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with this logic, you:

Will wait 5 minutes for boot-up
Will have stuttering screens
Will experience screen lag doing basically any task
Will experience destructive code from others
Will have the OS crash on a daily basis
Will have to augment the hardware from basic specs to be useful
Will have a hell of a time with re-boots
Will have thousands of annoying dialog boxes and pop-ups that don't help you

But I do agree with you, for a business individual in an enterprise environment the ABILITY to run desktop class applications and custom code would be a really big benefit and a major selling point to many.

Unfortunately, there are trade-offs to consider.

I can run anything... albeit painfully slow and unresponsive

--or--

I can run limited software and have a great user experience... but won't be as productive for business purposes.

Office 2007 runs perfect on my Dell Mini 9 with Windows 7(no stutters or performance issues). Boot ups are not a problem if they have sleep mode figured out and even if they don't my mini 9 boots in about 40 seconds. Performance is only an issue on entertainment apps. Most (not all) buisness apps work fine. And lets remember that usefulness in buisness is what propelled MS based OS's to the top of the heap.

There are also alot of vertical market software packages written for windows that alone would not be much to mention but together consitute alot of the apps run today in biusness. Apps for inventory and sales force that would benfit from the small foot print of a Slate.
 
As I sit here reading this thread on my iPad I think to myself "I bet on the right horse." I just didn't expect to have such overwhelming confirmation this soon!

And then there were three...
Now there are three companies capable of affecting the future of mobile devices: Apple, Google and HP. Perhaps Microsoft will claw it's way back on the list but for now they sit on the sidelines with the cancelled vaporware courier and the cancelled windows mobile os and the vaporware windows phone seven and their non-scalable desktop os that needs more CPU than Linux and osx combined just to get itself out of bed in the morning. What would make all this more interesting is if ms would announce a *nix based mobile device os. Then there might be four again, but for now I consider M$ on the sidelines in thus race.

Office 2007 runs perfect on my Dell Mini 9 with Windows 7(no stutters or performance issues). Boot ups are not a problem if they have sleep mode figured out and even if they don't my mini 9 boots in about 40 seconds. Performance is only an issue on entertainment apps. Most (not all) buisness apps work fine. And lets remember that usefulness in buisness is what propelled MS based OS's to the top of the heap.

There are also alot of vertical market software packages written for windows that alone would not be much to mention but together consitute alot of the apps run today in biusness. Apps for inventory and sales force that would benfit from the small foot print of a Slate.

Ok look, office 2007 blows chunks on my work-issued Dell notebook with 2 gig of ram so if I assume I get slightly better performance on my machine than you get on your mini, "just fine" means a system freeze of 15 to 90 seconds on opening any document? I should also admit that my experience may not be representative due to the IT schleps that force virus scans of documents even if I created them 10 minutes ago. Perhaps what we need are common task benchmarks so all this qualitative anecdotal stuff gets boiled down to statements like "boots in xx seconds" and "opens a 12meg doc file in yy seconds". But based on my experience with windows on my acer aspire one (before switching to Ubuntu), I find it hard to believe win 7 can perform "just fine" on a netbook or slate class device.
 
As I sit here reading this thread on my iPad I think to myself "I bet on the right horse." I just didn't expect to have such overwhelming confirmation this soon!

And then there were three...
Now there are three companies capable of affecting the future of mobile devices: Apple, Google and HP. Perhaps Microsoft will claw it's way back on the list but for now they sit on the sidelines with the cancelled vaporware courier and the cancelled windows mobile os and the vaporware windows phone seven and their non-scalable desktop os that needs more CPU than Linux and osx combined just to get itself out of bed in the morning. What would make all this more interesting is if ms would announce a *nix based mobile device os. Then there might be four again, but for now I consider M$ on the sidelines in thus race.

You do know that OSx is based on bsd unix right?
 
I think your analysis is WAY off.

The Slate really wasn't anything new, you could happily buy a tablet PC like this with full Windows operating system on it, albeit at a higher price point, for years and they don't shift.
The slate was a new form factor. Small, light, offering an enhanced touch interface and a much longer battery life and a much lower price point then in the past. I know alot of people who were jazzed for the Slate. Because it ran the applications they need it to run with out having to buy new ones. It also was not locked down like the iPad is, anyone could write apps for it because it's windows.

