iPad Mouse Support - The Missing Elephant

[akash.nu]

Let's talk on how apple implemented the Apple Pencil charge from the iPad shall we )
No Apple certainly does not implement all things better, at least not all the time.

I agree with this one. Apple Pencil charging mechanism is horrendous. I never said they do everything right by the way.

 

[Raist3001]

Let's talk on how apple implemented the Apple Pencil charge from the iPad shall we )

Speaking of the apple pencil, did the apple pencil somehow compromise iOS? After all, it was another way to interact with the touch designed interface. The answer is no. It did not. Nor would mouse support somehow compromise iOS. It would simply be another way to interact with iOS when needed.

Oh and yea, I agree, the charging design on the pencil always seemed like an afterthought.

 

[Pete Rodgers]

The Apple Pencil is another story!! I've lost the lightning adapter, the cap and had to put a rubber sleeve on it to stop my finger skidding. It's the best stylus I've ever used though.

 

[mrcat]

I could meow all night over this subject but it is strange comparing apple and samsungs decisions with their tablets. apart from the missing mouse support, why isn't reading and writing from external drives allowed unless wireless? Also what is the harm in allowing multiple users using the same iPad? They should be looking into increasing productivity not hindering it.

 

[kasakka]

I could meow all night over this subject but it is strange comparing apple and samsungs decisions with their tablets. apart from the missing mouse support, why isn't reading and writing from external drives allowed unless wireless? Also what is the harm in allowing multiple users using the same iPad? They should be looking into increasing productivity not hindering it.

Multiple users would probably be easy to implement as the underlying system most likely already supports it just fine. So the decision not to do it could be financial to sell more iPads to families etc.

Apple seems to really hate having anything connected to their devices other than a charger. Which is kind of understandable as that means tying them to a desk but I doubt people are hooking drives to their iPads constantly so it would not be an issue.

 

[mojofilter9]

I've come to an iPad Pro 10.5" from a Samsung Galaxy S2 and as much as I love it, mouse support is useful from time to time.
I don't have particularly advanced requirements from my tablet but I do use them with keyboards for writing.

It's much less faffy using a mouse to select text, move the cursor etc... than it is with the touch screen.
It's not a show stopper by any means but it would be nice to have the option. I wouldn't want any UI changes to go along with mouse support, iOS is a touch based system that works well and it shouldn't be changed.

While I'm asking for stuff I'd like to be able to buy a dongle that lets me access a thumb drive. Again not being able to isn't ever a show stopper but sometimes I get given a thumb drive with files and it's an unnecessary faff getting those files onto my iPad.

 

[robbietop]

After much thinking and reading here, I had an epiphany.

If you've followed this thread, I heartily advanced that adding a mouse would necessitate a UI redesign, because a mouse is a much more accurate pointer than a rounded, dull finger.

But, I had a conversation with a friend the other night and he is a mouse guy.

In all this talk of tablets and touchscreens, it seems I forgot a VERY old argument that only techies over 35 will even remember.

I grew up on IBM and Microsoft DOS. DOS is all command line, all keyboard.
So, for me, when they introduced the mouse, it was new. It wasn't a default Interface Device.

In 1984, when Mac OS first hit the shelves, the mouse was actually considered by some as:

1. A gimmick to drive sales
2. A toy for hobbyists
3. Only useful for graphics (vector and static) design
4. A frustrating implement that was ignored except only in those rare instances where it is actually needed.

So, I will honor the argument that the iPad needs a mouse and do a 180 for these reasons:

1. I do not actually use a mouse on my Mac or the trackpad. It is used to select things sparingly.
2. I am a keyboard guy. I could zip around my Mac all day long without touching the trackpad or mouse once.
   1. I know all the keyboard shortcuts.
   2. I use Page Up and Page Down
   3. Command Key on every Mac I have ever used wears out after about a year.
   4. I used to do publishing on Corel and Word. Any accents or special characters I need, I can either recall from memory or Alt-Tab to the browser, tab to the search bar, and then type out the query in Google.
3. I have started paying attention to how much people use a mouse. I had no idea that those who used PCs when Mice were new are keyboard enthusiasts, and those who came to computers after the explosion in the late 90s, early 2000s are mouse users.

