New Mac Mini is out. Is (almost) everyone happy now?

[archer75]

I agree with a lot of what you've written however keep in mind the focus of my comments is for those who do want the capability of a higher capability GPU. The people who are praising the ability of the new Mac Mini because of its ability to use external GPUs through Thunderbolt. Or praising the general expansion capability of this Mini. There's been a lot of discussion about how expandable this new Mini is (and I agree, it's very capable). But then when one considers the space that expansion consumes it kind of defeats the goal of having a small, compact computer.

Apple will never do it if their users don't demand it of them. People seem all too willing to accept a small form factor computer that requires expansion outside of the chassis. Expansion that negates any benefit to having a small form factor computer.

People have demanded it. For many many years. This is nothing new. It just isn't going to happen.
We praise the egpu because we know apple will never build the desktop so them embracing the egpu as they are is a big deal.
It's great because I can get a cheaper laptop with better cooling and battery life and if I want to game on it I can just use a egpu. And that same egpu can work with a any laptop, desktop, etc. with USB-C. I'd much rather have that.

 

[Stephen.R]

Or praising the general expansion capability of this Mini.

I love the expansion capability, and I’m glad there are egpu options for those who want it. I however, have no interest or need for more graphics power than is needed to draw apps largely full of text on the screen.

Expansion that negates any benefit to having a small form factor computer.

Expansion that is catered to the individual.

 

[pl1984]

People have demanded it. For many many years. This is nothing new. It just isn't going to happen.
We praise the egpu because we know apple will never build the desktop so them embracing the egpu as they are is a big deal.
It's great because I can get a cheaper laptop with better cooling and battery life and if I want to game on it I can just use a egpu. And that same egpu can work with a any laptop, desktop, etc. with USB-C. I'd much rather have that.

Laptops are a completely different topic. While I disagree with Apple's thin at all cost designs for all of their laptop offerings one can at least understand why they're doing it. Not so for a computer that sits on your desk.
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I love the expansion capability, and I’m glad there are egpu options for those who want it. I however, have no interest or need for more graphics power than is needed to draw apps largely full of text on the screen.


Expansion that is catered to the individual.

I like the expansion options too. But when one starts to utilize it quickly becomes obvious that a small desktop system with internal expansion would fill the same requirements without the hassle of having a bunch of external devices.

I mentioned earlier I have a 6,1 Mac Pro. It's a very nice, compact system which offers (at least for its time) some great computing capability. But when I started attaching things to it I quickly discovered its compact design wasn't buying me any space savings. Just the computer along with a four disk thunderbolt enclosure consumes as much desk space as an average sized desktop. The total volume may be smaller than the desktop but the reduction in usable desktop space isn't.

I realize this is the Mini section of the site but, as mentioned earlier, many people are praising the expansion of this Mini (which I agree is considerable and I like it) which, when taken advantage of, negates the benefit of the Mini.

 

[partsofspeech]

The new Mini is very impressive. It was what I was waiting to happen a few years ago, but I lean toward a 2019 iMac now, so the waiting continues.

 

[Stephen.R]

Just the computer along with a four disk thunderbolt enclosure consumes as much desk space as an average sized desktop.

Right, but what if you want more than 4 drives. You're back to the same problem. It's the GPU issue again basically. Whatever you do, someone is constrained. So you minimise as much as possible, and let each do what they need.

when taken advantage of, negates the benefit of the Mini

There are two ways I see this, depending on your priorities.

Right now, sure. Given the advent of TB3 (remember this is the first mini in a long time that's really usable for pro users) I will be surprised if someone like OWC doesn't re-imagine the "Mini Stack" into a couple of different stackable enclosures. Perhaps a mini-sized one for a few M2s or 2.5" drives, a double-height for a single 3.5 SATA drive, a triple or quad-height one for multiple 3.5" drives. I don't know what size you'd need to fit PCI-e cards. Maybe they can go vertical (with ports on the bottom like the Cube had!?)
If there is one thing Mac-focussed accessory makers know how to do, it's integrate with Apple's industrial design. Akitio still make enclosures that mimic the design of the "sounds like a jet turbine in a hurricane" (aka cheese grater) PM/MPs.

