nMP 12 Core gets a good clock cleaning from cMP

[slughead]

There is not, which is why I asked. Especially since they say the cMP will have support for future GPU's. Bar NVIDIA cards, and they have issues with updates, I don't see it being easy.

Apple's card choices basically decide which AMDs will work. I doubt the 290x will have drivers anytime soon as the thing runs way to hot to be in any of their computers.

Kepler and future AMD cards? That's highly likely, but it'll take a little while.

290X doesn't offer a huge advantage over the 280x (7970) in terms of OpenCL (5-15%). That could be drivers and may be corrected in the future, but we might have to wait for a truly next-gen AMD before we see real gains in this department.

The future could be multi-core GPUs.

You're right that it is somewhat of a leap of faith that we will see GPU upgrades for the cMP, but we have had extremely good luck so far, and this is a lot less of a leap that nMP fans have when they say they expect GPU upgrades in a super-proprietary form-factor.

Anyways, I think this is besides the point. IMO the important thing in terms of this thread is how even out-dated PCIe slots can allow a computer to keep up with a new one. I also think that 2 years from now when nMP users are looking to upgrade to the latest tech, the sting of losing that ability will be more apparent.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Anyways, I think this is besides the point. IMO the important thing in terms of this thread is how even out-dated PCIe slots can allow a computer to keep up with a new one. I also think that 2 years from now when nMP users are looking to upgrade to the latest tech, the sting of losing that ability will be more apparent.

Exactly! Let us wait 1-2 years. I think, then some people are missing something.

 

[AidenShaw]

The future could be multi-core GPUs.

The 280x and 290x have 2K cores or more.

Is the future now?

 

[TzunamiOSX]

The 280x and 290x have 2K cores or more.

Is the future now?

I think he mean Dual GPUs like the R9 295X2

or the Titan Z

 

[Tutor]

I think he mean Dual GPUs like the R9 295X2

Image

or the Titan Z

Image

For OCL applications, I'd love to have four of those R9 295X2s on one of my Gigabyte UP4 motherboards with four double wide PCIe slots - in, of course, a large Lian Li case.

 

[initialsBB]

That's a 280x, Not a 290x mate.

The part of me that is my Mac Rumors personae will copy 100 times
"Rain, wind or snow, thrice I will read a post before answering."
Sorry.

 

[iBug2]

I also think that 2 years from now when nMP users are looking to upgrade to the latest tech, the sting of losing that ability will be more apparent.

Latest GPU tech you mean. I don't remember being able to upgrade my cMP's to the latest memory, CPU's and I/O. Only the GPU was upgradable.

 

[mcnallym]

A IMO the important thing in terms of this thread is how even out-dated PCIe slots can allow a computer to keep up with a new one.

Interesting choice of phrase there "can keep up", which is a far cry from cleaning it's clock as the thread title claims.

Which is what some of the people here had issue with.

NOBODY as far as I can see in this thread is disputing that you can upgrade a cMP to be comparable to the current nMP. It is the wisdom of doing so, which even the article questions as the upgraded cMP was more expensive then buying the nMP.

Prices for Dual CPU 4,1 and 5,1 ( certainly here in the UK ) are still high. £1200 for a 4,1 2.26 and then still have to get the CPU's SSD's and GPU's etc and is already going to be a 4 year old system.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

290X doesn't offer a huge advantage over the 280x (7970) in terms of OpenCL (5-15%). That could be drivers and may be corrected in the future, but we might have to wait for a truly next-gen AMD before we see real gains in this department.

It's a 'tad' more than that mate.

My D700's

Pair of 290X's

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18596711


Plus for OpenGL, they're far better. I'd like that sweet spot of both good OpenCL, and GL all round.
As you say though, they're simply too hot at the moment, and draw to much power. The next revision or generation might fit the bill though.

 

[MH01]

It's a 'tad' more than that mate.

