MP 7,1 MKBHD switching to Mac Studio from Mac Pro, but why…

[rondocap]

You're really, really reaching there, and ultimately your argument makes no sense.

It's not as if he sold it to an individual for $4700. He got the standard buy back amount for it. Lots of people do this already. Apple will still charge end users the same refurb prices it would normal charge.

BTW, I am not optimistic for pricing on the used Intel Mac Pros once the Apple Silicon Mac Pro drops. I suspect the last Intel Mac Pro will drop in value quicker than is usual for the Mac Pro.

Yes, there is that core group of Mac Pro users who will need to stick with Intel for their workflows, but there will be a much bigger group of users who will flock to the Mac Studio instead, and of course, another smaller group that will flock to the Apple Silicon Mac Pro.

I do think the argument makes sense because casual listeners - including those who may want a cheaper 2nd hand Mac Pro - get the impression the depreciation was massive, from 42k to 4.7k.

It's not true and various comments on that podcast say exactly what I am saying - so him talking about it is tone deaf imo, unless he's not giving us all of the information and details.

But anyway, I agree there will be and is currently a lot of depreciation, which ultimately makes it a tougher sell. Most people aren't lining up to buy these, if they ever were.

But it still has tremendous use for many, and the trade in price he quoted is vastly under the actual 2nd hand sell price if the specs he mentioned are accurate.

If he brought the machine down to near base specs and removed the expensive bits, it would make more sense, but he did not mention this.

 

[deconstruct60]

That’s a good point too. The buyback offer amounts usually drop significantly shortly after new releases.

For his specific configuration that pragmatically already happened. A huge chunk of the 'value' there was two Vega II Pro Duos. Apple superseded the Vega II Pro Duo more than several months ago. Apple likely needs more Vega II Pro Duo as another hole in the head. ( technically not discontinued but next to no one is likely buying any. )

Apple Introduces New High-End Graphics Options for Mac Pro

Apple today began offering new high-end graphics upgrade options for both the tower and rack versions of the Mac Pro desktop computer. This comes on...

www.macrumors.com

About a year ago those GPU got superseded ( with the 6800 duo ) and chopped several hundred dollars off the price .
Although there is no Xeon W3300 Mac Pro ... that Intel 28 core, "> 1TB hefty ram tax" processor is superseded in the general market also. The W3300 series doesn't have the "heft RAM tax" on capacity. (and AMD's processors in that class never had it. ). There is zero upside in having grossly overpaid several years ago for a feature that never got used (on this machine).


Ditto for buying relatively lots of very high mark up RAM from Apple. Apple isn't going to buy that back at inflated prices. Apple isn't going to pay even a fraction of the 'Apple tax'. They'd would be lowering the margins on what they made on the machine when they sold it.


Apple usually shifts refurb prices down another 10-15% when it gets two generations old. This was already at 88% down. Not much more to go down than that. ( not going to double discount again. )

This is important for iPhones but for Macs it’s hard to know when to sell back to Apple etc. because there is no set schedule for Mac releases.

For a business you should buy a new machine when need it . If the system isn't making enough money to cover the cost of ownership then you have much deeper set of problems than Apple's Mac roadmap practices. If the machine has paid for itself there is no significant 'timing' issue. It is already paid for.


Used prices tend to fluctuate a bit around a release but not crater ( if willing to spend time to sell to someone besides Apple). The supply/demand balance recovers after an initial bubble of the "buy the newest shiny" wave hits a new Apple release.

depends upon what the new Mac Pro is. If Apple blocks 3rd party GPUs from it, then there will be hard core modular folks who start to cling to that 'last' Intel slot box.

However, in this case we KNOW a new Mac Pro is coming relatively soon, since Apple has already confirmed it’s coming, and has given us that 2 year transition period. That means it’s pretty likely it will at least be announced at WWDC and released by fall.

