What are you talking about? HP has been shipping W-3200 sysstems for WEEKS now. If you had ordered on mid-november you could have had one on Dec 2-3 a whole week before Apple even took orders. They shipped before Apple did. Go take a gander that the Z6. It is Dell that is stuck in the mud at the moment; not HP. Right now HPs ship dates are after Apples ( Dec 31 versus jan 13th ) if order right now, but HP already has stuff in the field in production.
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MP 7,1 New MP - it's not for you. So who is it for?
- Thread starter wallah
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What are you talking about? HP has been shipping W-3200 sysstems for WEEKS now. If you had ordered on mid-november you could have had one on Dec 2-3 a whole week before Apple even took orders. They shipped before Apple did. Go take a gander that the Z6. It is Dell that is stuck in the mud at the moment; not HP. Right now HPs ship dates are after Apples ( Dec 31 versus jan 13th ) if order right now, but HP already has stuff in the field in production.
Hmm, so with about 50 posts in, this is who it's for. Actual users (with apologies for botching terminology), not speculating who:
digital artist/print designer (2)
motion designer (2)
photographers producing large-scale print, morphing to LCD displays (2)
3D mapping and scientific modelling
cash to burn
3d graphics
Logic Pro user
music production studio
temporarily at least, some successful pro YouTubers
And people not buying:
still photographer
web developer
tax advisors to prospective MP buyers
Air Force for 1,760 units looking at Condor II program (PS 3s were only $400 after all)
So far, no one getting a maxed out $50k one, that will admit it anyway (maybe that guy looking to attach a security cable??).
It's early yet but I thought there might be someone working at a gaming studio or developing VR/AR that heard their boss say 10 will be here in January. Anyone waiting for the rack option?
What other pros are seriously thinking about one?
digital artist/print designer (2)
motion designer (2)
photographers producing large-scale print, morphing to LCD displays (2)
3D mapping and scientific modelling
cash to burn
3d graphics
Logic Pro user
music production studio
temporarily at least, some successful pro YouTubers
And people not buying:
still photographer
web developer
tax advisors to prospective MP buyers
Air Force for 1,760 units looking at Condor II program (PS 3s were only $400 after all)
So far, no one getting a maxed out $50k one, that will admit it anyway (maybe that guy looking to attach a security cable??).
It's early yet but I thought there might be someone working at a gaming studio or developing VR/AR that heard their boss say 10 will be here in January. Anyone waiting for the rack option?
What other pros are seriously thinking about one?
The entire objective the start off this thread was to enumerate who is actually buying this system because folks can't image who . You can't "find" those folks and then immediately dismiss them.
If there are 1M content creators on Youtube and 0.1% of the shoot on RED that is 1,000 potential buyers right there. If Apple is only selling 50K/yr of the Mac Pros per year that would be 2% of that total. That wouldn't be the "whole market" but it is a small chunk. If the > 4K video camera raw content generation goes up every year for next 4 years that is a growing market that will just get larger. Blackmagic has a 6k camera that is less the $2K. That will spur growth in the "grossly bulky" camera content market too.
Atmos recorders can do PreRes RAW on a number of camera and recorder combinations. https://www.atomos.com/proresraw
As these cameras and recorders get more affordable there will be more content of that size. that increases the total addressable market for this Mac Pro.
Why would those other publications do a better job in an equally as timely manor ?
The other problem with HP's current position is that even single processor versions (at the high end) are charged a nearly 200% premium for the Xeon Scalable version of the same processor to preserve the possibility of a second CPU - regardless of whether or not the end user cares.
As of right now, a 28-core processor on a Z6 (Xeon Platinum) will cost you $19640 for the upgrade... Apple will sell you a faster 28-core for $7000. I suspect Apple will eventually offer a 28-core for $4000 (and a 24-core for $3000)- the non high-memory versions. If they don't, OWC will be happy to do it for them.
Yes, HP could offer the 28-core Xeon-W on their motherboards, since they have up to 16-core Xeon-W chips running - but they don't. Can they not get them (Intel isn't making many, and Apple's got the few in existence)?
