MBP in the photo, you'll never notice it.
If I may detour into a car analogy for a second, while both may be built to the same tolerances by Ford workers in the end, Dell designers obviously assume Ford workers will be assembling the laptop and design accordingly - whereas Apple designers for some reason assume Aston Martin will be building them.
If I may detour into a car analogy for a second, while both may be built to the same tolerances by Ford workers in the end, Dell designers obviously assume Ford workers will be assembling the laptop and design accordingly - whereas Apple designers for some reason assume Aston Martin will be building them.
true, sony does make good quality products...i was considering either a ibm/lenovo or sony vaio before the mbp.
You want to return a perfectly good laptop because of a few millimetres of *gap*?. Duuuuude!. People (myself included sometimes) are starting to expect waaaaaay too much from Apple. Like someone said "my MBP has dust on the screen, should i return it?". Thats how ridiculous it is becoming.
Enjoy the laptop and stop being anal. No offence.
Enjoy the laptop and stop being anal. No offence.
When it's among the most expensive laptops around and when all the laptops which offer the same performance at around the same price are built to higher tolerances, hell yeah. But it's up to you whether you want to deal with the hassle of it or not.
Guys, he has like 10 dead pixels...is everybody just ignoring that!!!
Or am I in with the lunatics who think that this is a defect
Well, here is other manufacturer standards:
Laptop Brand / OEM (Bright Dots,Dark Dots,Total Dots)
Dell (7,7,7)
IBM (5-11,5-16,9-16)
HP/Compaq (7,7,9)
LG.Philips (6,6,10)
Sharp (7,7,N/A)
ScreenTek (3,3,3)
I've talked with Apple and they state 4-5 dead/stuck pixels is the minimum with some exceptions.
According to ISO 13406-2 (the standard which most manufacturers refer to):
LCD displays are made up of a set number of pixels and each pixel is made from 3 sub-pixels - one Red, one Blue and one Green. Every sub-pixel is addressed by its own transistor and so the manufacture of a glass substrate is very complex. Due to the nature of the manufacturing process, occasional defects can occur. Pixel defects or failures cannot be fixed or repaired and can happen at any stage in the LCD’s life. To regulate the acceptability of defects and to protect the end user, ISO have created a standard for manufacturers to follow. ISO 13406-2 recommends how many defaults are acceptable in a display before it should be replaced, within the terms & conditions of warranty. All reputable manufacturers conform to and support the ISO 13406-2 standard.
Pixel defaults (for Class II LCD panels)
The table below shows the allowable number of malfunctioning sub-pixels that are acceptable, depending on the native resolution of the LCD and allowing for 5 malfunctioning sub-pixels per million pixels.
(Native Resolution--No. of Pixels--No. of Million Pixels--Allowable Defects)
1024 x 768--786,432--0.79--4
1280 x 1024--1,310,720--1.31--7
1600 x 1200--1,920,000--1.92--10
2048 x 1536--3,145,728--3.15--16
Most, if not all, LCD monitor for commercial purpose are fit in Class II. Class I is for military, hospital or other critical applications.
So, for the MacBook that is "7" and for the MBP that is "8-9". So this is the ISO, so this is the bare allowable. I would expect Apple to exceed these standards.
Grumman stated he had 1 dead and 5-8 stuck. That means he has 6-9 bad pixels. I think he has every right to return it and I bet Apple would agree with me.
Or am I in with the lunatics who think that this is a defect
Well, here is other manufacturer standards:
Laptop Brand / OEM (Bright Dots,Dark Dots,Total Dots)
Dell (7,7,7)
IBM (5-11,5-16,9-16)
HP/Compaq (7,7,9)
LG.Philips (6,6,10)
Sharp (7,7,N/A)
ScreenTek (3,3,3)
I've talked with Apple and they state 4-5 dead/stuck pixels is the minimum with some exceptions.
According to ISO 13406-2 (the standard which most manufacturers refer to):
LCD displays are made up of a set number of pixels and each pixel is made from 3 sub-pixels - one Red, one Blue and one Green. Every sub-pixel is addressed by its own transistor and so the manufacture of a glass substrate is very complex. Due to the nature of the manufacturing process, occasional defects can occur. Pixel defects or failures cannot be fixed or repaired and can happen at any stage in the LCD’s life. To regulate the acceptability of defects and to protect the end user, ISO have created a standard for manufacturers to follow. ISO 13406-2 recommends how many defaults are acceptable in a display before it should be replaced, within the terms & conditions of warranty. All reputable manufacturers conform to and support the ISO 13406-2 standard.
Pixel defaults (for Class II LCD panels)
The table below shows the allowable number of malfunctioning sub-pixels that are acceptable, depending on the native resolution of the LCD and allowing for 5 malfunctioning sub-pixels per million pixels.
(Native Resolution--No. of Pixels--No. of Million Pixels--Allowable Defects)
1024 x 768--786,432--0.79--4
1280 x 1024--1,310,720--1.31--7
1600 x 1200--1,920,000--1.92--10
2048 x 1536--3,145,728--3.15--16
Most, if not all, LCD monitor for commercial purpose are fit in Class II. Class I is for military, hospital or other critical applications.