The only way HP got the Slate to the price point and form factor that they did was by giving it no guts at all. An Atom processor, integrated Intel graphics, 32Gb of storage (or 64Gb if you paid more + SD card) and most importantly 1Gb of memory with Windows 7? It would have choked badly on even moderate software and the battery life thing was cobblers too. 30Wh in a device like that is not going to give 5 hours once you start actually using it. Performance would have been terrible, it's a basic netbook spec without a keyboard (and that's backed up by the only hands-on review I ever saw, since removed from the web so it looks like it was legit).

It's the same old story from the crowd who complained about the iPad not running 'full' OS X really: what benefits do you get over the equivalent laptop and do they outweigh the compromises? I've never, not once, seen a really solid answer to that question and never ever an answer that would make good solid commercial sense if you were looking to shift hundreds of thousands of units (or more of course).
I can run MS Office, the gold standard for office productivity.
I can use ANY browser I want(Firefox/chrome/Opera/etc).
I can use Photoshop(albet older versions)
I can use the custom applications written inside my company
I can use Flash
I can run my companys accounting software
I can use Mathcad
I can run JAVA

I can run pretty much any application written for the Windows OS in the last 10 years, except games. And I can write my own. ALL with out Apples approval. No one tells me whats appropriate for my tablet, no one tells me wether I'm allowed to write software for my tablet, and no one tells me there's a life time limit of 2 Slates.

The reality is a GOOD real OS based pad would crush the iPad simpley because it could do so much more then the iPad because it was designed too. Was the Slate that product? Maybe not, but once the market gets rolling I'd say this is one Apple is not a shoe in to dominate long term. They haven't made a significant dent in the personal computer world since the Apple II.

No, it really really won't because, and this is the fundamental problem you've not addressed in your reply, the tablet form factor is WORSE for all existing productivity applications. I know I've banged on about this before but do you REALLY see yourself using... oh let's say Photoshop with a 9" touchscreen? How the hell are you going to use tool pallets designed for pinpoint precision with a finger? For that matter the 1024 x 600 screen would be struggling to accommodate that interface anyway, not enough vertical resolution. Not to mention Photoshop on an Atom processor, integrated Intel GPU and, oh yes, 1Gig of Ram wouldn't have exactly been a fun experience.

But, okay, Photoshop is maybe an unfair example here... what about Office? Again I'd say that screen resolution is going to make for a horrible experience and the ribbon really isn't finger friendly but you could probably use it. Except now you're doing productivity work on a touchscreen while having a keyboard pop up for text entry so you loose yet MORE screen space and are going to have a visible area no larger than a few lines in the worst case. How about fine grain control of things like table column widths, that could get deeply annoying with just finger control.

These are not issues that technology will overcome, these are fundamental user interface issues. A touch-driven tablet is such a vastly different beast from computers as we know them today they NEED software built around that interface. Anyone that thinks you can realistically use existing software on a 9" touchscreen with finger input hasn't sat down and thought it through, end of story. Let me put it this way... you say you have an iPhone right? How many times are you working on the keyboard and hit the wrong key? Those keys are larger than most UI elements would be on a desktop OS running at 1024 x 600 on a 10" screen. How frustrated are you going to be when you hit the wrong element and do something to your document you weren't intending to do?

What you are arguing for most of all is choice, and that's fine but that is NOT an argument for a full blown desktop OS with applications designed for keyboard and mouse input shoehorned into a tablet form factor and running on low-end hardware. If you want choice then for gods sake either spend more money and get a full-blown tablet just like those that have existed for years with a screen that twists around to give you the option of using it as a normal laptop when that's more appropriate or spend $550 on a cheap laptop, the experience will be infinitely better. If you want choice in an iPad-like tablet then wait for Android devices to come out. But saying a full OS would blow away the iPad JUST because you don't like the way Apple are going about it isn't a particularly convincing argument (oh, and if you don't think the current Smartphone revolution that the iPhone kicked off is a significant impact in the PC market... boy are you in for a shock).
 
with this logic, you:

Will wait 5 minutes for boot-up
Will have stuttering screens
Will experience screen lag doing basically any task
Will experience destructive code from others
Will have the OS crash on a daily basis
Will have to augment the hardware from basic specs to be useful
Will have a hell of a time with re-boots
Will have thousands of annoying dialog boxes and pop-ups that don't help you

But I do agree with you, for a business individual in an enterprise environment the ABILITY to run desktop class applications and custom code would be a really big benefit and a major selling point to many.