As of right now, a 28-core processor on a Z6 (Xeon Platinum) will cost you $19640 for the upgrade... Apple will sell you a faster 28-core for $7000. I suspect Apple will eventually offer a 28-core for $4000 (and a 24-core for $3000)- the non high-memory versions. If they don't, OWC will be happy to do it for them.
Yes, HP could offer the 28-core Xeon-W on their motherboards, since they have up to 16-core Xeon-W chips running - but they don't. Can they not get them (Intel isn't making many, and Apple's got the few in existence)?
"MacStadium's Brian Stucki ordered a couple of new Mac Pros right when Apple began accepting purchases, ..."
https://www.macrumors.com/2019/12/12/mac-pro-orders-begin-shipping/
Every single cloud hosting service for Macs has probably ordered at least one. (at least the ones that do whole system and/or paravirtilization via macOS variation of Bhyve. Folks who are hard core into ESXi/VMware probably not. without more info/support. ). If only as a stub if Apple hasn't given them access to a beta version of the Rack Mount version. The cloud services won't by the tower version on large numbers but the rack version probably will. Depending upon the scale of their operations development team, several of those folks will probably get one too. (just trying out configurations in a closed controlled environment is worth it. )
Those 256GB storage drives are a good fit for big enough for a hypervisor (or byhe foundation ). [ for more than "everything and kitchen sink" application folder users. ]
Are there 1,000s of hosting services? No. Do they have a high multiplier effect on Macs units they buy? Yes. A pretty good way of raising the costs for an expensive machine is to get 3-4 separate users pay for it either part time or taking turns.
Company that to the machine run consolidation on the local LAN as opposed in the distance cloud. Same boat of probably at least one to see if it works. ( perhaps on a short term lease to kick the tires. Which is another set of buyers. Folks who lease them out. ).
I'm waiting for Redshift/Octane X Metal performance feedback. Based on that I'll either go all-in on GPU rendering, or if performance/features are not production ready after a reasonable amount of time or significantly inferior to CUDA, I'll spec out a Mac Pro for CPU rendering with Arnold or Corona. So it's a wait and see for me. In the meantime I have a 5,1 running a GTX1080i which is still a pretty great machine running both CPU and GPU renderers - for any big renders I use PixelPlow.
Loads of us here are running internal Nvidia GPUs in the Mac Pro 4,1 and 5,1. Check out my thread about GPU rendering on the 7,1. Windows isn't an option for me because Windows.
OK, you've convinced me that the target is YouTube bloggers. Which takes us right back to my first comment in the thread:
Apparently it's for YouTube bloggers as, as far as I can tell, they're the only one's who received test units from Apple.
Such a system seems overkill for such users but Apple knows their business so who am I to question them?
Ah, I see. I wasn’t sure what the status of CUDA rendering was on MacOS at the moment, given Nvidia’s wavering support over the years. It seems kind of crazy to be working on an almost 9 year old Westmere CPU if your work is CPU bound in the least (the ‘best’ processor upgrade I could find for the 5,1 was a Xeon X5690).
Do you mean to say that Windows isn’t an option because it isn’t performant on similarly priced hardware, or that you have a MacOS specific plugin / workflow that won’t migrate across OSes?
The Z6 system uses technology which was available at the time it was introduced (over two years ago). Likewise the Mac Pro is using technology which is available at the time of its introduction. During that two years Intel has developed more capable and, I think we can thank AMD for this, lower cost. Is it any surprise the Mac Pro uses a processor which the Z-series, at least for the time being, does not?
Regarding your last paragraph. If you need 28 cores you don't have to purchase the Z6 with a single 28 core processor. You can purchase one with dual 14 core processors which cost $8,120 instead of $19,640 for the single 28 core processor. As Intel scales up production on the new processors it seems reasonable to conclude HP will offer them in their systems. However there's no pressing need to do so at the moment.
All this said I can't believe we're having a discussion about 18 - 56 core desktop systems! My how times have changed
EDIT: Replaced the entire second paragraph with a discussion of dual 14 core CPUs.
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So I'm gandering - https://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/business-solutions/hp-z6-workstation--1#!&tab=vao
... and all I see is a system that uses 1 or 2 "Scalable Xeon" processors (that's the Silver/Gold/Platinum range, not the W-3xxx series in the MP) and tops out at 768K RAM (or less without adding a second processor) and significantly less PCIe slots/bandwidth than the MP.
