nMP 12 Core gets a good clock cleaning from cMP

[MacVidCards]

Not really a "clock cleaning" but the older MP beat it fractionally in all tests. Hyperbole much?

Why is this so hard to understand?

A 2009 machine that had the ability to be upgraded BEAT a 2013/4 machine that is stuck forever with what it has. The nMP is stuck, no more CPUs or GPUs or PCIE SSDs coming to make it faster. Done. Or do you think bog slow TB2 is going to let you speed it up?

It's older brother beats it already, and more and faster parts are still coming for it.

Going to get even more embarrassing.

 

[h9826790]

A 2009 machine that had the ability to be upgraded BEAT a 2013/4 machine that is stuck forever with what it has. The nMP is stuck, no more CPUs or GPUs or PCIE SSDs coming to make it faster. Done.

I agree that the GPU on 6,1 is not upgradable at this moment, but not sure about the CPU.

The 4,1 or 5,1 seems no more new CPU option, the best we can get is X5690. However, the CPU on 6,1 is proved self upgradable at this moment (but looks really complicated to me). There may be a faster CPU option for 6,1 later on.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

I agree that the GPU on 6,1 is not upgradable at this moment, but not sure about the CPU.

The 4,1 or 5,1 seems no more new CPU option, the best we can get is X5690. However, the CPU on 6,1 is proved self upgradable at this moment (but looks really complicated to me). There may be a faster CPU option for 6,1 later on.

You can already change the CPU.

Only things up for debate is the GPU and PCIe SSD's at the moment.

 

[mcnallym]

Whilst the CPU is upgradeable, (OWC offer a program for this) the nMP already uses the currently fastest 12 core E5-2600v2 available ( and the nMP won the CPU focused tests )

E5-2600v3 is supposed to be different although still a skt 2011 in that won't just drop into an existing system, so I suspect would be a complete new CPU board and CPU. Intel seem to be going with a tick tock approach where you can drop in ( possibly with a BIOS/EFI update ) the tock approach, ie you could drop an Ivybridge into a Sandybridge system. The E5-2600v2 is already at the Tock so I wouldn't expect to be able to drop in a v3 into the nMP.

Unless Intel do an Ivybridge refresh similar to what they have just done with Haswell to tide over till the next CPU's launch then cannot see faster 12 cores coming out for the nMP.

In terms of the SSD, then other vendors such as OWC are working on 3rd Party LSI based SSD's that will fit the nMP. As such if OWC are going to sell 3rd Party SSD's then there is no reason why they wouldn't sell faster ones in the future as SSD's improve.

Apple has made GPU's available for older Mac Pro's in the past, ie when the 2010 model launched then they made the 5770 and 5870 available as Add-In Cards for the 2009/2008 etc and people found that worked in the older Mac Pros as well.

As such no-one can really say for sure that there won't be faster GPU cards available, just that at the moment there are none, however as we are still a v1 of the nMP. We won't realistically know until the v2 of the nMP launchs with presumably faster GPU's etc and see what Apple does then, to see if it makes available the faster GPU's to users.

 

[MacVidCards]

Yes, let's keep waiting for Godot

Have a look, we were comparing 12 core to 12 core.

Nothing to upgrade to CPU wise.

Does any rational person REALLY believe that Apple will be releasing new GPUs for these? Would require 2 completely different PCBs using the soon to be obsolete TB2. Anyone? Why in the heck would they?

Keep dreaming, but cMP can already be upgraded to be faster, and THERE IS NOTHING TO BE UPGRADED IN 2013 to catch up. It's already slower.

 

[iBug2]

Going to get even more embarrassing.

This I agree with. Just the subject in my mind is different.

 

[theSeb]

Have a look, we were comparing 12 core to 12 core.

Nothing to upgrade to CPU wise.

Does any rational person REALLY believe that Apple will be releasing new GPUs for these? Would require 2 completely different PCBs using the soon to be obsolete TB2. Anyone? Why in the heck would they?

Keep dreaming, but cMP can already be upgraded to be faster, and THERE IS NOTHING TO BE UPGRADED IN 2013 to catch up. It's already slower.

You're a funny guy.

 

[h9826790]

Does any rational person REALLY believe that Apple will be releasing new GPUs for these?

TBO, even though it's possible, but I don't think so. The nMP just like the iMac / Macbook, it's upgradable, but not easy at all. At least not as easy as install the PCIe card in the oMP. And Apple basically consider this kind of machine is non-upgradable so far (or not user upgradable).

I only believe that Apple will sell RAM or may be PCIe SSD for user upgrade with seriously mark up price. But I don't think they will offer a new GPU for user to upgrade the 6,1 by themselves.