Unfortunately, there are trade-offs to consider.

I can run anything... albeit painfully slow and unresponsive

--or--

I can run limited software and have a great user experience... but won't be as productive for business purposes.


Well, I rather be able to do stuff slowly then not do them at all ;).
 
Yea. Just ignore Android. ;)

Really good Android tablets are still far enough away that I'll be enjoying my iPad for months before I'd have to decide if I want one. None of the currently available models are blowing anyone away. The Archos tablets had a 6 month headstart on the iPad and haven't done much in the market at all to gain any mainstream success. They probably sold more iPads in the first day than all the Archos models will sell combined.
 
Office 2007 runs perfect on my Dell Mini 9 with Windows 7(no stutters or performance issues). Boot ups are not a problem if they have sleep mode figured out and even if they don't my mini 9 boots in about 40 seconds. Performance is only an issue on entertainment apps. Most (not all) buisness apps work fine. And lets remember that usefulness in buisness is what propelled MS based OS's to the top of the heap.

Hmmm...

Yes, it was either their usefulness that propelled MS to the top of the heap, or more likely it was their shady and monopolistic "site license" agreements that basically prohibit any competitor's OS from being in the same room with DOS and/or Windows machines. If your business is getting a multiple user license deal from Microsoft and your premises were "audited" by MS and they find even one machine there running Mac OS, the deal is off, you've violated your TOU, costly punitive fines are imposed, etc.

Sort of atrocious and appalling like you were saying, don't you think? That's how they got to be #1, though! It certainly wasn't for making great products that work, more like mediocre ones that sorta work. Oh, and also locking out any competition with a possibly superior product.

In fact, in my opinion, Windows operating systems having a stranglehold on business has probably cost the U.S. alone untold billions of dollars in lost productivity over all these years. How many hours have office workers sat idle because their machine crashed or was slow to boot, or infected by viruses, etc.? A stable and secure OS is ultimately a real time saver, and time is money!
 
Well, I rather be able to do stuff slowly then not do them at all ;).

TOUCHE

One thing to keep in mind is the time for growth in a market, however. Over time, as the iPad form factor grows legs and iPhone OS 3.2 / 4.0 gains a user base, applications will be developed (over time) to accomplish most anything you would want or need (and then some). All this will be done using the Apple hardware spec, and will be developed to run smoothly and efficiently.

Unfortunately, with a windows based machine (low specced), developers probably won't dedicate any time to slimming down their software to work efficiently on said hardware. They are looking forward to what intel pulls out of their hat next... the more robust, power hungry/miserly multi core chip, with the expectation that it will run bloated software code FASTER. It is also the same with graphics.

So, the current blanks will ultimately be filled in for the iPad application base, but the MS program base will be leaving the "Slate" computers in the dust, looking for higher performance hardware to run off the shelf programs.

now, if HP can do a slate with WebOS, then let the games begin (as long as they set a roadmap for hardware specs and stick to it)
 
TOUCHE

One thing to keep in mind is the time for growth in a market, however. Over time, as the iPad form factor grows legs and iPhone OS 3.2 / 4.0 gains a user base, applications will be developed (over time) to accomplish most anything you would want or need (and then some). All this will be done using the Apple hardware spec, and will be developed to run smoothly and efficiently.

Unfortunately, with a windows based machine (low specced), developers probably won't dedicate any time to slimming down their software to work efficiently on said hardware. They are looking forward to what intel pulls out of their hat next... the more robust, power hungry/miserly multi core chip, with the expectation that it will run bloated software code FASTER. It is also the same with graphics.

So, the current blanks will ultimately be filled in for the iPad application base, but the MS program base will be leaving the "Slate" computers in the dust, looking for higher performance hardware to run off the shelf programs.

now, if HP can do a slate with WebOS, then let the games begin (as long as they set a roadmap for hardware specs and stick to it)


Yeah, something I REALLY need for a tablet would be some way to add nice looking equations to word documents, and save word documents to .pdf and then email them. And also a way to run MatLab on it. Matlab could be done via VNC or something to my MBP or so I guess (although slowly). But do you know of a iPad app that can write good looking equations in word documents? If that exist I might even get a iPad.
 