My D700's
Image

Pair of 290X's
Image

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18596711


Plus for OpenGL, they're far better. I'd like that sweet spot of both good OpenCL, and GL all round.
As you say though, they're simply too hot at the moment, and draw to much power. The next revision or generation might fit the bill though.

That is actually quite a substantial difference .

 

[N19h7m4r3]

That is actually quite a substantial difference .

Yup, the 290x competes with the Titan and 780Ti in games and computation. AMD's single GPU flagship. The new FirePro W9100 is based on it.

 

[Flint Ironstag]

N19h7m4r3,

per your sig you're running a nMP. Curious what a non-undervoltaged / under clocked pair of 7970s will do. Might split the difference neatly between the nMPs somewhat neutered GPUs and stock parts. Would be very interested to see those results.

 

[CASLondon]

Interesting choice of phrase there "can keep up", which is a far cry from cleaning it's clock as the thread title claims.

Which is what some of the people here had issue with.

NOBODY as far as I can see in this thread is disputing that you can upgrade a cMP to be comparable to the current nMP. It is the wisdom of doing so, which even the article questions as the upgraded cMP was more expensive then buying the nMP.

Prices for Dual CPU 4,1 and 5,1 ( certainly here in the UK ) are still high. £1200 for a 4,1 2.26 and then still have to get the CPU's SSD's and GPU's etc and is already going to be a 4 year old system.

True, but do all the price comparisons in the UK. nMP, thunderbolt chassis, etc. If you are video editing and want/need a 8-12 core system, a nMP setup with the D700 gpu will be very expensive, and will make the cMP set-up at least an interesting comparison. Especially if you aren't trying to create an exact parallel, just a high performance workstation.

Also, the original article slightly overstated some of the costs, at least if you are patient, and using ebay, and looking for deals. The Xeon cpus should start turning up in greater numbers from servers off of their 3 year lease terms.

Even now I'm finding lots of pairs of x5670s for 300 pounds or under, and that will get you geek benched to 25-27,000.

So 1200 plus 300 gets you most of what you need minus the GPU, let's say 4-600 for a GPU, 200 for a SSD boot drive, that is not a bad deal. If you look at ebay for what the upgraded dual processor cMP are getting in the UK and Europe, its worth it, let alone what the most useful spec nMP are going to cost. And then the external storage component aspect, which is significant compared to the old internal HD setup.

 

[slughead]

NOBODY as far as I can see in this thread is disputing that you can upgrade a cMP to be comparable to the current nMP. It is the wisdom of doing so, which even the article questions as the upgraded cMP was more expensive then buying the nMP.

That's inaccurate. The setup in the article used what is effectively a breakout box for PCIe which was $2500. This is totally unnecessary as you can use an auxiliary PSU for a mere $50-$125. This makes the cMP setup > $2000 less than the nMP (> 20% less).

I've said previously that if it were me, I wouldn't go for the cMP setup mentioned in the article unless I owned a cMP already. The reason being that going forward, say in the next 2 years, upgrade options will be limited. Even if I'm saving $2,000 over the nMP, that's still >$7,000 on a machine with a sketchy future.

However, I woudn't get a nMP either as that upgrade path is clearly even more sketchy. I would not buy the nMP for $2000 more, as the upgrade options are going to be even more limited than the cMP! At least cards like the 290x will theoretically run in the cMP, we're just waiting for drivers.

In this case, if I were dropping >$7,000 on a computer, I'd go with a PC as that would be far more cost-effective and the cost of ownership because of the ability to upgrade would likely be much less.

It's a 'tad' more than that mate.

That is actually quite a substantial difference .

I did my homework before making that statement. The 290x is lackluster for real-world OpenCL at the moment.

"Curiously, the 290X’s performance advantage over 280X is unusual dependent on the specific sub-test. The fluid simulation scales decently enough with the additional CUs, but the computer vision benchmark is stuck in the mud as compared to the 280X."​

SOURCE

In these theoretical benchmarks you posted, they do great, but in real world tasks it's still not so good.