I find the mouse clunky and inefficient to get done what I want to get done because in my eyes it's a toy, a gimmick that will never stand up to the ultimate power of the keyboard.
And for many of us who rely on keyboard shortcuts to zip around OSes, we feel this way. The keyboard has complete mastery of the machine. A Mouse has to be found, directed, and pointed. It is inefficient to me.

To others it isn't.
They use right click (what is right click, ha?). They use Left press and drag to highlight text (Shift+Arrow Keys on keyboard). They double click (Command+O or double tap Enter). They click and drag (cut and paste for keyboard users). They click Bold, Italic, etc (Command/CTRL+B/I on keyboard).

So from my perspective, the mouse is actually useless.
I am sorry that my derision of the secondary input device known as the mouse came off as dripping with condescension. It is. Always will be. But I am a tiny minority these days and people have feelings and the age old argument between mouse and keyboard users died 15 years ago.

 

[mrcat]

windows and mice always had a clunky relationship, dos was much simpler, tools like xtree made life easier too. windows 3.1 was thrown on top and pushed people to gui. it was still playing catch up, compare dos on a pc to using an amiga computer. apple wasn't the only one seeing what lay ahead by adopting a gui and mouse. we worked with dbase, supercalc and wordperfect on pc but for dtp we used a mac. pc did get aldus pagemaker but the mac had quark xpress...

From the atari st, commodore amiga to ibm pc and apple macintosh, no one can ever take away my love for the humble mouse!

 

[jamface]

That's why the OP said, mouse support, not mouse requirement.

If one doesn't want to use a mouse, then don't.

The beauty of a mouse is that it doesn't require a person to block out part of their vision of the screen with their hand,

this is also why bezels aren't such a bad thing.

 

[Victory88]

Mouse support is great - with mouse i can do more, touch less. I feel tired when i touch much. Click is easier.

 

[Abazigal]

Let's talk on how apple implemented the Apple Pencil charge from the iPad shall we )
No Apple certainly does not implement all things better, at least not all the time.

I personally find it very clever. In fact, that's the only way I ever charge my Apple Pencil these days - by plugging it into the lightning port of my iPad. I don't need to carry around any extra batteries or adaptors or cables.

 

[Abazigal]

How about we use what we feel is best to get the job done instead of you telling everyone what they need to use? I will never understand why there are folks so vehemently against having mouse support. As if such a thing can physically harm them. Asking for mouse support is in no way asking to compromise the iOS experience which mouse support would never do.

That's precisely what I am suggesting. Use the best tool for the job. If you need mouse support to work on a spreadsheet, either use a PC, or learn to put up with the idiosyncrasies of working with one on a tablet.

No one is asking them to do so by asking for mouse support. Such a strawman argument.

I am reminded of flash being blocked on ios. In the short run, consumers were no doubt inconvenienced, but we all benefited in the long run from having better native apps optimised for touch and direct input, and from better HMTL5 technology.

Had flash continued to exist on iOS devices back then, we may never have enjoyed the progress that we did.

That to me is perspective. The ability to look beyond the current workflows and not get distracted by the here and now.

The solution to the lack of mouse support on the iPad lies in getting developers to think out of the box and redesign their app UIs to work better with touch so that users won't need a mouse. Not to shoehorn mouse support in.

For example, there is airtable for iOS, which sports a radically different UI on mobile devices compared to desktop. One that is optimised for a touchscreen user experience. This is the level we should be trying to raise all developers up to, not go down to their level.

LOL....Mouse mode....People simply just do not understand.

I disagree; it IS antithetical to their vision. A keyboard is just a different way to enter text, but a mouse changes the interaction between literally every other element in the OS. The mouse pointer has a presence even when there is no active input, which is exactly the opposite of the touch model — input only exists when the user is pressing on the screen, and when they let go, that’s it. The mouse pointer has a position on the screen and continues to exist even when its not displayed or being moved. You can ‘hover’ a mouse pointer over something.