I wouldn't rather do things slowly on a tablet than not do them at all on a tablet.

Not that I'd object in theory to having the option, but if it's a question of how products are designed and priced, I see almost zero value in being able to do something painfully, on a device that is intended to be very easy to use.

For example - if you were to take an iPad, and re-engineer it so that it was a competent video editor, you've suddenly added cost, bulk, heat, and slashed battery life. I'd rather just edit video on my desktop.
 
You do know that OSx is based on bsd unix right?

Yes. I am a Linux user who moved to osx for day to day use but I still keep a handful of Linux boxes running as NAS and such. MS is too proud to adopt *nix as the kernel for any of their os but the other three: android, webos and os x are all *nix based. That's why i said if ms adopted a *nix based mobile os there would be four again. Oops, I left out Nokia and their os is *nix based as well.
 
I'm not sure why some people are happy with the cancellation of the courier and (possibly) slate. Competition is a good thing and would push Apple to push even more updates into every revision of the iPad. Look at the iPhone, assuming what was leaked is real, that is a MAJOR hardware update and one has to assume that so many new features making it into one revision is because of the competition is was getting from competitors.

I for one was really looking forward to the Courier and the demo's were more what I'm looking for in a tablet than the iPad is.
 
Yeah, something I REALLY need for a tablet would be some way to add nice looking equations to word documents, and save word documents to .pdf and then email them. And also a way to run MatLab on it. Matlab could be done via VNC or something to my MBP or so I guess (although slowly). But do you know of a iPad app that can write good looking equations in word documents? If that exist I might even get a iPad.

I have never used Mathcad before, so I cannot comment on usability, or even if there is an application (yet) to do what you are looking for. I am certain that if there are other people like you, needing that function, that a solution will be published to fill that need... can't say exactly when, tho.

I have an iPad and really would like to be able to sit in on my corporate webcasts using it, but there is not currently a solution to do so. We use LiveMeeting (microsoft product) and it is written in Java, so the web application will not function on the iPad. I am hopeful that MS or a 3rd party has the know-how and drive to develop an application to supplement the web application, as the iPad is the PERFECT form factor to use for webinars, webcasts and virtual desktop demo's. Citrix and WebEx have solutions out there, so for competition's sake, MS should get off their collective butts and get to developing. Certainly Enterprise users will begin to weigh the options for their road-warriors and opt for a solution that works for a larger customer base. This is yet another area where MS may be caught asleep at the wheel and totally miss the moment.
 
Office 2007 runs perfect on my Dell Mini 9 with Windows 7(no stutters or performance issues). Boot ups are not a problem if they have sleep mode figured out and even if they don't my mini 9 boots in about 40 seconds. Performance is only an issue on entertainment apps. Most (not all) buisness apps work fine. And lets remember that usefulness in buisness is what propelled MS based OS's to the top of the heap.

There are also alot of vertical market software packages written for windows that alone would not be much to mention but together consitute alot of the apps run today in biusness. Apps for inventory and sales force that would benfit from the small foot print of a Slate.

Oh. My. God.
You just compared the iPad to the Dell Mini 9? :confused:

I have several Dell Mini 9's (which have subsequently been made into Hackintoshes).

I don't know where YOU got YOUR mini 9 but it must have been from DARPA because even running XP (with the 2 gig upgrade and lot's of other tweaks from www.mydellmini.com ) they are not what I would call...fast. Win 7 is much better but you, obviously, upgraded your SSD because the overhead is much larger. (or did you use win7strip ?). You must have also loaded the 'laptop' version of office without the extra graphic libraries and macro's on it. So..if you 'stripped both the OS and loaded a compact version of Office you still have almost no SSD storage left (for your swapfile) which will affect performance. I also assume you have lowered the memory settings for everything too. Don't get me wrong...the mini 9's are the best of the series for their flexibilty. I really like them but they are made to compete with netbooks...not the iPad. Even with the extended battery you don't get much over 2 hours (while using internet and keeping screen un-dimmed). They also have some serious shortcuts hardware wise (again, unless you have modified them which makes them inelligible to compare to a stock device). :confused:

The Dell's are great (especially running OSX) but comparing them is like comparing a 3-speed Schwinn with on of those ultra-lite magnesium mountain bikes. Both are designed to get you there but they do it in completly different ways.