It does look like this is more of a software limitation, as I suspected and your benchmarks point out, but still not spectacular nonetheless. Hopefully they'll fix this issue and we'll see some real gains from the 290X in these tasks.

If they fix this issue, and particularly if we get Mac drivers, this would be a huge windfall for OpenCL on the cheap--We'd see a real "clock-cleaning"

 

[iBug2]

I've said previously that if it were me, I wouldn't go for the cMP setup mentioned in the article unless I owned a cMP already. The reason being that going forward, say in the next 2 years, upgrade options will be limited. Even if I'm saving $2,000 over the nMP, that's still >$7,000 on a machine with a sketchy future.

Agreed. Buying a cMP today isn't just worth all the risks one is taking into the future.

However, I woudn't get a nMP either as that upgrade path is clearly even more sketchy. I would not buy the nMP for $2000 more, as the upgrade options are going to be even more limited than the cMP! At least cards like the 290x will theoretically run in the cMP, we're just waiting for drivers.
In this case, if I were dropping >$7,000 on a computer, I'd go with a PC as that would be far more cost-effective and the cost of ownership because of the ability to upgrade would likely be much less.

If you are an upgrader, a nMP isn't for you. So I agree with this as well. But most professionals don't upgrade their computers, they trash them and buy new ones and have been doing so. So they will continue to do the same with the nMP. For those people now is the time to make a decision. If a Thunderbolt based workflow is not going to work for you in the future, you should switch to PC today and avoid all unnecessary purchases on the Mac side. Otherwise, buy an MP and start spending on a TB based workflow today.

 

[Yahooligan]

For those people now is the time to make a decision. If a Thunderbolt based workflow is not going to work for you in the future, you should switch to PC today and avoid all unnecessary purchases on the Mac side. Otherwise, buy an MP and start spending on a TB based workflow today.

You are aware that TB is an Intel, not Apple, technology and that at the very least HP and Asus are currently offering producs with TB ports, right?

Investing in TB products is investing in the future of TB, not Apple or Macs.

 

[iBug2]

You are aware that TB is an Intel, not Apple, technology and that at the very least HP and Asus are currently offering producs with TB ports, right?

Investing in TB products is investing in the future of TB, not Apple or Macs.

Yes, other manufacturers are offering TB ports, but Apple won't be offering any PCIe slots in the future. So buying a nMP means that you are off the PCIe path. That's not true for HP and Asus. With them you get TB and PCIe.

 

[Yahooligan]

Yes, other manufacturers are offering TB ports, but Apple won't be offering any PCIe slots in the future. So buying a nMP means that you are off the PCIe path. That's not true for HP and Asus. With them you get TB and PCIe.

That's not what your previous post says, so you may want to clarify it. Your previous post basically says that if you don't want/need TB then go PC and avoid wasting money on Mac-only TB products. However, since TB isn't Mac-only that post is misleading since TB exists in the PC world as well. Just better hope you can find drivers.

 

[iBug2]

That's not what your previous post says, so you may want to clarify it. Your previous post basically says that if you don't want/need TB then go PC and avoid wasting money on Mac-only TB products. However, since TB isn't Mac-only that post is misleading since TB exists in the PC world as well. Just better hope you can find drivers.

My previous post is correct. If you don't want TB, you have to go PC because PC offers PCIe and by the looks of it they'll be offering it in the future as well. I didn't think it needed clarification but my mistake.

 

[Yahooligan]

That's not what your post says, that's all I'm saying. All you talk about is TB and to avoid buying TB hardware if you're going to go PC, which is not correct. You make no mention of PCIe or that if people want to go PCIe THEN they need to go PC.

See the confusion/contradiction yet?

 

[iBug2]

That's not what your post says, that's all I'm saying. All you talk about is TB and to avoid buying TB hardware if you're going to go PC, which is not correct. You make no mention of PCIe or that if people want to go PCIe THEN they need to go PC.

See the confusion/contradiction yet?

No, I'm not talking about avoiding TB hardware if you are going to go PC. I'm talking about if you want to avoid TB hardware then you have to go PC.