Conversely (like i said it depends on your priorities and your context)

The other side is where you just don't want the extra stuff on your desk. I have an Orico 5-bay drive array, that sits on a shelf under my desk. Currently it's plugged into my MBP (obviously on top of the desk). Whenever Apple decides to grace Thailand with the ability to order new Mac Mini's, I'll get one, and it will go on my desk, with a couple of 24" displays. The drive bay will stay where it is, out of the way. The mini will still be easily accessible to me. While I might get a hypothetical stackable drive enclosure, I wouldn't buy a case big enough for multiple drives, GPUs, a big power supply to run it all, etc again (I had a G5 PM many moons ago). What I need is a fast CPU, lots of RAM and lots of storage. I have almost no need for expansion cards.

This is the flexibility you get with the mini. It's small, and can sit it where you want, and expand with just the things you want.

 

[hr10]

i am using the 2012 mac w/ dual ssd
should i upgrade to a faster ssd on the 2012 or get the 2018 mac mini
will i see huge speed bump? I only use it for browsing and sometimes using the photo app

 

[Hater]

Over to you, Hater...

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/06/apple_mac_linux_woes/

The problem is that, according to a posting on StackExchange, changing the Secure Boot option "makes no difference".

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/463422/2018-macbook-pro-tb-1tb-ssd

YMMV...

 

[Miat]

Thanks for those links. Will need to wait for the full story, of course, but that isn't good news.

In fairness to Apple, they do seem to take security seriously and there are probably good security reasons to lock things down as much as possible.

But it has thrown a spanner into my plans. That, plus the soldered in storage costs, are not a good combo.

 

[brentsg]

I’d say between the T2 chip, the RAM hassles, and the storage prices, I’m going to return my Mini. I was waiting for a long time too, but it comes up short.

I’ll move the rest of the data from my trusty 2010 Mac Pro to my NAS. I need to replace a couple apps yet, but I think it’s time to completely cut the cord.

 

[Miat]

RAM is not really an issue for me, as 16GB is enough and the Apple tax on that is relatively modest.

But the Apple tax on the storage, and it being soldered in, plus the T2 lockouts, are more serious.

 

[kasuja00]

I think that the new Mac Mini is a great machine. If I had to buy it, I would choose the 8GB/256GBSSD one.

I am an owner of Mac Mini Early 2009. I loved this machine with its nvidia 9400M on the chipset. For the time it was speedy.
I really liked the 2011 model with the mid-model with the discrete Radeon 6630M.
I'm sorry that this time there is not the option of a decent discrete GPU.

 

[Oculus Mentis]

The advantage is they are much more powerful than what could be included in a small form factor computer.

But then what is the advantage of a small form factor computer to those people who need additional storage, multiple GPUs or simply more than two or so memory slots in the first place? This of course concerns not just the Mac Mini itself but all Apple computer product line.

External modules are in general more expensive than internal ones because prices markups, the cost of an external enclosure, the supporting electronics, additional power supplies and cables. Just look at the Blackmagic eGPUS... We should also mention the 15%-20% performance degradation that any eGPU suffers because of the T3 bottleneck. It is a very real tax on performance.

Also,when it comes down to upgrades and/or expansions, many mention that some/most pros never tinker with their machines. Those same people however fail to recognize that for serious medium to large size organizations their "pro" community is actually made of system engineers, system administrators and then pro users. If the latter don't even know how to do a hard reset it doesn't mean that the other two "pro" categories don't need maximum freedom in configuring, managing and maintaining hardware on a large scale securely, efficiently and economically.

Open architectures have consistently proven their advantage over closed ones since since the advent of the PC in 1981. I love Apple but it's not because of luck that HP and Dell are the workstation market leaders in an established industry that does not really need solutions in search of a problem. Their margins are thin yes but it's to the advantage of keeping open standards and lower prices.

