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When will the iMac be refreshed?

  • September/October Event

  • November/December Event

  • March/April Event

  • WWDC 2019


Results are only viewable after voting.

Release

macrumors regular
Feb 28, 2012
142
198
I hope not. Any move to limit more user access is a move in the wrong direction.
Paying premium for any Apple product is bad enough, but when they also gouge you on RAM upgrades, it a double hit on the wallet.

Exactly. With all the problems Apple has been having with their hardware recently, if they close off user access, it's just going to push the users who have on the fence for a while now to finally step away. They need to step back and really appeal to their users first instead of their profit margins. If they do lose the door, they should at least drop their insane pricing for RAM.

I'm really interested in seeing what they do. I need a new Mac right now. My 2012 is dying and I hope I'm not making a mistake by waiting it out and hoping it lives long enough to get the next model.
 

ondert

macrumors 6502a
Aug 11, 2017
692
997
Canada
At least iMacs should stay a bit user upgradeable. I don't understand why they remove it on iMac Pro. Those server grade users would definitely want accessible components. I hope for RAM + SSD lid but pretty sure it won't happen.
 
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EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,985
12,953
At least iMacs should stay a bit user upgradeable. I don't understand why they remove it on iMac Pro. Those server grade users would definitely want accessible components. I hope for RAM + SSD lid but pretty sure it won't happen.
I was reading somewhere that said that in some labs, they always buy everything pre-configured, and then leave it as is for 3 years (aside from OS updates) until the extended warranty runs out. And then they buy all new equipment. Any computer "upgrades" are external only.

I don't know what percentage of high end "Pro" users that represents, but I suspect a fair number of iMac Pros would fall into that scenario.

There is a new chip line coming, but that's actually 9th generation:

i9-9900K 8-core 16-thread
i7-9700K 6-core 12-thread
i5-9600K 6-core 6-thread
i5-9600
i5-9500
i5-9400
etc.
https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/1474/intel-reveals-initial-9000-series-coffee-lake-skus/

i9-9900K 8-core 16-thread - ?? clock speed
i7-9700K 6-core 12-thread - ?? clock speed
i5-9600K 6-core 6-thread - 3.7 / 4.5 GHz
i5-9600 - 3.1 / 4.5 GHz
i5-9500 - 3.0 / 4.3 GHz
i5-9400 - 2.9 / 4.1 GHz
etc.

That i5-9400 looks like a winner.
 
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DQ11

macrumors regular
Apr 12, 2018
199
65
I’m in a similar boat looking for a more powerful system to run Logic Pro X. If you don’t need any more than 32GB of RAM then you should be set with the 21.5” but remember that with the smaller iMac there’s less space for cooling.

Yea I should be set with 16 gb for now. Also the i7 in the 21.5" is 65w chip instead of 91w so it runs a lot cooler, plus I get hyperthreading. I just wouldn't get the nice 27" screen.
[doublepost=1532375969][/doublepost]
The RAM on the 21.5” is not user upgradable.

For the 21.5” - US$2599
  • 3.6GHz quad-core 7th-generation Intel Core i7 processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.2GHz
  • 32GB 2400MHz DDR4
  • 512GB SSD
  • Radeon Pro 560 with 4GB video memory
  • Magic Mouse 2
  • Magic Keyboard - US English
For the 27” - $2299 plus cost of third party RAM
  • 3.5GHz quad-core 7th-generation Intel Core i5 processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.1GHz
  • 8GB 2400MHz DDR4
  • 512GB SSD
  • Radeon Pro 575 with 4GB video memory
  • Magic Mouse 2
  • Magic Keyboard - US English
Which would I buy? Neither, if the 2018 RAM is user upgradable. I’d get something like this:

2018 27” - $2099 (?) plus cost of third party RAM
  • 2.8 GHz hex-core 8th-generation Intel Core i5 processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.0GHz
  • 8GB 2400MHz DDR4
  • 512GB SSD
  • Radeon Pro 575X with 4GB video memory
  • Magic Mouse 2
  • Magic Keyboard - US English
This last one would be the fastest and probably the cheapest too. It would also be relatively quiet.

Yea definitely the last one would be my first choice, I'm just not sure if they are releasing them this year or not. I'd like to believe they intend to, but who knows with Apple anymore.

Appreciate the price breakdown though.
[doublepost=1532376380][/doublepost]
It's probably a combination of cost, binning tiers, and marketing.

Given the throttling results though, it may have made sense to have non-HT 6-core i7 mobile chips.



Well, I am noise sensitive, and I already found the i7-7700K undesirable because of the fan noise under load. I had one and then returned it to get the i5-7600.

The i7-8700K will run at least as hot, and sometimes hotter. An 8th generation i9 doesn't officially exist, but there is an i7-8086K which is faster than the i7-8700K and likely runs even hotter.

There is a new chip line coming, but that's actually 9th generation:

i9-9900K 8-core 16-thread
i7-9700K 6-core 12-thread
i5-9600K 6-core 6-thread
i5-9600
i5-9500
i5-9400
etc.

I'm sure the i9 is going to be very, very hot, and it would likely require a new cooling system in an iMac. The iMac Pro cooling system would be perfect for it though. Actually, it'd be great for the i7-8700K and i7-9700K too, and all of the other 6-core chips too for that matter.

