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I was going to read MPGs latest round of articles on the nMP, but when I sent it to Readability so I could read it tomorrow on the plane, Readability said he's excluded his content. What?! He's also broken his article into 12 pages with one or two paragraphs per page to drive up page views. What a hack! :rolleyes: He's lost me permanently.
 
He added the 6-core, so that's a bit better, but it's still basically an ad for a unreleased product.. :D
I think you guys are missing the point. It's irrelevant whether he's a shill or not. What's important is that he's providing what I think is the best information so far available in comparing these machines for use as photographers. The fact of the matter is that the 8-core machine that he's testing is identical to one that you'd get from Apple except for the fact that OWC installed the processor rather than Apple. And he's comparing it to a stock six-core, which gives us a perfect test whereby the only variable that's different is the processor. The fact that he's testing them against a high-end previous generation Mac Pro is just icing on the cake.

BTW, I think you're interested in Lightoom, yes? In case you missed it, this link was in another thread. He did some good benchmarking against top of the line 2013 iMac.

http://tony-hart.com/blog/essays/2014/01/mac-pro-a-lightroom-perspective/
 
I think you guys are missing the point. It's irrelevant whether he's a shill or not. What's important is that he's providing what I think is the best information so far available in comparing these machines for use as photographers. The fact of the matter is that the 8-core machine that he's testing is identical to one that you'd get from Apple except for the fact that OWC installed the processor rather than Apple. And he's comparing it to a stock six-core, which gives us a perfect test whereby the only variable that's different is the processor. The fact that he's testing them against a high-end previous generation Mac Pro is just icing on the cake.

BTW, I think you're interested in Lightoom, yes? In case you missed it, this link was in another thread. He did some good benchmarking against top of the line 2013 iMac.

http://tony-hart.com/blog/essays/2014/01/mac-pro-a-lightroom-perspective/

Yeah, but it wasn't the same 8-core processor.. but they do help. Especially the second review.

Now we just need a 4-core test...
 
Yeah, but it wasn't the same 8-core processor.. but they do help. Especially the second review.

Now we just need a 4-core test...
Wow, I don't know how I missed that one (information overload I guess). All the more impressive for the six-core results then.
 
I was going to read MPGs latest round of articles on the nMP, but when I sent it to Readability so I could read it tomorrow on the plane, Readability said he's excluded his content. What?! He's also broken his article into 12 pages with one or two paragraphs per page to drive up page views. What a hack! :rolleyes: He's lost me permanently.

Worse when I tried Instapaper yesterday, that gets the content for a page spluttered with ads all over with a tiny amount of text but he's coded it deliberately so it can't grab the other pages. Stuff starting at the last page and pressing read later for each one in reverse order for a lark! Really grates when Anand offers a single page review. What a plonker..!
 
Worse when I tried Instapaper yesterday, that gets the content for a page spluttered with ads all over with a tiny amount of text but he's coded it deliberately so it can't grab the other pages. Stuff starting at the last page and pressing read later for each one in reverse order for a lark! Really grates when Anand offers a single page review. What a plonker..!

You didn't miss much. Just review the test results, only relevant content there. His writing is pexestrian.
 
Interesting about LR not using more cores and no GPUs. Makes me wonder how the performance of Aperture compares to LR. I'm going to have to do a head-to-head test when I get back from this business trip! :)

I suspect that we may find out that LR uses more cores for some things, as has been reported elsewhere, and only 4 for other tasks.
 
Interesting about LR not using more cores and no GPUs. Makes me wonder how the performance of Aperture compares to LR. I'm going to have to do a head-to-head test when I get back from this business trip! :)
That would be great. I've done some quick and dirty tests using Tony Harts Lightroom test mule data, and Aperture seems to be at least twice as fast as Lightroom for importing and exporting. I wish I could like Aperture, but I just find it too foreign after using Lightroom for so long.

As for Lightroom not using more than four cores, that doesn't appear to be correct. I've seen two reports of 6-core machines using all six cores, one oMP and one nMP. What Lightroom does't do is use hyper threading at all.
 
That would be great. I've done some quick and dirty tests using Tony Harts Lightroom test mule data, and Aperture seems to be at least twice as fast as Lightroom for importing and exporting. I wish I could like Aperture, but I just find it too foreign after using Lightroom for so long.

As for Lightroom not using more than four cores, that doesn't appear to be correct. I've seen two reports of 6-core machines using all six cores, one oMP and one nMP. What Lightroom does't do is use hyper threading at all.