The MacBook doesn't sport a touchscreen for a reason. Apple believes that keyboard and mouse input belongs on legacy systems. The iPad is Apple's opportunity to start all over and reimagine how people get to interact with their computing devices for work and leisure.

The people who think that Apple will implement two different UIs in a single product that switches dynamically on the fly depending on what input you are using are the ones who do not understand Apple.

 

[Pspressart]

windows and mice always had a clunky relationship, dos was much simpler, tools like xtree made life easier too. windows 3.1 was thrown on top and pushed people to gui. it was still playing catch up, compare dos on a pc to using an amiga computer. apple wasn't the only one seeing what lay ahead by adopting a gui and mouse. we worked with dbase, supercalc and wordperfect on pc but for dtp we used a mac. pc did get aldus pagemaker but the mac had quark xpress...

From the atari st, commodore amiga to ibm pc and apple macintosh, no one can ever take away my love for the humble mouse!

I wrote dBASE code in 1984 using an IBM PC. My text editor was the DOS version of Microsoft Word, partially because it supported two text windows. It also supported using a mouse, which made copy and paste from one window to the next very easy. I live in a predominately Windows world - my only Apple devices are my iPad and iPhone. Since my only business use for my iPad is remote tech support, having the Jump app with Citrix mouse support is great. For my leisure use, not having a mouse is OK. However, If I needed to use my iPad for intensive work with apps like Word or Excel, I would prefer having a mouse. I get around that by using Jump to remote into my work PC.

 

[richpjr]

That's precisely what I am suggesting. Use the best tool for the job. If you need mouse support to work on a spreadsheet, either use a PC, or learn to put up with the idiosyncrasies of working with one on a tablet.

You are really missing the point for a lot of mouse fans - we don't want to have to use different devices. When I travel for work now I have to bring two devices - a MBP and my iPad. If I had mouse and file system access I could use an iPad for a huge amount of my work. I knew what I was getting when I bought my iPad - that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved to be vastly more useful with a small amount of work on their part.

The solution to the lack of mouse support on the iPad lies in getting developers to think out of the box and redesign their app UIs to work better with touch so that users won't need a mouse. Not to shoehorn mouse support in.

There is no amount of clever a developer can drop into an app that will remove the ergonomic disaster that users having to reach up to touch a screen while using an ASK is going to overcome.

I disagree; it IS antithetical to their vision. A keyboard is just a different way to enter text, but a mouse changes the interaction between literally every other element in the OS. The mouse pointer has a presence even when there is no active input, which is exactly the opposite of the touch model — input only exists when the user is pressing on the screen, and when they let go, that’s it. The mouse pointer has a position on the screen and continues to exist even when its not displayed or being moved. You can ‘hover’ a mouse pointer over something.

Why is it a big deal to have a mouse cursor on the screen? It is literally trivial to implement and in fact Apple has already done it in their simulators for iOS. Works great.

The MacBook doesn't sport a touchscreen for a reason. Apple believes that keyboard and mouse input belongs on legacy systems. The iPad is Apple's opportunity to start all over and reimagine how people get to interact with their computing devices for work and leisure.

No, Apple believes that having to reach up to touch a screen is not very good ergonomics. You know, like they are forcing people to do with the ASK.

 

[onepoint]

That's precisely what I am suggesting. Use the best tool for the job. If you need mouse support to work on a spreadsheet, either use a PC, or learn to put up with the idiosyncrasies of working with one on a tablet.


I am reminded of flash being blocked on ios. In the short run, consumers were no doubt inconvenienced, but we all benefited in the long run from having better native apps optimised for touch and direct input, and from better HMTL5 technology.

Had flash continued to exist on iOS devices back then, we may never have enjoyed the progress that we did.

That to me is perspective. The ability to look beyond the current workflows and not get distracted by the here and now.