Edit: Sorry - I've just spotted the Xeon-W options buried in the long laundry list of processors. It still loses the Top Trumps game to the MP on PCIe and RAM capacity, though.
Note that I'm not saying that Apple have an exclusive on the W-3xxx and that nobody else uses it - just that they are early adopters, and they've built the MP from scratch around that processor range's capability. I'm sure there are a few other complete W-3xxx systems out there, and I know there's at least one motherboard that offers getting-on-for-MP level slottage.
My point is that its currently hard to find online-configurable examples of PC Workstation that match the MPs expansion potential at a similar price because most of the contenders need an expensive second Xeon to do that but that will most likely change over the next few months. Oh, and those "expensive dual Xeon" systems can have twice the cores of the MP. (Plus, a whole other point about how that expansion potential is academic if you're not looking to build a quad GPU, 1TB RAM monster - I note the Z6s start below $2000, although they can be configured to infinity and beyond...)
Perhaps I should apologise since I've obviously confused people with a post that was neither "OMG!! squee!! The New Mac is MAGICAL!!!" or "Sack Tim Cook NOW!!!"
The new MP is a niche product for people who need a 12-28 core standalone, multi-GPU workstation and are committed to Mac-only software/formats - in which case the economics may add up.
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One can purchase a Z6 with two 14 core processors instead of a single 28 core processor. To do so costs ~$8K...significantly lower than the single 28 core processor cost of ~$20K
I'm getting $9570 by the time I add 32GB RAM, a 256GB SSD, 10Gb Ethernet and Thunderbolt (and that's without trying to find a comparable GPU - the base 2GB Vram Quadro certainly isn't it).
C.f. the Mac Pro, at $13,000 once you add the $7k 28 core option - and that price tag is almost entirely accounted for by Apple's use of the -M variant of the processor to get the support for 1.5TB RAM - which (if you look on ark.intel.com) almost doubles the price c.f. the regular 28 core one. The Z6 tops out at 768GB RAM (oh, the humanity!) and the Mac Pro still beats it on number and bandwidth of PCIe slots.
Don't get me wrong, though: you get a computer to do the job in front of you, not to win at Top Trumps - and, unless you're deeply committed to the MacOS ecosystem, the huge benefit of PC hardware is the choice - such as not paying $3000 for the possibility of adding $30,000 worth of RAM if you don't need it. (Or, on the other foot, paying $40k for 56 cores if that's what you really need).
...but if you do try and match the Mac Pro spec-by-spec then - at the moment - you end up in the same price ballpark, without the "new Mac smell" and "only Sudso(r) has SuperSuds(tm) Tech" factors (MPX, T2, Thunderbolt) - and if not you've probably missed something out. My point is: (a) that may change as PC makers build new machines around the W-series and (b) that's not how to choose a computer.
AKA a little over $1k more than the 28 core option from Apple. People won't stand for the HP tax, all the professional users are going to abandon them for Apple unless they provide the exact machine I want for $2500. HP is Doooooomed!
I work for two companies, both will be buying Mac Pros.
The first company I work for (my regular 40hr / week) job will be buying two rack mounted Mac Pros to serve as virtualization clusters. Our company produces security software that runs on many different systems, including macOS. In order to build on macOS, you need to either have a Mac or a Mac VM. In order to have a Mac VM, you need Apple hardware. This is the first system that Apple has released in a while that specifically targets our needs and use case. I believe the office is going to buy two $26,000 USD systems.
The second company I work for will be buying at least one workstation. This is an Aerospace company that runs simulation software for the theoretical performance of rocket engines. Many of the libraries and binaries that we use are UNIX command line, but have fallen out of active development. I maintain them on macOS for the company. My iMac Pro will probably be fine for a few more years to go, but I know the chief rocket scientist's machine is still a 2010 Mac Pro and he is overdue for an upgrade.
Heavy users do indeed exist on macOS, outside of Logic / Final Cut.