3rd party option is always possible. However, due to the uniqueness of the nMP. I don't think any ordinary 3rd party supplier can offer parts like GPU specially made for the nMP with a reasonable price.

 

[calaverasgrande]

Why is this so hard to understand?

A 2009 machine that had the ability to be upgraded BEAT a 2013/4 machine that is stuck forever with what it has. The nMP is stuck, no more CPUs or GPUs or PCIE SSDs coming to make it faster. Done. Or do you think bog slow TB2 is going to let you speed it up?

It's older brother beats it already, and more and faster parts are still coming for it.

Going to get even more embarrassing.

Do you think you are going to sell more video cards with this nonsense?
it has been abundantly demonstrated that you CAN upgrade the CPU.
There are certainly things to be said about the lack of upgradability of the GPU. Yes currently there are no upgrades in channel for that part. but it is removable and very easily at that.
I find it hard to believe that Apple engineered a removable case, with a removable video card assembly mounted in a slot and secured by one screw, simply to accommodate manufacturing.
There are several simpler and cheaper ways to accomplish that.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Question:

Can anyone with a D700 + iStatmenu make a screenshot of Ampere usage when Furmark is running?

it has been abundantly demonstrated that you CAN upgrade the CPU.
There are certainly things to be said about the lack of upgradability of the GPU. Yes currently there are no upgrades in channel for that part. but it is removable and very easily at that.

You can upgrade the nMP to a CPU who is not faster then a oMP with Dual 3,46 Ghz. Perhaps Intel release faster CPUs in the future, but the PSU and coolingsystem in the nMP is very limited. GPUs or CPUs with a higher TDP = Problem.

 

[paulrbeers]

Apple has made GPU's available for older Mac Pro's in the past, ie when the 2010 model launched then they made the 5770 and 5870 available as Add-In Cards for the 2009/2008 etc and people found that worked in the older Mac Pros as well.

I think this is very important. Apple isn't going to Can the nMP and redesign it completely after one model. Generally any Apple computer design is good for at least 3-4 iterations (Mac Pro used basically the same design for 5, the motherboard layout was about the only major change from 3,1 to 4,1).

Based on that, we can assume that the Haswell Ep and the Broadwell EP will both use the same layout thus using the same proprietary PCIE connector. Based on the OpenCL benchmarks of AMD over Nvidia, we can probably assume that the next FirePro cards in the Haswell EP based nMP (v2) will most likely be derived from the Radeon R9 290. IF Apple doesn't release them, you know that there will be Apple resellers who will sell the cards for use in the nMP v1.

With all of that said, the nMP v2 will be the one to buy from a CPU upgrade standpoint since you will most likely be able to upgrade to Broadwell EP when those chips are released.

 

[mcnallym]

Question:

Can anyone with a D700 + iStatmenu make a screenshot of Ampere usage when Furmark is running?



You can upgrade the nMP to a CPU who is not faster then a oMP with Dual 3,46 Ghz. Perhaps Intel release faster CPUs in the future, but the PSU and coolingsystem in the nMP is very limited. GPUs or CPUs with a higher TDP = Problem.

That is interesting that you say the CPU in the nMP is slower then the 3.46GHz Dual CPU's in a cMP.

http://www.barefeats.com/tube01.html

would disagree

From the original article as well

The 2013 Mac Pro 12-core is faster in the two CPU intensive tests like the Resolve export and FCPX export. The 2010 Mac Pro edged it out in five of the six tests that stressed both CPU and GPU such as Resolve playback and FCPX video effects rendering.

 

[peabo]

Question:
You can upgrade the nMP to a CPU who is not faster then a oMP with Dual 3,46 Ghz. Perhaps Intel release faster CPUs in the future, but the PSU and coolingsystem in the nMP is very limited. GPUs or CPUs with a higher TDP = Problem.

The 2.7GHz 12 core nMP is actually faster than the old Mac Pro with dual 6-core 3.46GHz upgrades in terms of CPU power due to the generation gap between them and the much higher turbo-boost of the Ivy-Bridge chips. The cooling system works very well even with both GPUs and the CPU working at full capacity. Getting the CPU to throttle down takes a lot of effort and it never drops below 2.7GHz, rarely even below 3.0GHz.

So in terms of CPU power, the older Mac Pro will never be able to catch up, but there isn't a massive gap between them at the moment. The upgraded 3.46GHz old Mac Pro is pretty comparable to the new 2.7GHz model in a lot of areas. No reason to get rid of it just yet if you've spent the cash to upgrade it to that level.

When the next revision of the nMP comes around though, the gap will widen much more significantly and from then onward, they'll start to become obsolete in the same way that a 1,1 or 2,1 with a 290x in it right now is. The ability to install GPU upgrades can only take you so far.