The solution to the lack of mouse support on the iPad lies in getting developers to think out of the box and redesign their app UIs to work better with touch so that users won't need a mouse. Not to shoehorn mouse support in.

For example, there is airtable for iOS, which sports a radically different UI on mobile devices compared to desktop. One that is optimised for a touchscreen user experience. This is the level we should be trying to raise all developers up to, not go down to their level.


I disagree; it IS antithetical to their vision. A keyboard is just a different way to enter text, but a mouse changes the interaction between literally every other element in the OS. The mouse pointer has a presence even when there is no active input, which is exactly the opposite of the touch model — input only exists when the user is pressing on the screen, and when they let go, that’s it. The mouse pointer has a position on the screen and continues to exist even when its not displayed or being moved. You can ‘hover’ a mouse pointer over something.

The MacBook doesn't sport a touchscreen for a reason. Apple believes that keyboard and mouse input belongs on legacy systems. The iPad is Apple's opportunity to start all over and reimagine how people get to interact with their computing devices for work and leisure.

The people who think that Apple will implement two different UIs in a single product that switches dynamically on the fly depending on what input you are using are the ones who do not understand Apple.

What are your thoughts on the arrow keys Apple included on the Smart Keyboard? Seems to me they provide an appalling and dreadfully antithetical manner of interacting with the touchscreen without pressing on it.

 

[Tapiture]

Steve Jobs would be rolling over in his grave if they added mouse support. He believed there is a fine line between the mobile devices and the Macs. Out of principle and to avoid competing with their own Mac devices, they won’t ever do it.

 

[richpjr]

Steve Jobs would be rolling over in his grave if they added mouse support. He believed there is a fine line between the mobile devices and the Macs. Out of principle and to avoid competing with their own Mac devices, they won’t ever do it.

He also couldn't understand why people would want to use cases and screen protectors on their iPads and iPhones - yet a ton do and Apple sells them. Steve isn't here, sadly, so what would Steve do appears to be a fading philosophy at Apple.

 

[Abazigal]

You are really missing the point for a lot of mouse fans - we don't want to have to use different devices. When I travel for work now I have to bring two devices - a MBP and my iPad. If I had mouse and file system access I could use an iPad for a huge amount of my work. I knew what I was getting when I bought my iPad - that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved to be vastly more useful with a small amount of work on their part.

Therein lies the whole issue. You want the iPad and macbook to converge ala what Microsoft has done with the Surface Pro, a product which, for all the praise leaped on it by the tech blogging community, hasn't exactly caught on with the masses, because it causes as many problems as it solves.

You are taking the needs and desires of what is likely an extremely niche but vocal group of users and attempting to project them onto the entire iPad community, without also considering if that is what the rest need or want, much less if such a move might be deleterious to the overall user experience.

There is no amount of clever a developer can drop into an app that will remove the ergonomic disaster that users having to reach up to touch a screen while using an ASK is going to overcome.

And they shouldn't need to. The iPad is a touchscreen tablet first and foremost. Developers should continue to optimise their apps based on the assumption that users will interact with the app via the touchscreen and only the touchscreen. Everything else is of secondary importance.

Why is it a big deal to have a mouse cursor on the screen? It is literally trivial to implement and in fact Apple has already done it in their simulators for iOS. Works great.

Because a mouse would change the interaction between literally every other element in the OS. The mouse pointer has a presence even when there is no active input, which is exactly the opposite of the touch model—input only exists when the user is pressing on the screen, and when they let go, that’s it. The mouse pointer has a position on the screen and continues to exist even when its not displayed or being moved. You can ‘hover’ a mouse pointer over something.

So how do you handle the mouse in the touch system? Do you treat it exactly like the finger? So your click is exactly like your touch? Launching apps is then a single-click, and drawing requires that you click and drag all around the screen? What happens when you reach the end of the screen? Fingers stop touching the screen, but the mouse pointer is now jammed up against the side. You can lift your finger and randomly access anywhere on the screen quickly, but with a mouse pointer, you’re confined to linear motion—you cannot simply go from here to there without crossing the intervening space. THEN you have the additional trouble of making the targets on the screen sufficiently accessible to a mouse.