For what tasks? I think that may be the issue. I saw one of those reports too, and I believe it was on an export, while Barefeats was doing some sort of processing.
 
For what tasks? I think that may be the issue. I saw one of those reports too, and I believe it was on an export, while Barefeats was doing some sort of processing.

The procedure/details of the "Test Mule" benchmark compiled by Tony is available here
 
The procedure/details of the "Test Mule" benchmark compiled by Tony is available here

But I believe that the 6-core usage there was only noted for the export.

Regardless, Barefeats should be doing some additional testing soon, so hopefully we'll get more info.
 
Damn, pretty brutal. Also, a bit miffed that he didn't test Logic Pro X at all. I guess audio engineering is no longer "pro".

At this point, I think I'm going to wait for rev 2 and hope that my 2008 Mac Pro keeps on chugging until then.

He clearly states he works with 3D, why would he cover Audio when he has no idea about it? It's not his field.

We'll have to sit tight and wait for someone in that field to cover it. Hopefully on Ars as well.
 
Damn, pretty brutal. Also, a bit miffed that he didn't test Logic Pro X at all. I guess audio engineering is no longer "pro".

At this point, I think I'm going to wait for rev 2 and hope that my 2008 Mac Pro keeps on chugging until then.

I think it was a pretty fair assessment and he actually appears to like the device. Though his harshest criticisms seems to point to lack of 2 cpu option, GPU choice, and driver support.

His biggest argument for the dual CPUs is that he believes GPU rendering's time is up. That's debatable depending who you ask. But I really don't see Apple making a dual CPU version of this machine in future iterations. First off, it's not as simple as just throwing another socket on the card. Major design modifications would have to happen. Not to mention the power and cooling requirements of a 2nd CPU.

He also goes on to mention that Apple would have been better off getting the same performance or better by offering a dual 6 core or dual 8 core model, referencing the low cost ($583) of the 6 core chip. But that's a bit disingenuous since he's referring to the E5-1650, which is incapable of running in a dual socket system. The equivalent dual socket version would be the E5-2643, which costs ($1552).

He's right on about the driver issues though. That needs to be fixed. Like I mentioned in another thread, if I were using Maya and rendering in mental ray, the best workflow would be to model and rig in Windows but use OSX for rendering. That's dumb. Both Autodesk and Apple need to get on the ball.
 
He clearly states he works with 3D, why would he cover Audio when he has no idea about it? It's not his field.

He ran Final Cut Pro tests and he's not a video editor.

I think it was a pretty fair assessment and he actually appears to like the device. Though his harshest criticisms seems to point to lack of 2 cpu option, GPU choice, and driver support.

Yeah, I didn't mean that his comments were brutal; it was a balanced review. The brutality was in the test results, with a 2010 MP beating out the 2013 8-core in many tests. And I agree with him, the lack of dual-CPU option for Xeon procs is a mysterious choice by Apple. They can't expect to make up that lack of CPU power with the GPUs alone. I'll give Apple more of a pass on driver support since it's early days still, but his comments about OpenCL support are worrying since that has a direct impact on how easy it will be for 3rd-party developers to adopt OpenCL.
 
Yes. Where are the audio benchmarks? Logic is a mainstay of OSX.


He ran Final Cut Pro tests and he's not a video editor.



Yeah, I didn't mean that his comments were brutal; it was a balanced review. The brutality was in the test results, with a 2010 MP beating out the 2013 8-core in many tests. And I agree with him, the lack of dual-CPU option for Xeon procs is a mysterious choice by Apple. They can't expect to make up that lack of CPU power with the GPUs alone. I'll give Apple more of a pass on driver support since it's early days still, but his comments about OpenCL support are worrying since that has a direct impact on how easy it will be for 3rd-party developers to adopt OpenCL.
 
...
His biggest argument for the dual CPUs is that he believes GPU rendering's time is up.

That is a bit of an overstatement. A GPGPUs goning to exclusively rule the future world of computation? No. Are CPUs? Also no.

He flips flops a bit in the article. For some folks it is "go get a cluster" or for the Pixar folks that they aren't going to up up their cluster. Frankly if 2 CPUs are 'better" why aren't 4 or 8 or 16?

His argument is more so "cluster license" is too expensive and wants the "cluster' in one box.


That's debatable depending who you ask. But I really don't see Apple making a dual CPU version of this machine in future iterations.

I don't either but far more so for two reasons.