Apple strategy seems more dictated by the restrictions they imposed on themselves to keep their architecture closed. Mac OS is still the goose that lays the golden eggs but for how long?
It is not even clear (in revenue terms) if this direction is good for Apple but it is certainly not good for the industry they still claim to cater for (in words but not actions): the slow death of the Mac Pro is there for anyone to see.
A workstation is not a wheel that needs a disruptive reinventing unless you are a company that needs to fit the square peg of propping up a closed architecture in the round hole of an established industry based on open standards. News of the T2 chips lock downs are a very sad story if they cannot be bypassed.

 

[StellarVixen]

https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/11/apple-t2-chip-cant-boot-linux

Notice how no one in the comments says that this is not true. The writer of the article initially said that Linux cannot be installed on MacBook Pro, and then he corrected himself.
[doublepost=1541588390][/doublepost]Another potential downside:

 

[archer75]

But then what is the advantage of a small form factor computer to those people who need additional storage, multiple GPUs or simply more than two or so memory slots in the first place?

Then perhaps this isn't the product for them? If people have different needs than this product why do they even bother looking at a product that doesn't fit their needs? Find the one that does. I could complain all day that a hammer isn't a screw driver but that isn't going to change things. People are silly.

 

[Oculus Mentis]

Then perhaps this isn't the product for them? If people have different needs than this product why do they even bother looking at a product that doesn't fit their needs? Find the one that does. I could complain all day that a hammer isn't a screw driver but that isn't going to change things. People are silly.

True unless your choice is limited to Mac OS only and you care not to break its licensing terms.

 

[bigpoppamac31]

Event was a bit of a yawner. They TRIUMPHANTLY presented glorious new MacBook Airs and Mac minis...oh, which they'd let wither on the vine since (essentially) 2010 and 2014, respectively. Woohoo, Apple!! And even then, they seemed about 1/10th as excited about the Mac updates as the iPad Pro. And we didn't get any more Mac news than that. No hint or preview of Mac Pro or expected iMac updates.

Mac mini looked good to me at first...until I looked at the pricing. Storage pricing is UNREAL. NVMe SSD "gumsticks" packing 2500MB/s are cheaper every day, with 1TB for under $300 now, but to upgrade from 128GB (seriously?) to 1TB on the mini costs EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLARS. And I'm sure it's Apple-proprietary, soldered stuff. I'm really curious about why we cannot have non-proprietary-connector, socketed SSDs in any Apple products these days. M.2 is tiny and is everywhere now, yet we have locked-in storage in Apple-land.

Anyway, the tech and potential performance is exciting for Mac mini, but when a base 4-core is configured w/ what I'd consider a reasonable complement of 16GB RAM and 256GB SSD, the price skyrockets to $1200. Or $1400 for a more useful 512GB. And even the base price is $300 or 60% higher than the traditional starting price point for the "economical Mac" of $500.

I'm glad to see updates to Mac mini and MacBook Air finally, but they act like it's the Second Coming and charge accordingly.

I agree about the soldered SSD. It doesn't need to be that way on a desktop (or even laptop really). Especially with the slim stick versions they have now. Apple could have easy put a connector or two on the logic board and allowed users to upgrade as they desired. If both the ram and SSD were upgradeable that would be so much easier. The SSD sticks are plenty fast anyways so it's not like soldering then on makes it any better. Sadly all Apple products are priced too high these days.

 

[archer75]

True unless your choice is limited to Mac OS only and you care not to break its licensing terms.

Then people need to adapt the things they do to work in the system they locked themselves in to.

 

[pl1984]

Then perhaps this isn't the product for them? If people have different needs than this product why do they even bother looking at a product that doesn't fit their needs? Find the one that does. I could complain all day that a hammer isn't a screw driver but that isn't going to change things. People are silly.

The problem is, which was my point in raising the issue in the first place, Apple doesn't offer an alternative, more suitable product. They only give us a hammer when a screw driver would be more appropriate. People have little choice but to shoehorn solutions using less than ideal products.