It's good to see that they still have a little bit of juice left in them for the moment though.

 

[beaker7]

The 2.7GHz 12 core nMP is actually faster than the old Mac Pro with dual 6-core 3.46GHz upgrades in terms of CPU power due to the generation gap between them and the much higher turbo-boost of the Ivy-Bridge chips.

The upgraded 3.46GHz old Mac Pro is pretty comparable to the new 2.7GHz model in a lot of areas.

Uhh...which is it?

 

[peabo]

Uhh...which is it?

nMP is faster but the oMP is comparable, as I said.

 

[mcnallym]

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/io/thunderbolt/thunderbolt-technology-developer.html

Shows that the Display Port routes into the TB Controller from the GPU.

Looking at the ifixit Teardown then the TB Controllers are on the IO board, not the GPU cards.

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Mac+Pro+Late+2013+Teardown/20778

Now looking further at the teardown then cannot see any cabling so the Displayport connection from the GPU to the TB Controller on the IO Board seems to run through the Interconnect Board.

Now I don't see why would need seperate PCBs for new Cards to go into an nMPv1 and nMPv2 based on that, as simply need to send the GPU display signal over the Interconnect Board and into the TB Controllers.

 

[beaker7]

nMP is faster but the oMP is comparable, as I said.

So faster, but not faster. Got it.

 

[peabo]

So faster, but not faster. Got it.

Comparable means similar. As in, it's not quite as fast but it's close enough that there is not too much in it. I also said 'pretty comparable' to emphasise the point that it's not totally equal.

 

[handsome pete]

it has been abundantly demonstrated that you CAN upgrade the CPU.

We should make this clear when talking about upgrading the CPUs. Yes, you can swap out CPUs since they're using easily obtained off the shelf Xeons. But you're still bound to what the motherboard/socket will accept. For example, if I go out and buy a new 6core today, I can expect to upgrade that down the road to another IvyBridge E5 8 core, 10 core, or 12 core chip. But those are my limits. The next generation chips will not work on the 6,1. Granted, that's always been the case with CPU swaps. But if you're looking for a more long term upgrade path CPUwise, then the 6,1 is limited.

IF Apple doesn't release them, you know that there will be Apple resellers who will sell the cards for use in the nMP v1.

I don't think we know that at all. What makes you so certain of that?

So faster, but not faster. Got it.

I know he already responded, but how do you not recognize the different meanings of these words?

 

[Asgorath]

Not really a "clock cleaning" but the older MP beat it fractionally in all tests. Hyperbole much?

The old Mac Pro is using tech from 5+ years ago, though (i.e. PCIe Gen 2, ancient CPU tech, etc).

Edit: Never mind, missed this whole page of discussion.

 

[paulrbeers]

I don't think we know that at all. What makes you so certain of that?

Because there are Apple certified repair shops selling parts "out the back door" (and sometimes "out the front door" as well) because there is demand. There's a thread right here that the decussion was about the dual CPU tray and one user was cutting another user a deal for just above cost.

If buyers are willing, someone will sell for a profit. Human nature. Psychology 101.... (why else would we have people being sold into slavery, people being killed over precious metals, etc. etc. = Profit).

 

[beaker7]

I know he already responded, but how do you not recognize the different meanings of these words?

Of course I know the difference. I'm just trying to encourage people to articulate themselves clearly by feigning misunderstanding.

Saying it is "actually faster" and then a paragraph later saying it is "comparable" is incredibly poor writing.

 

[paulrbeers]

The old Mac Pro is using tech from 5+ years ago, though (i.e. PCIe Gen 2, ancient CPU tech, etc).

Edit: Never mind, missed this whole page of discussion.

No it actually isn't..... The 3.46ghz CPU's were released in 2011 and the GPU's were released in 2012. The only thing released 5+ years ago is the motherboard.

 

[dhazeghi]

Whilst the CPU is upgradeable, (OWC offer a program for this) the nMP already uses the currently fastest 12 core E5-2600v2 available ( and the nMP won the CPU focused tests )

E5-2600v3 is supposed to be different although still a skt 2011 in that won't just drop into an existing system, so I suspect would be a complete new CPU board and CPU.

Haswell-E and Haswell-EP use a physically incompatible 2011 pin socket, so there's absolutely zero chance that the next generation of CPUs will work in the nMP.

 

[paulrbeers]

Haswell-E and Haswell-EP use a physically incompatible 2011 pin socket, so there's absolutely zero chance that the next generation of CPUs will work in the nMP.

Ummm, that's what he said..... E5-2600v3 is supposed to be different although still a skt 2011 in that won't just drop into an existing system,