Folks said that last year about the MBP 14"/16". Depends upon if Apple has had some component schedule slips or not. At one point TSMC N3 was coming out in volume production in Fall 2022. Now it isn't. Lashing up a quad die into a uniform access , unified memory solution is harder than doing just two dies. Have six point to point connections instead of one. If wait to shrink the Ultra into a single die then would be back to just one (bigger) connection between dies.

Pretty good chance Apple's plans from 2.5 years ago are not going to schedule at this point. WWDC 2022 could just be an announcement they are kicking the can into Fall 2022 for Mac Pro sneak peek. Apple didn't say "relatively soon". They said "another day". There are tons of future days that are not 'relatively soon'. They didn't tie themselves down to any timeframe at all, other than the future.

 

[EugW]

I do think the argument makes sense because casual listeners - including those who may want a cheaper 2nd hand Mac Pro - get the impression the depreciation was massive, from 42k to 4.7k.

It's not true and various comments on that podcast say exactly what I am saying - so him talking about it is tone deaf imo, unless he's not giving us all of the information and details.

But anyway, I agree there will be and is currently a lot of depreciation, which ultimately makes it a tougher sell. Most people aren't lining up to buy these, if they ever were.

But it still has tremendous use for many, and the trade in price he quoted is vastly under the actual 2nd hand sell price if the specs he mentioned are accurate.

If he brought the machine down to near base specs and removed the expensive bits, it would make more sense, but he did not mention this.

Honestly, I think some Intel Mac Pro owners including yourself are just p!ssed your machines are losing value quickly.

Folks said that last year about the MBP 14"/16". Depends upon if Apple has had some component schedule slips or not. At one point TSMC N3 was coming out in volume production in Fall 2022. Now it isn't. Lashing up a quad die into a uniform access , unified memory solution is harder than doing just two dies. Have six point to point connections instead of one. If wait to shrink the Ultra into a single die then would be back to just one (bigger) connection between dies.

Pretty good chance Apple's plans from 2.5 years ago are not going to schedule at this point. WWDC 2022 could just be an announcement they are kicking the can into Fall 2022 for Mac Pro. Apple didn't say "relatively soon". They said "another day". There are tons of future days that are not 'relatively soon'. They didn't tie themselves down to any timeframe at all, other than the future.

Mac Pro likely won't be using N3. It's expected to use N4.

My expectation is a Mac Pro announcement - at least a preview - at WWDC. Then the Mac Pro would be available for sale sometime later, but in calendar 2022.

For a business you should buy a new machine when need it . If the system isn't making enough money to cover the cost of ownership then you have much deeper set of problems than Apple's Mac roadmap practices. If the machine has paid for itself there is no significant 'timing' issue. It is already paid for.

Everyone always says that, and there is of course truth to that, but some small businesses will often try to time their purchases strategically. During a platform architecture transition period, this is especially true. As in, for a lot of them who aren't locked to an Intel workflow, it would not be a good idea to buy a full priced Intel Mac Pro today. Indeed, some who need to buy now are just getting a Mac Studio.

 

[now i see it]

He essentially gave his Mac Pro away because he couldn’t be bothered selling it. The guy’s net worth is north of $9 million

 

[Tagbert]

I agree. He did spend a long time saying the above, which makes sense, but I'll quote the conclusion of the review:



BTW, the actual title of the review is "The Apple Studio Display is a Bad Deal".

Yes, and that title is at least verging on "clickbait" since it exaggerates his actual take on it. Too many people never get past the headlines.

 

[EugW]

Yes, and that title is at least verging on "clickbait" since it exaggerates his actual take on it. Too many people never get past the headlines.

Yeah, in fact I assumed the title was clickbait when I clicked on that video. The video is far more nuanced than that, but then in the end his final conclusion was indeed that the Apple Studio Display is a bad deal.

So yeah, the title was a bit clickbaity, but it's clear he doesn't think it's a good deal, and he isn't shilling this product for Apple.