Apple packed the new Mini with some great expansion capability into a nice, small form factor. They are even extolling how much they've packed into such a compact form. Having done so I assume the recognize the benefits of being able to expand a system. I just find it ironic they're proud of making a small footprint computer with excellent expansion capability which, when utilized, negates the benefit of having a small footprint computer.

 

[Stephen.R]

when utilized, negates the benefit of having a small footprint computer

I have a laptop on my desk (soon to be a Mac mini) a couple of 'portable' drives pushed over to the side, and a 5-bay drive array on a shelf under the desk. The mini is perfect to go on a desk. Anything that fits 4+ drives is not. Anything that fits a full-sized GPU arguably, is not.

 

[pl1984]

I have a laptop on my desk (soon to be a Mac mini) a couple of 'portable' drives pushed over to the side, and a 5-bay drive array on a shelf under the desk. The mini is perfect to go on a desk. Anything that fits 4+ drives is not. Anything that fits a full-sized GPU arguably, is not.

Which negates the small form factor of the Mini.

 

[archer75]

The problem is, which was my point in raising the issue in the first place, Apple doesn't offer an alternative, more suitable product. They only give us a hammer when a screw driver would be more appropriate. People have little choice but to shoehorn solutions using less than ideal products.

Because most people who buy the mini aren't looking for that. Those people likely buy a imac, mac pro or something else entirely. Others are completely happy with the external expandability.
This is what apple sells, if that doesn't work for your needs that's ok, just go find what does. It's really that simple. This product is just not for you. "But I want a screw driver!" Then stop going on about the hammer and go buy one.
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Which negates the small form factor of the Mini.

I have a 5 bay drobo on my desk. Does that negate the large form factor of my CM stacker case under it?
I'm about to add another one. Even though my CM stacker that can hold more than a dozen drives. And a server case that can hold 22. And a cube case that can hold 8. I prefer the drobo.

 

[Stephen.R]

Which negates the small form factor of the Mini.

Did you not read the part you highlighted that says on a shelf under the desk.

Because it's separate, they can be... separated.

 

[pl1984]

Because most people who buy the mini aren't looking for that. Those people likely buy a imac, mac pro or something else entirely. Others are completely happy with the external expandability.

Then why the emphasis on expandability?

This is what apple sells, if that doesn't work for your needs that's ok, just go find what does. It's really that simple. This product is just not for you. "But I want a screw driver!" Then stop going on about the hammer and go buy one.

Which current Apple product offers the ability to utilize additional internal storage along with the ability to install internal GPUs?
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Did you not read the part you highlighted that says on a shelf under the desk.

Because it's separate, they can be... separated.

Yes, I did read that. Which is why I made the statement I did. The form factor of the Mini is lost when you combine it with your external storage. Taken together the two consume the same space as a medium sized tower so why can't Apple offer such a system instead of forcing people to consume the same space using separate components?

 

[Stephen.R]

Taken together the two consume the same space as a medium sized tower

Which... would not fit on a desk (as well as the Mac mini does)

Also, if i wanted more than a couple of hard drives, I'd still need the external case.

No one is arguing that the mac mini is a tardis that makes things magically smaller. It splits things up - you can have your mini on your desk, where it's easy to get to if you want.

If you happen to have extra accessories like an eGPU or drive bays or what have you, they can be positioned however you like, with a cable between them.

 

[archer75]

Then why the emphasis on expandability?

Because it can be for those who wish it in the way it offers it.

Which current Apple product offers the ability to utilize additional internal storage along with the ability to install internal GPUs?

None. Which is why apple products are not for these people. You either accept it as is and adapt what you do to fit it or you move on to something else. Simple as that.

If someone doesn't offer the product I want with the features I want I don't whine about it. I move on to something else that will fit my needs.

Look, I get exactly what you're saying. I can adapt what I do and be happy with the mini. And I suspect most people can as well. But it's not the product for everyone and that is ok too. The desktop is dying, the PC market is declining, everyone is switching to tablets and phones and more and more people don't have or use desktops in their homes anymore. Things change.