The first company I work for (my regular 40hr / week) job will be buying two rack mounted Mac Pros to serve as virtualization clusters. Our company produces security software that runs on many different systems, including macOS. In order to build on macOS, you need to either have a Mac or a Mac VM. In order to have a Mac VM, you need Apple hardware. This is the first system that Apple has released in a while that specifically targets our needs and use case. I believe the office is going to buy two $26,000 USD systems.
The second company I work for will be buying at least one workstation. This is an Aerospace company that runs simulation software for the theoretical performance of rocket engines. Many of the libraries and binaries that we use are UNIX command line, but have fallen out of active development. I maintain them on macOS for the company. My iMac Pro will probably be fine for a few more years to go, but I know the chief rocket scientist's machine is still a 2010 Mac Pro and he is overdue for an upgrade.
Heavy users do indeed exist on macOS, outside of Logic / Final Cut.
It's for the people who are paying even more money for a similarly-configured Dell Precision 7920 or HP Z8 G4. In the below video Max Tech walks through many different configurations comparing these machines:
This is incorrect. I am a data scientist by trade and an amateur photographer on weekend. Most modern photography software programs can use parallel processing. That's why I upgraded my Mac Pro 6,1 from 4 cores to 10 cores. It cuts half of the time out of my work flow.
Mac Pro delivery dates are all over the place, they're clearly moving volume.
I feel like the meme we're supposed to go with is that no one is buying these things, Apple missed the mark, and there is currently a factory in Texas where everyone is sitting around playing checkers because they're not selling.
In addition to everyone in this thread talking about why they're getting one, volume is clearly moving. We'll see what happens after pent up demand is done, but Apple can clearly move Mac Pros at this price.
I feel like the meme we're supposed to go with is that no one is buying these things, Apple missed the mark, and there is currently a factory in Texas where everyone is sitting around playing checkers because they're not selling.
In addition to everyone in this thread talking about why they're getting one, volume is clearly moving. We'll see what happens after pent up demand is done, but Apple can clearly move Mac Pros at this price.
You speak with forked tongue.
The sentence before the comma, and after the comma, contradict each other.
If demand (e.g. order lead time) plummets after the introductory bubble, then clearly Apple can't move them at this price.
The G4 Cube had huge lead times at introduction, yet we know how badly that turned out.
While it may be true, HP and Dell also sell affordable desktop PCs. From Dell's website, one can get Alienware Aurora Ryzen Edition Gaming desktop for $2900 with the following specs:
AMD Ryzen 9 3950X 16-core CPU
Nvidia RTX 2080 8GB video card
32GB RAM
1TB NVMe SSD
Liquid cooling light chassis
But the Mac Pro isn't a gaming computer. Specs don't tell everything. Is the gaming computer as quiet as the Mac Pro? Will it run eight or more hours a day without overheating the CPU? Can you go to a store and get technical support? I don't know the answers to these questions, but there is more to the value of a computer than a comparison of price and specs.
I purchased: 16-core, 32gb (upgrading to 192gb 3rd party, 2tb ssd, single pro Vega II.
+ XDR display (ordered both versions and will return whichever one I don’t like).
My business (100% of my income for 10+ years)
1) Still photographer (50% revenue) - sports, adventure, active lifestyle markets. Primarily Advertising work but some fine art print work also. Shooting on Sony A7RIV (60mp+)
Processing in Lightroom, CaptureOne, photoshop. (Machine not required for this part of my business but will be a pleasant upgrade coming from 2013 MP. CaptureOne and LR both advantage of cores, gpu’s)
2) Video production (50% of business in same market) . I direct and DP short film, commercial brand work. I own and shoot on Red dragon 6k, Sony, phantom, DJI and other cameras depending on needs of the project. I do some editing and moving into more editing (story side) as I direct bigger projects. I imagine I’ll move into 8k shooting in the next 1-3 years but not in a rush. I’m more interested in good stories than camera specs. A fast, trouble free computer like the new Mac Pro helps me stay in my creative space/flow state; and hopefully less time spent waiting for renders or building proxies or other time sucking, non creative work.
Software: premiere, AE, Davinci, will experiment with FCX soon.
3) Stock. Small part of my business but I plan to have an assistant editor use the machine to quickly pull clips from footage I’ve shot over the last 5-7 years to put on the market through Getty, Adobe and Film supply.