 

[deconstruct60]

Yes, and that title is at least verging on "clickbait" since it exaggerates his actual take on it. Too many people never get past the headlines.

That is his conclusion at the end. He does go to great length to extensively talk about the relatively narrow corner case where it is not. If you are super duper Apple fan who wants the exact set of features (fixated on exactly 5K , etc. ) that Apple provided here ... then it is good. But that is like saying his other examples are good deals. The $400K Rolls Royce car is a generally good car deal? No, it isn't to the vast majority of folks who are watching that video (for a very small subset perhaps). Neither are the $200+ Nike sneakers. (for the narrow subset of sneakerhead viewers that could be different).

That Studio Display video was watched by 3.3M people. It is is great deal for the vast majority of those folks? It isn't. $400 for height adjustment when almost every decent alternative gives you that for "free" is a good deal? No.
The 64GB of Flash storage that provides little to no user value add is a good deal? No. The borked software on the webcam is a good deal? Nope. Do you even get the borked software if plugged into a Windows instance? Nope. ( at 3.3M viewers and Apple having less than 10% of the market .... 90% of those 3.3M folks don't have macOS. So yes the webcam is way overpriced with the 'do nothing' A13 and 64GB Flash attached to it. )



He is threading a line to keep his favored Apple reviewer status by building a sub narrative where the Apple skewed buyers will latch onto it anyway and buy it. But to his broader viewing audience he is relatively clear. To label that as 'clickbait' is a farce. He is not primarily running a "apple fan" blog. Outside the tiny niche, it is not a good deal. For his own personal use he explicitly stated that it was a "miss" . ( a nicer way of saying 'bad deal' and highly likely will never see it deployed in his studio. ).

 

[aevan]

Can anyone say "participate in a marketing campaign where you publicly switch to a slower machine, extoll its virtues, and we'll make sure you're on the inside track to receive the new Mac Pro for review purposes, which you can hold on to until we release the next one"?

I'm sure Apple can say that.

This is definitely not the case with MKBHD (and most good reviewers, honestly). I mean, do you really think one of the most successful and respected content creator today has so little integrity? They would risk their entire reputation and business for one product?

The answer is really simple - for what they do, the Studio is probably the best computer there is. Or at least they think it is. That's just it, no grand conspiracy here. That doesn't mean Mac Studio is the best for everything, but obviously MKBHD believes it's best for his work.

The biggest part of this misinformation comes down to the mac studio having hardware accelerators with ProRes and H265. it will handedly will beat any conventional computer such as the Mac Pro.

but not everyone uses specifically those types of workflows, and many professionals do in fact use r3d raw and other GPU heavy workflows that are still very far away from being matched.

Well, you just answered your own question. MKBHD is switching to Mac Studio because he doesn't use r3d raw and other GPU heavy workflows, and his workflows rely on ProRes. That's just it. Most professionals buy specialised hardware.

If you have other requirements, get the hardware best suited for your needs.

 

[EugW]

This is definitely not the case with MKBHD (and most good reviewers, honestly). I mean, do you really think one of the most successful and respected content creator today has so little integrity? They would risk their entire reputation and business for one product?

The answer is really simple - for what they do, the Studio is probably the best computer there is. Or at least they think it is. That's just it, no grand conspiracy here. That doesn't mean Mac Studio is the best for everything, but obviously MKBHD believes it's best for his work.

Actually, @Pilot Jones mentioned that in MKBHD's review, he says the Mac Studio is not necessarily quite as fast as his Mac Pro. However, that's besides the point, because it's likely 'fast enough' for most of his particular workflow. Plus, it's probably just one of several machines his group uses anyway.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

You're really, really reaching there, and ultimately your argument makes no sense.

It's not as if he sold it to an individual for $4700. He got the standard buy back amount for it. Lots of people do this already. Apple will still charge end users the same refurb prices it would normal charge.