The user interface guidelines would be a mess. Menu access would suddenly become necessary. You’d have to consider Fitts’ law all over again.

If Apple were going to do all that work, there’d be no reason to duplicate it, which is why I say that mouse support won’t happen unless they merge the OSes into one. It’s a considerable amount of overhead for very little gain on their parts. From your perspective, it seems like you should just be able to move a mouse around and click, but from theirs (and by extension, the perspective of the app developers that would be on the hook for handling this interaction model), it means re-inspecting all sorts of assumptions that they’ve left as solved.

No, Apple believes that having to reach up to touch a screen is not very good ergonomics. You know, like they are forcing people to do with the ASK.

The ASK remains an optional accessory for the iPad. People are not forced to use it like they are pretty much forced to use a keyboard and trackpad with a Macbook. You are free to detach the iPad and use it as a tablet when it would be more conducive, or dock it and type away for when a dedicated keyboard is more suitable.

It's up to you to decide which compromise you would rather make.

 

[seadragon]

It amazes me how some people in this thread are overcomplicating such a simple thing. Absolutely mind boggling.

Load up an iOS simulator on your Mac. Congratulations , you're now successfully using a mouse with iOS. Works just fine.

Watch this video from 4 years ago on a Gen 1 iPad. This is what the mouse would be like. Perfect!

 

[danny842003]

It amazes me how some people in this thread are overcomplicating such a simple thing. Absolutely mind boggling.

Load up an iOS simulator on your Mac. Congratulations , you're now successfully using a mouse with iOS. Works just fine.

Watch this video from 4 years ago on a Gen 1 iPad. This is what the mouse would be like. Perfect!

It amazes me how many people simplify such a basic thing...

 

[rowspaxe]

In 1984, when Mac OS first hit the shelves, the mouse was actually considered by some as:

1. A gimmick to drive sales
2. A toy for hobbyists
3. Only useful for graphics (vector and static) design
4. A frustrating implement that was ignored except only in those rare instances where it is actually needed.

not true.

I am sorry that my derision of the secondary input device known as the mouse came off as dripping with condescension..

true

 

[richpjr]

Therein lies the whole issue. You want the iPad and macbook to converge ala what Microsoft has done with the Surface Pro, a product which, for all the praise leaped on it by the tech blogging community, hasn't exactly caught on with the masses, because it causes as many problems as it solves.

Not at all. I just want simple mouse support to make my iPad more useful to me. That isn't even close to convergence.

You are taking the needs and desires of what is likely an extremely niche but vocal group of users and attempting to project them onto the entire iPad community, without also considering if that is what the rest need or want, much less if such a move might be deleterious to the overall user experience.

I don't really care how you or anyone else use your iPads, nor am I projecting anything about what you need or want. I just think my iPad can be more useful to me.

And they shouldn't need to. The iPad is a touchscreen tablet first and foremost. Developers should continue to optimise their apps based on the assumption that users will interact with the app via the touchscreen and only the touchscreen. Everything else is of secondary importance.

It is tablet first. Yet Apple offers the ASK to make typing easier. A mouse would make selection of things easier without having to reach out and touch the screen. Literally nothing needs to change for anything else.

Because a mouse would change the interaction between literally every other element in the OS. The mouse pointer has a presence even when there is no active input, which is exactly the opposite of the touch model—input only exists when the user is pressing on the screen, and when they let go, that’s it. The mouse pointer has a position on the screen and continues to exist even when its not displayed or being moved. You can ‘hover’ a mouse pointer over something.

I am puzzled by your insistence that a mouse cursor is such a massive change to every element in the OS. It would touch and affect almost nothing in the system.

So how do you handle the mouse in the touch system? Do you treat it exactly like the finger? So your click is exactly like your touch? Launching apps is then a single-click, and drawing requires that you click and drag all around the screen? What happens when you reach the end of the screen? Fingers stop touching the screen, but the mouse pointer is now jammed up against the side. You can lift your finger and randomly access anywhere on the screen quickly, but with a mouse pointer, you’re confined to linear motion—you cannot simply go from here to there without crossing the intervening space. THEN you have the additional trouble of making the targets on the screen sufficiently accessible to a mouse.