A. Not very enough folks were buying the dual CPU models to make a completely different case and separate engineering track worthwhile.
If that had been the bulk of the Mac Pro market then they would have dropped single CPU and kept the dual CPU design constraint. They didn't.
Peeled off from the single CPU models the duals probably don't meet a minimal unit number threshold.

[ Frankly the whole Apple needs a "halo" workstation is also a bit delusional. Apple is out to sell products that move.... not showboat, posturing partial demo products. ]


B. Intel is creating "dual CPU" as single CPU. The "CPU" is a package of cores. What the real root cause issue is what is minimum number of cores need to be useful/production.

This iteration tops out at 12. The next iteration will likely be 14. The one after that is likely close to 16. The response of "I need as many as I can get" again begs the question of why stopping at 2 packages.

This Mac Pro doesn't have to suck in everybody... just enough this round to get to the next iteration.

He also goes on to mention that Apple would have been better off getting the same performance or better by offering a dual 6 core or dual 8 core model, referencing the low cost ($583) of the 6 core chip.

Apple would have been better off for him as a customer if they are added the 10-core E5 2680 v2 option that is the same price as the E5 1680 v2 (8 core) model. (basically the same product with the latter having two cores flipped off and the clock rates boosted a bit as compensation. )
Just one more BTO option. Possibly on just the upper standard configuration if put the minimal threshold on GPU card at D500.

A 10 core option would have beat the old 12 core Westmere on the CPU metrics. He would have had a somewhat faster machine for the "same old price as the 12 core".

Apple is targeting folks with more mixed usage software. They could have trivially picked up a somewhat wider group with just one more CPU option. However, as the article points attempt to point out that folks are a bit price insensitive. So Apple is probably betting to get a decent fraction to go for the 12 core.


He's right on about the driver issues though. That needs to be fixed.

there are driver and application issues. The Cineabench 11 versus 14 scores mentioned. That is an application issue. Similar on CPU renders that AVX optimized. The hardware is there waiting... it is just not being used.

Apple is a behind the curve on OpenGL (and OpenCL ), but that is hardly new. The previous reviews grumbled about the exact same issue.
 
...The brutality was in the test results, with a 2010 MP beating out the 2013 8-core in many tests.

Many?

Cinebench 11 No.
Cinebench 14 [ probably no also. More parity with Windows likely just increases lead. ]
Mudbox Split. [ more Nvidia Quadro 4000 optimization likely an issue. ] ]
Modo No.
Maya No.
Luxmark 2010 isn't in the same zipcode.
Premiere Yes [ again using dated software. In a OpenCL section to drag in CUDA. He is just setting up the next subsection to complain. ]
Photoshop No.
Photozoom Yes
Cinebech 11 multi Yes, marginally. [ a bit odd have slide back to software that isn't as effective but probably was handy. ]
Maxwell No.
Maya Mental Ray Yes
V-Ray for Maya No.
Houdini No.
After Effects No.
Nuke No.

16 tests and just 3.5 yes 2010 faster. ( and two of those is more of a GPU optimization issue. ). That is a very weak case for dual CPUs.

Problems keeping up the dual E5 2600 v1 systems from competitors perhaps but not 2-3 generations back Mac Pro CPU packages (single or dual).

For better or worse, Apple's primary target is current Mac Pro users. This system is generally faster.


And I agree with him, the lack of dual-CPU option for Xeon procs is a mysterious choice by Apple.

It isn't mysterious at all. Straight from the article.

".... I know that these dual-CPU machines likely make up a small portion of Mac Pro sales, but they are crucial for many creative workflows. I'm not asking for my old tower back,.... . That's not revolutionary from any angle. ...."

Even the author admits this is small susbset of Mac Pro sales. That's why Apple isn't selling them. Same "nobody" ('not enough') folks are buying them issue that gets more than a few Apple products canceled.

As for it being revolutionary... there is always a gap between Apple's "dog and pony show" hyperbole and what they are doing. This Mac is incrementally, evoutionarily better. Just like Macs have evolved before and probably will be in the future.

but his comments about OpenCL support are worrying since that has a direct impact on how easy it will be for 3rd-party developers to adopt OpenCL.

It is more than a little strange that Apple has "bet the farm" ( or a sizable portion of it) on OpenCL and seems to be slacking. Some of that is probably a catch-22 of developers not complaining enough( Apple fixing sqeaky wheels) but also part is likey their chronic understaffing of products (to busy counting the billions on offshore accounts to pay attention to getting the back of the fence painted correctly. ).
 
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