BTW, I am not optimistic for pricing on the used Intel Mac Pros once the Apple Silicon Mac Pro drops. I suspect the last Intel Mac Pro will drop in value quicker than is usual for the Mac Pro.

Yes, there is that core group of Mac Pro users who will need to stick with Intel for their workflows, but there will be a much bigger group of users who will flock to the Mac Studio instead, and of course, another smaller group that will flock to the Apple Silicon Mac Pro.

You can wave your hands all you like in all apologies, but he could have easily gotten $20-25k for that system. Throwing that much money away, 15-20k, is beyond conspicuous and deserving of scrutiny.

 

[Tagbert]

That is his conclusion at the end. He does go to great length to extensively talk about the relatively narrow corner case where it is not. If you are super duper Apple fan who wants the exact set of features (fixated on exactly 5K , etc. ) that Apple provided here ... then it is good. But that is like saying his other examples are good deals. The $400K Rolls Royce car is a generally good car deal? No, it isn't to the vast majority of folks who are watching that video (for a very small subset perhaps). Neither are the $200+ Nike sneakers. (for the narrow subset of sneakerhead viewers that could be different).

That Studio Display video was watched by 3.3M people. It is is great deal for the vast majority of those folks? It isn't. $400 for height adjustment when almost every decent alternative gives you that for "free" is a good deal? No.
The 64GB of Flash storage that provides little to no user value add is a good deal? No. The borked software on the webcam is a good deal? Nope. Do you even get the borked software if plugged into a Windows instance? Nope. ( at 3.3M viewers and Apple having less than 10% of the market .... 90% of those 3.3M folks don't have macOS. So yes the webcam is way overpriced with the 'do nothing' A13 and 64GB Flash attached to it. )



He is threading a line to keep his favored Apple reviewer status by building a sub narrative where the Apple skewed buyers will latch onto it anyway and buy it. But to his broader viewing audience he is relatively clear. To label that as 'clickbait' is a farce. He is not primarily running a "apple fan" blog. Outside the tiny niche, it is not a good deal. For his own personal use he explicitly stated that it was a "miss" . ( a nicer way of saying 'bad deal' and highly likely will never see it deployed in his studio. ).

Is it a "good deal", no. My point was that the headline did not really reflect the content of the review. Certainly if you don't care about the resolution of the monitor and value some other feature like refresh rate or physical size, then there are better choice out there. The Role-Royce example was a silly exaggeration. The Studio Display is not where as expensive even in a relative pricing model. Trying to fit it into a "good deal"/"bad deal" dichotomy is reductive and obscures the actual story of the review.

 

[brucewayne]

You can wave your hands all you like in all apologies, but he could have easily gotten $20-25k for that system. Throwing that much money away, 15-20k, is beyond conspicuous and deserving of scrutiny.

It would be conspicuous if he was just an average Joe. That machine is wrapped up in write-offs for his business - likely claiming a loss is just as beneficial as the extra 20k in cash.

 

[EugW]

You can wave your hands all you like in all apologies, but he could have easily gotten $20-25k for that system. Throwing that much money away, 15-20k, is beyond conspicuous and deserving of scrutiny.

I dunno, but "easily gotten $20-25k" seems like a stretch to me.

Maybe I'm outta the loop because I don't buy high end Mac Pros, but I have acquired other equipment for our department in my previous job. If I told my boss that I spent $25000 to buy used equipment with no warranty, vs. $30000 to buy refurb direct from the manufacturer with full warranty and full eligibility for extended warranty, let's just say my boss would not have been very happy. The fact that it was just about to be discontinued for a brand new and likely much better model too would not have helped either. Mind you, that wouldn't have been possible anyway since we would want proper invoices for all such purchases. $25000 ain't petty cash, and eBay and PayPal receipts don't count.