I plan to use the machine for 5-8 years, upgrading internals as needed.
An iMac Pro would probably do what I need, but long-term the Mac Pro is a better investment.
The XDR display isn’t necessary per se, but A) visual content is my life, not 1’s and 0’s and working on a display that stimulates my creativity as I hope the XDR does, is worth it to me and B) I will likely start more HDR work with my productions in the coming year.
I debated for a long time if I could justify this purchase as a smart business decision (best ROI). At this point, it’s 80% need and 20% want (moving to 100% need within a year or two), but I also value time with my family and personal interests outside of my business. If I can get in and edit/create more productively, that's time saved for other things. Building computers isn’t my hobby. Reading tech forums isn’t my hobby. I work in Mac environment and need things to work when I’m ready to get behind the screen, plain and simple.
I’ll also say that business success has never been based on what equipment I own. I don’t market based on tech, but rather on creating powerful brand stories & content, customer service and client confidence that we deliver results every time. tools are tools. I do look forward to using this tool as a way to stay in a more creative space for a longer period of time (faster renders, processing, story building, and visually stunning screen to look at).
+ XDR display (ordered both versions and will return whichever one I don’t like).
My business (100% of my income for 10+ years)
1) Still photographer (50% revenue) - sports, adventure, active lifestyle markets. Primarily Advertising work but some fine art print work also. Shooting on Sony A7RIV (60mp+)
Processing in Lightroom, CaptureOne, photoshop. (Machine not required for this part of my business but will be a pleasant upgrade coming from 2013 MP. CaptureOne and LR both advantage of cores, gpu’s)
2) Video production (50% of business in same market) . I direct and DP short film, commercial brand work. I own and shoot on Red dragon 6k, Sony, phantom, DJI and other cameras depending on needs of the project. I do some editing and moving into more editing (story side) as I direct bigger projects. I imagine I’ll move into 8k shooting in the next 1-3 years but not in a rush. I’m more interested in good stories than camera specs. A fast, trouble free computer like the new Mac Pro helps me stay in my creative space/flow state; and hopefully less time spent waiting for renders or building proxies or other time sucking, non creative work.
Software: premiere, AE, Davinci, will experiment with FCX soon.
3) Stock. Small part of my business but I plan to have an assistant editor use the machine to quickly pull clips from footage I’ve shot over the last 5-7 years to put on the market through Getty, Adobe and Film supply.
I plan to use the machine for 5-8 years, upgrading internals as needed.
An iMac Pro would probably do what I need, but long-term the Mac Pro is a better investment.
The XDR display isn’t necessary per se, but A) visual content is my life, not 1’s and 0’s and working on a display that stimulates my creativity as I hope the XDR does, is worth it to me and B) I will likely start more HDR work with my productions in the coming year.
I debated for a long time if I could justify this purchase as a smart business decision (best ROI). At this point, it’s 80% need and 20% want (moving to 100% need within a year or two), but I also value time with my family and personal interests outside of my business. If I can get in and edit/create more productively, that's time saved for other things. Building computers isn’t my hobby. Reading tech forums isn’t my hobby. I work in Mac environment and need things to work when I’m ready to get behind the screen, plain and simple.
I’ll also say that business success has never been based on what equipment I own. I don’t market based on tech, but rather on creating powerful brand stories & content, customer service and client confidence that we deliver results every time. tools are tools. I do look forward to using this tool as a way to stay in a more creative space for a longer period of time (faster renders, processing, story building, and visually stunning screen to look at).
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They're only offering up to 64 GB memory in it. How much 3rd party memory can I stuff in it? Is it ECC, or can I use 3rd party ECC memory? PCI slots? Channels? It's showing me $3630 for the above configuration, how do I get the $2900 model? No keyboard or mouse, and how do I unconfigure the blinkenlighty case I don't need?
The issue is not $2900 or $3630. The issue is that Apple does not offer competitive products in this price range. As an enthusiast, this is the price range that interests me. I can get much more powerful computing resources from work.
I was one of those people waiting in line to get a Mac Pro 6,1 when it first came out. Before that, it was generation and generation of Dell computers.