Yeah, you can put a basket, a bell, lights, training wheels or anything else on the schwinn...but it weighs you down. You can also use many different suppliers (software) for your Schwinn but they might not exactly fit or be designed to work with that exact version of Schwinn. ;)

One those uber-light mountain bikes are CERTAINLY more expensive than the Schwinn. You can't just put parts of them...they have to be specifically designed (and from an approved supplier).The parts you can buy are perfect fits that do *exactly* what the FACTORY designed them to do...however, they are usually small specific use packages and the FACTORY doesn't always consult with bike riders to come up with them. :rolleyes:

Both bikes get you there....it's just about what kind of trip yo want to take.

Sorry, if this seems goofy...Pollen is killing me today...Ah..Springtime in the South with lot's of rain and sun. :eek:
 
Yes. I am a Linux user who moved to osx for day to day use but I still keep a handful of Linux boxes running as NAS and such. MS is too proud to adopt *nix as the kernel for any of their os but the other three: android, webos and os x are all *nix based. That's why i said if ms adopted a *nix based mobile os there would be four again. Oops, I left out Nokia and their os is *nix based as well.

You know why they addoted a *nix os as thier base? It was already built on the backs of people like you and me who care about software and FREE. So they could slap some fancy clothes on it and call it thier own.

unix is not the end all be all of OS's. There are LOTS of non-unix os's out there that are not windows and are very powerful. Linux is free of royaltys and a decent base to build upon. Pefect? I think not.
 
In a previous life I had an HP (nee Compaq) TC1100 Tablet Computer. It ran something called "XP for Tablet" or some such.

I used it mostly as a traveling computer. It had a lightweight keyboard that folded over to cover the screen. The slate part of it was pretty lame -- I almost never used it. It was stylus based and you had to remember all sorts of funny shortcuts to do things.

THANK YOU!!!! Someone remembers these!!!!

All my Apple hating co-workers who have never owned an Apple were trying to tell me I was wrong when we were discussing the iPad and I mentioned previous XP tablets and how they failed miserably because it was using a customized XP with a stylus.

I used to "sell" these. The reason its in quotes is because everyone I sold to someone convinced they needed one got returned!

This is why I didn't think the HP Slate would survive. It looked like the same deal but without the rotating screen.
 
I wouldn't rather do things slowly on a tablet than not do them at all on a tablet.

Not that I'd object in theory to having the option, but if it's a question of how products are designed and priced, I see almost zero value in being able to do something painfully, on a device that is intended to be very easy to use.

For example - if you were to take an iPad, and re-engineer it so that it was a competent video editor, you've suddenly added cost, bulk, heat, and slashed battery life. I'd rather just edit video on my desktop.

Well, then you'd still have to bring your laptop everywhere on the chance that you MIGHT have to use functions that your iPad don't have. And if you bring your laptop, why even bring the iPad then? Its just another 0.7 kg of weight that won't add anything to what the laptop gives you.

Some things aren't that important to HAVE to do I know. But I like the idea of being able to do last minute changes to my calculations if I spot an error. As it is now I bring my MBP too much to school, it is too heavy to lug around. So having a tablet that could replace the need to lug it around to do some calculations would rock :).


I have never used Mathcad before, so I cannot comment on usability, or even if there is an application (yet) to do what you are looking for. I am certain that if there are other people like you, needing that function, that a solution will be published to fill that need... can't say exactly when, tho.

I have an iPad and really would like to be able to sit in on my corporate webcasts using it, but there is not currently a solution to do so. We use LiveMeeting (microsoft product) and it is written in Java, so the web application will not function on the iPad. I am hopeful that MS or a 3rd party has the know-how and drive to develop an application to supplement the web application, as the iPad is the PERFECT form factor to use for webinars, webcasts and virtual desktop demo's. Citrix and WebEx have solutions out there, so for competition's sake, MS should get off their collective butts and get to developing. Certainly Enterprise users will begin to weigh the options for their road-warriors and opt for a solution that works for a larger customer base. This is yet another area where MS may be caught asleep at the wheel and totally miss the moment.