Perhaps $20000 is indeed a reasonable ask, but how long would that take? I note that completed eBay sales of $20000 Mac Pros appear to be quite uncommon. There was one with the same specs that sold three months ago in January for just under $20000, and nothing since. All the other Mac Pro sales in recent months were for lower spec'd units that sold for less than $15000. There are several Mac Pros listings for over $20000, but from what I gather, they are not selling, despite having the "Best Offer" option too.

The other factor here is something @deconstruct60 has already addressed. Perhaps s/he can better outline this, but let's say that the true depreciated value is ~$5000 after almost 3 years. If it did actually sell for $20000, that means $15000 of capital gains, which would have to be declared and subject to taxation.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

It would be conspicuous if he was just an average Joe. That machine is wrapped up in write-offs for his business - likely claiming a loss is just as beneficial as the extra 20k in cash.

Any time someone just "throws away" 15-20k seems conspicuous to me. YMMV.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I dunno, but "easily gotten $20-25k" seems like a stretch to me.

Maybe I'm outta the loop because I don't buy high end Mac Pros, but I have acquired other equipment for our department in my previous job. If I told my boss that I spent $25000 to buy used equipment with no warranty, vs. $30000 to buy refurb direct from the manufacturer with full warranty and full eligibility for extended warranty, let's just say my boss would not have been very happy. The fact that it was just about to be discontinued for a brand new and likely much better model too would not have helped either. Mind you, that wouldn't have been possible anyway since we would want proper invoices for all such purchases. $25000 ain't petty cash, and eBay and PayPal receipts don't count.

Perhaps $20000 is indeed a reasonable ask, but how long would that take? I note that completed eBay sales of $20000 Mac Pros appear to be quite uncommon. There was one with the same specs that sold three months ago in January for just under $20000, and nothing since. All the other Mac Pro sales in recent months were for lower spec'd units that sold for less than $15000. There are several Mac Pros listings for over $20000, but from what I gather, they are not selling, despite having the "Best Offer" option too.

The other factor here is something @deconstruct60 has already addressed. Perhaps s/he can better outline this, but let's say that the true depreciated value is ~$5000 after almost 3 years. If it did actually sell for $20000, that means $15000 of capital gains, which would have to be declared and subject to taxation.

Look on ebay. Systems are going for 10k easy. Selling the video cards and ram separately easily get you over 15k. That's not trying.

 

[EugW]

Look on ebay. Systems are going for 10k easy. Selling the video cards and ram separately easily get you over 15k. That's not trying.

Parting out does increase the hassle factor, but anyhow you ignored the part about taxation. Again, if the depreciated value is $5000 and it's sold for $20000, that means a difference $15000 that is subject to taxation. I'm not American so I don't know the details of the US tax system, but nonetheless I know that amount would be subject to capital gains tax.

I'm curious. What is the combined capital gains tax rate, for a company in New Jersey (where he's located) bringing in say $5 million a year in revenue?

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Parting out does increase the hassle factor, but anyhow you ignored the part about taxation. Again, if the depreciated value is $5000 and it's sold for $20000, that means a difference $15000 that is subject to taxation. I'm not American so I don't know the details of the US tax system, but nonetheless I know that amount would be subject to capital gains tax.

I'm curious. What is the combined capital gains tax rate, for a company in New Jersey (where he's located) bringing in say $5 million a year in revenue?

No capital gains. It was an expense. It would potentially affect the right down as a depreciated asset, assuming he does that, which would change things marginally.

In the end, it's 15-20k. He could have given it away to listener. Better yet, if he really cared so little about the money, donated the machine to some charity and taken more of a write-off. Or had it auctioned for some charity and made money for them. Or just sold it to ebay and donated that money. Given the rig to an employee. So many possibilities.

There is a lot of good that can be done with 15-20k. You're doing better than smoking cigars rolled in $100 bills when you indiscriminately are throwing away that kind of money. He's certainly free to do what he likes. He could literally burn the machine or the money for all I care. But that's one frisbee guy that I have very little respect for.