People using mouse on any other system don't seem to be affected by how mouse cursors work. It's not a big deal.

The user interface guidelines would be a mess. Menu access would suddenly become necessary. You’d have to consider Fitts’ law all over again.

A mess? A small addendum on mouse cursors wouldn't be a big deal at all. What you aren't considering and continue to ignore is the horrible ergonomics when using the ASK. Reaching up to touch a screen is a horrible user experience.

If Apple were going to do all that work, there’d be no reason to duplicate it, which is why I say that mouse support won’t happen unless they merge the OSes into one. It’s a considerable amount of overhead for very little gain on their parts. From your perspective, it seems like you should just be able to move a mouse around and click, but from theirs (and by extension, the perspective of the app developers that would be on the hook for handling this interaction model), it means re-inspecting all sorts of assumptions that they’ve left as solved.

And yet this is already addressed in the iOS simulators. I use it all the time and it works just fine.

The ASK remains an optional accessory for the iPad. People are not forced to use it like they are pretty much forced to use a keyboard and trackpad with a Macbook. You are free to detach the iPad and use it as a tablet when it would be more conducive, or dock it and type away for when a dedicated keyboard is more suitable.

And here is my main point - a mouse would be an optional accessory, just like the ASK and people would not be forced to use it, wouldn't see any of those dreaded mouse cursors on the screen, and would have literally nothing in their user experience change. And those who do use a mouse would have the luxury of better ergonomics and a much more useful device.

It's up to you to decide which compromise you would rather make.

The thing is, I see no compromise. I'd use it. You wouldn't. We'd both be happy with the way our devices worked and I'd have the added bonus of a much more useful device.

 

[canesalato]

Not at all. I just want simple mouse support to make my iPad more useful to me. That isn't even close to convergence.



I don't really care how you or anyone else use your iPads, nor am I projecting anything about what you need or want. I just think my iPad can be more useful to me.



It is tablet first. Yet Apple offers the ASK to make typing easier. A mouse would make selection of things easier without having to reach out and touch the screen. Literally nothing needs to change for anything else.



I am puzzled by your insistence that a mouse cursor is such a massive change to every element in the OS. It would touch and affect almost nothing in the system.




People using mouse on any other system don't seem to be affected by how mouse cursors work. It's not a big deal.



A mess? A small addendum on mouse cursors wouldn't be a big deal at all. What you aren't considering and continue to ignore is the horrible ergonomics when using the ASK. Reaching up to touch a screen is a horrible user experience.



And yet this is already addressed in the iOS simulators. I use it all the time and it works just fine.



And here is my main point - a mouse would be an optional accessory, just like the ASK and people would not be forced to use it, wouldn't see any of those dreaded mouse cursors on the screen, and would have literally nothing in their user experience change. And those who do use a mouse would have the luxury of better ergonomics and a much more useful device.



The thing is, I see no compromise. I'd use it. You wouldn't. We'd both be happy with the way our devices worked and I'd have the added bonus of a much more useful device.

I admire your patience

 

[richpjr]

I admire your patience

Yeah, I’m about done with this topic. Sometimes it’s better to agree to disagree. The funny thing is as I type this response on an ASK with my 12.9 iPad and have to reach up to click the reply button and post reply button, it just reinforces how much better it could be...

 

[canesalato]

Yeah, I’m about done with this topic. Sometimes it’s better to agree to disagree. The funny thing is as I type this response on an ASK with my 12.9 iPad and have to reach up to click the reply button and post reply button, it just reinforces how much better it could be...

Given the lack of a trackpad I don’t use the smart keyboard at all, it just makes things worse. Have you ever tried to keep the iPad horizontal and just use the on-screen keyboard? For some CRAZY reason, it lacks arrow keys, but, apart from that, it’s so much better than using the Smart Keyboard.