Mathlab is a mathematics program used to write programs that solve different problems. I use it for my mathematical statistics courses.
 
Oh. My. God.
You just compared the iPad to the Dell Mini 9? :confused:

I have several Dell Mini 9's (which have subsequently been made into Hackintoshes).

I don't know where YOU got YOUR mini 9 but it must have been from DARPA because even running XP (with the 2 gig upgrade and lot's of other tweaks from www.mydellmini.com ) they are not what I would call...fast. Win 7 is much better but you, obviously, upgraded your SSD because the overhead is much larger.

Dell Mini 9, with the SSD drive boots W7 in 30 seconds. I just tested it. Was in Word typing 5 seconds later. From sleep mode it's near instant on.
And there is no lag or issue. Keep in mind this is a non-optimized system. Just a year old mini-9 running W7 and Office 2007. If I could get that in the Slate I would be satisfied as a buisness user. I could read all our company specs (in word), do quotes (in excel), and take any notes I needed to about the process while multitasking notepad (or another word document). With out lag or issue. When I was done I could print it or transfer it to a usb drive for the customer. Thats successful buisness use.

Oh and by the way an iPhone takes about as long to "boot" when it comes up from a powered off state. It's the well done sleep mode that makes it appear to be "instant on". I would venture the iPad does as well.
 
I did not see this one coming. I guess it's better to fold than go ahead with loss and shame.
 
THANK YOU!!!! Someone remembers these!!!!

All my Apple hating co-workers who have never owned an Apple were trying to tell me I was wrong when we were discussing the iPad and I mentioned previous XP tablets and how they failed miserably because it was using a customized XP with a stylus.

I used to "sell" these. The reason its in quotes is because everyone I sold to someone convinced they needed one got returned!

This is why I didn't think the HP Slate would survive. It looked like the same deal but without the rotating screen.

I don't think it's anymore accurate to say windows can't compete in tablet form because it couldn't in the past, then saying Apple can't complete in the PDA market because the newton was a failure. Or ever take a dominate place in the desktop market because it's failure for the last 20 years. Look at the fall of Palm computing.

Companys learn from thier mistakes and make improvements. Technology improves, things change. The XBOX 360 is a perfect example of this.
They are now a BIG player in the game console market. And it wasn't because they muscled SONY or Nintendo out with special deals. It was because they put out a good product at a price people were comfortable with.
 
HP Slate Fail
nelson_haha.gif

They will release it in about a year, when it has a mobile OS from Palm.
Good for HP, cause they were about to F up releasing the Slate with Win 7.


Next time you see the term "iDevice Killer", know that without a doubt it is the exact opposite.
(iDevice wannabe FAIL.)
 
Funnily enough it looks like HP and Microsoft just admitted Apple did know better than them afterall. Ultimately i think they've both looked at the iPad and thought "S**T! Back to the drawing board."

As for the iPad not remaining market dominant because its lcoked down. Well, look at all those open MP3 players that will play anything you throw at them, many are cheaper than iPods, many sound better, many have better hardware. What's the market leader? Er, iPod, and has been for many years now.

Absolutely right, Apple produce a product thats 'locked down' for a specific reason. It's designed to do a job for a specific market and it does it well, not perfect but it is simple and highly effective. Time will of course tell when there are real competitors in the market but Apple will not sit still!

For all those who want something else why not go and try a Joo Joo or one of the other so called 'iPad killers', hang on where are they all??

If Apple competitors were that smart why have they not produced an all singing all dancing tablet with every interface possible, run every windoze application, have a 20 hour battery life, weigh less than 1lb, have a creative simple operating system, have a support and download eco system, not be open to every virus under the sun requiring upates every other day.....and so on.....
 
Yeah, something I REALLY need for a tablet would be some way to add nice looking equations to word documents, and save word documents to .pdf and then email them. And also a way to run MatLab on it. Matlab could be done via VNC or something to my MBP or so I guess (although slowly). But do you know of a iPad app that can write good looking equations in word documents? If that exist I might even get a iPad.

Give it time for the real iPad apps to appear, it's on been on the market for a few days!
 
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