Not sure what I hold in less regard, but giving him the benefit of the doubt on a brain fart laps of judgment, I just dont respect the frisbee player's opinion on tech. His decision making process on "not worth the time" and how he discarded this machine is just the tip of the iceberg, and goes more fundamentally to his lack of tech chops, so meh, I just dont care what he thinks, but it bothers me that such a non-tech bozo is moving wider tech opinions.

Just my opinion of course. If you like him, more power to you. Different strokes and all that. As always, YMMV.

 

[EugW]

No capital gains. It was an expense. It would potentially affect the right down as a depreciated asset, assuming he does that, which would change things marginally.

That is not correct.

After 3 years the depreciating asset would not be worth much, but a sale of $20000 would represent a taxable capital gain over the depreciated value.

I just don't know what the combined tax rate for capital gains are in New Jersey.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

That is not correct.

After 3 years the depreciating asset would not be worth much, but a sale of $20000 would represent a taxable capital gain over the depreciated value.

I just don't know what the combined tax rate for capital gains are in New Jersey.

it’s not 3 years. some early people got it in december of 2019. It’s li.e 2.3 years old.

anyway, straightline depreciation would mean it is 48k over 5 years. Even if you use 3 years it still comes out to $19.2k, basically a straight wash if he sold for 20k.

 

[EugW]

it’s not 3 years. some early people got it in december of 2019. It’s li.e 2.3 years old.

anyway, straightline depreciation would mean it is 48k over 5 years. Even if you use 3 years it still comes out to $19.2k, basically a straight wash if he sold for 20k.

It was ~$42K, plus I guess 6.625% sales tax, which brings it to ~$45000. Correct me if I am wrong, but at 2.3 years that brings it to depreciated value of ~$10000.

 

[mattspace]

This is definitely not the case with MKBHD (and most good reviewers, honestly). I mean, do you really think one of the most successful and respected content creator today has so little integrity? They would risk their entire reputation and business for one product?

I don't think a single one of his fans would change their opinion of him. Half of them would probably cheer him on for playing game. But I want to question the "respected content creator" thing - Is he?

A horse is a "content creator". You feed it grass, hay and oats at one end, and "content" comes out the other (and in the horse's case, the content is a really good fertiliser for making food).

What new things has MKBHD created - I don't mean talking about things other people have created, but what new things has he brought to the world that did not exist beforehand?

A guy who makes product promotion videos, being lauded for his contribution to making product promotion videos, seems to be the most tech-industry-onanistic thing imaginable.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

It was ~$42K, plus I guess 6.625% sales tax, which brings it to ~$45000. Correct me if I am wrong, but at 2.3 years that brings it to depreciated value of ~$10000.

It’s 5 years for depreciation. And I believe it’s straight line. So it should be in the 20s I think. are you on a 3 year depreciation curve?

 

[mattspace]

It was ~$42K, plus I guess 6.625% sales tax, which brings it to ~$45000. Correct me if I am wrong, but at 2.3 years that brings it to depreciated value of ~$10000.

If it has depreciated by 10k, and the US business tax rate is 21%, then he gets at most $2100 off his business' tax bill.

 

[EugW]

It’s 5 years for depreciation. And I believe it’s straight line. So it should be in the 20s I think. are you on a 3 year depreciation curve?

Yeah, 3 years.

Where I'm from, our depreciation on computers is calculated at 30% per year. So, three years and a bit. I understand this wouldn't be the same in the US though.

 

[patrick.a]

So thanks to Marques I checked the trade-in value of my 12core Mac Pro as well. Apple would give me 4550 - which is more than I've expected. So the upgrade to a Mac Studio Ultra with 128GB would be just a couple of hundred bucks and give me quite a speed bump in single core and almost double the power in multicore for my CPU-renderings.
I don't really need PCI-slots and don't do GPU-renderings so this is quite tempting! Only two things holding me back: I LOVE the design of the Mac Pro and I do appreciate upgradability quite a lot.