Here's the sentence "If a Thunderbolt based workflow is not going to work for you in the future, you should switch to PC today and avoid all unnecessary purchases on the Mac side."

NOT A IMPLIES B, A being TB not working for you and B being going PC? I never said B IMPLIES NOT A.

 

[Yahooligan]

No, I'm not talking about avoiding TB hardware if you are going to go PC. I'm talking about if you want to avoid TB hardware then you have to go PC.

Here's the sentence "If a Thunderbolt based workflow is not going to work for you in the future, you should switch to PC today and avoid all unnecessary purchases on the Mac side."

NOT A IMPLIES B, A being TB not working for you and B being going PC? I never said B IMPLIES NOT A.

You can use PCIe with the nMP.
You can use TB with PCs.

There is nothing preventing anyone from switching from Mac to PC and taking the 3rd party hardware that they bought for the nMP with them. Nothing except a potential lack of Windows drivers, anyway.

Your post is unnecessarily confusing and telling people to "avoid unnecessary purchases on the Mac side" implies those purchases will not work if someone were to switch over to PCs.

Arguing semantics here, but your post really is not correct, IMO. Guess we'll need to agree to disagree.

 

[iBug2]

You can use PCIe with the nMP.
You can use TB with PCs.

There is nothing preventing anyone from switching from Mac to PC and taking the 3rd party hardware that they bought for the nMP with them. Nothing except a potential lack of Windows drivers, anyway.

Your post is unnecessarily confusing and telling people to "avoid unnecessary purchases on the Mac side" implies those purchases will not work if someone were to switch over to PCs.

Arguing semantics here, but your post really is not correct, IMO. Guess we'll need to agree to disagree.

The PCIe box method is not reliable atm and does not work for all PCIe cards. If you plan to stay on the Mac side, you probably should make sure that the vendors you are working with are planning a TB based peripheral instead of the PCIe card. Otherwise you are taking risks.

And by unnecessary purchase I mean unnecessary Mac Pro's. Which won't work on the PC side unless you mean bootcamp.

Oh and my external DAC/ADC does not have windows drivers, it's mac only. And I doubt that it's the only such mac only hardware on the planet. So, no. You cannot take your hardware to the PC side whenever you want to. If you are in a business that spends a lot on peripherals and external upgrades, then it's better to plan ahead depending on whether all you need will be available through TB or not.

 

[MacVidCards]

If you are in a business that spends a lot on peripherals and external upgrades, then it's better to plan ahead depending on whether all you need will be available through TB or not.

Worst advice EVER.

TB is very far from proven tech.

With TB3 enroute using a new connector you are going to see everyone drop TB2 like 3 day old Sushi. Using a bunch of adapters for throttled PCIE packaged up in a nifty container sounds like a really DUMB idea.

And as far as your "If you compare nMP to cMP you absolutely HAVE to use NEW RETAIL PRICE" combined with "If you compare nMP to cMP you have to factor in that older equipment won't last as long as newer"...well together that is called MALARKEY.

It is one or the other.

Last year I bought a car from 2005 with 12K miles. Why? Because I saved a BUNCH of money and I think it will last a long time with little trouble.

So, should I have compared my 2005 car to a 2013 and used the original retail pricing for both? Why in the high holy heck would I do that? When I buy something, all I care about is what it costs me TODAY and how long it will last.

When you buy a used item, it costs a whole bunch less. That's why you buy it.

cMP has become an incredible value. It won't last as long. WHO CARES? It costs half as much for same (or better) performance and isn't tied to make-believe tech of TB. TB is a subset of PCIE, delivered via proprietary connector. Less performance but more cost for added convenience. Great for a laptop, DUMB for a desktop.

If you have $5,000.00 to toss down the drain, take a chance that TB2 is where the world is going. Buy the slower nMP and enjoy the luster.

 

[cgc]

Not really a "clock cleaning" but the older MP beat it fractionally in all tests. Hyperbole much?