So, for the MacBook that is "7" and for the MBP that is "8-9". So this is the ISO, so this is the bare allowable. I would expect Apple to exceed these standards.
Grumman stated he had 1 dead and 5-8 stuck. That means he has 6-9 bad pixels. I think he has every right to return it and I bet Apple would agree with me.
I have the same gap. It is as big, if not bigger.
I am not one who constantly thinks "wow if I paid so much for this thing it has to be perfect", so it doesn't bother me. On a side note have you noticed the little screws along the sides of the MBP are not all aligned perfectly? They do not all share the same orientation and are screwed in with varying degrees.
Now let's hear the "omg, not precision engineered for my $2000?!" whines
This thing is made of aluminium, the same metal as drink cans and casing for nuclear missiles. It is soft m'kay?
I am not one who constantly thinks "wow if I paid so much for this thing it has to be perfect", so it doesn't bother me. On a side note have you noticed the little screws along the sides of the MBP are not all aligned perfectly? They do not all share the same orientation and are screwed in with varying degrees.
Now let's hear the "omg, not precision engineered for my $2000?!" whines
This thing is made of aluminium, the same metal as drink cans and casing for nuclear missiles. It is soft m'kay?
I have the same gap. It is as big, if not bigger.
I am not one who constantly thinks "wow if I paid so much for this thing it has to be perfect", so it doesn't bother me. On a side note have you noticed the little screws along the sides of the MBP are not all aligned perfectly? They do not all share the same orientation and are screwed in with varying degrees.
Now let's hear the "omg, not precision engineered for my $2000?!" whines
This thing is made of aluminium, the same metal as drink cans and casing for nuclear missiles. It is soft m'kay?
<<Applause>>
On a side note, I just noticed a small warp of the case of my 15" 2.33 MBP above the ExpressCard slot. It warps out just a little (about 1mm), but you know what? I don't give a sh*t. The thing works just as fast and just as well, and looks just as good as it did when I got it. I paid $2000 for a computer to run OS X and Final Cut Studio...not to sit in a display case to be visually picked apart by Mac fanboys, computer geeks, and all others who think their $2k buys them perfection.
On this note, I heard your "good rule of thumb" once, it was from a documentary made in the 1930's and it was in German. Buy a Dell. You don't spend money on Apple to get the quality, you spend money on Apple to use OS X. The quality is just a bonus, and far surpasses other manufacturers, even with your stupid lid gap.
Exactly. Similarly, for a while the screen bugged me, but putting it all back into perspective. It is not like the CEO of Leveno will have guilty pangs and think about his immaterial soul for using a worse grade of LCDs into the Thinkpads which I bought before (for more money).
Macs are a bit more expensive, yes, but compare the experience of unpacking a PC and a Mac. A $2500 Thinkpad comes in a brown box for god's sake, what kind of experience is that?! Fit and finish on Macs are also excellent. Sure there may be that little gap, but it will happen to all MBPs over time, so who cares?
It is like whining about how lousy a car is (yes, yet another lousy car analogy) because it will eventually have a dulled paint finishing and doors that don't close with the right "sound". So what? It is part and parcel of life.
Macs are a bit more expensive, yes, but compare the experience of unpacking a PC and a Mac. A $2500 Thinkpad comes in a brown box for god's sake, what kind of experience is that?! Fit and finish on Macs are also excellent. Sure there may be that little gap, but it will happen to all MBPs over time, so who cares?
It is like whining about how lousy a car is (yes, yet another lousy car analogy) because it will eventually have a dulled paint finishing and doors that don't close with the right "sound". So what? It is part and parcel of life.
These continued rants just crack me up. First, this 2.33ghz, 2gb, 160gb, 15 inch laptop is THE CHEAPEST professional laptop I've bought in ten years. So this whole premise that this Apple laptop is some sort of luxury item, made in China, that should be cosmetically perfect is just absurd. I'm not ripping China in any way either, I thank God for the affordability China has given us, but China isn't Germany or Italy when it comes to luxury goods and anyone who thinks so wouldn't know a luxury good from a hole in the ground. Your MBP has a gap? So what, does it leak water in the tub? Obviously you bought your computer as a status symbol and because you still aren't getting chicks you want to blame a cd thick gap for your...shortcomings. Unbelievable!
Well duh. I also remember paying upwards of eight grand for a 'laptop' but nowadays companies can design and build solid machines for less.
I don't know about the others, but I'm basing my comparisons on what else I can buy NOW. It's not about status symbols, it's about the market segment where Apple have placed themselves in, what they charge in comparison to other companies who seem to be able to more consistently build solid stuff these days, and perhaps above all as I mentioned above the design of the laptop bearing in mind the (as you yourself infer) middle-of-the-road, Dell-like build quality that Apple have access to these days. You don't design a case where any flaws in fit & alignment are readily apparent if you don't have access to extremely tight QC manufacturing.