BTW, there is a new Core i3-9100 coming too that's almost as fast as my Core i5-7600. That would make a decent entry level 27" iMac, but I'm guessing Apple won't use it, and I'm guessing they won't use the existing Core i3-8100 either.

Sure, the faster HyperThreaded chips would be great performance-wise for Logic Pro X, but in music production, noise can be an issue. That's why you see so many posts here asking which iMacs would be the best balance between noise and performance. It seems most agree that the quad HT i7-7700K is good enough for even elite users with many working fine with the quad i5 chips too. The i5-8400 is in the performance ballpark of the i7-7700K but usually runs cooler than the i7-7700K, which makes it a good choice.

tl;dr:

I'm thinking the best balance for music production in fall 2018 may be the Core i5-8400. 6-core non-HT performance which is close to the i7-7700K, but usually with lower power usage.

Makes sense. I would rather have that option than the i7-7700k anyways.
 
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Lammers

macrumors 6502
Oct 30, 2013
449
345
At least iMacs should stay a bit user upgradeable. I don't understand why they remove it on iMac Pro. Those server grade users would definitely want accessible components. I hope for RAM + SSD lid but pretty sure it won't happen.

I bet that despite all the talk about the importance of being upgradeable, the actual proportion of PCs (including Macs) that ever get upgraded in their life is tiny - a small fraction of 1%. And I bet Apple has data on this that tells them that. So then why would they bother making their devices upgradeable? Especially given the risks and support headaches that creates (and Apple will also have data on what proportion of Apple Care support calls are generated by issues with user-modified RAM). The "server grade users" that you talk about just want a fast device that is highly reliable - and actually accessible components conflicts with reliability.

In reality, when people here talk about upgradeability or "user access", they are almost always talking about one single thing - being able to add their own RAM to new iMacs to undercut Apple's own RAM upgrade pricing. So that becomes entirely a commercial decision for Apple. Does the increased revenue from being able to charge for RAM upgrades (revenue that is currently going to third parties instead) offset the potential reduced revenue from users who no longer buy iMacs. And I bet Apple has done that analysis and come to a decision.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,985
12,953
i9-9900K 8-core 16-thread - ?? clock speed
i7-9700K 6-core 12-thread - ?? clock speed
i5-9600K 6-core 6-thread - 3.7 / 4.5 GHz
i5-9600 - 3.1 / 4.5 GHz
i5-9500 - 3.0 / 4.3 GHz
i5-9400 - 2.9 / 4.1 GHz
etc.

That i5-9400 looks like a winner.
Weird. This page says i7-9700K is 3.6 GHz with 4.9 GHz Turbo 8-core 8-threads. No HT.

http://www.coolaler.com/threads/intel-core-i9-9900k_i7-9700k_i5-9600k.351755/

I wonder if this 8-core 8-thread chip would be better or worse than 6-core 12-thread in terms of heat generation.

However, for someone like me, that 6-core 6-thread i5-9400 still looks like the best option.

P.S. Ironically I just installed a 6-core 2.8 GHz in my Windows 10 PC, except my chip is an AMD from 2010.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,025
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
Aside from being tired of my current Time Machine back-up strategy, the primary reason why I am considering an iMac is that I REALLY despise the T1 and T2 chips and the notion that they essentially require that the storage be soldered onto the main logic board or, in the case of the iMac Pro, paired in such a way so that data recovery is impossible thanks to the controller BEING the T2 chip itself. I want a Mac that I still have some say in. The iMac Pro, and Touch Bar MacBook Pros don't offer me that feature anymore.
 

mreg376

macrumors 65816
Mar 23, 2008
1,233
418
Brooklyn, NY
I bet that despite all the talk about the importance of being upgradeable, the actual proportion of PCs (including Macs) that ever get upgraded in their life is tiny - a small fraction of 1%. And I bet Apple has data on this that tells them that. So then why would they bother making their devices upgradeable? Especially given the risks and support headaches that creates (and Apple will also have data on what proportion of Apple Care support calls are generated by issues with user-modified RAM). The "server grade users" that you talk about just want a fast device that is highly reliable - and actually accessible components conflicts with reliability.

In reality, when people here talk about upgradeability or "user access", they are almost always talking about one single thing - being able to add their own RAM to new iMacs to undercut Apple's own RAM upgrade pricing. So that becomes entirely a commercial decision for Apple. Does the increased revenue from being able to charge for RAM upgrades (revenue that is currently going to third parties instead) offset the potential reduced revenue from users who no longer buy iMacs. And I bet Apple has done that analysis and come to a decision.

If you're talking about RAM when you say upgradeable, I disagree that only "a small fraction of 1%" upgrade. In fact, for the machines that allow easy user-RAM upgrades I would suspect the opposite is true -- that only a fraction of 1% buy all the RAM they're ever going to use in that machine from Apple at the time of sale. Plus, Apple has no way of knowing how many or what proportion of users upgrade RAM after purchase. Ultimately of course it's a revenue decision for Apple, but every company wants to have happy customers, and I don't think its fair to say or imply that Apple has no concern whatsoever for users' preferences. At the moment the 21.5 inch iMac is not easily RAM-ugradeable and the 27" iMac is. So obviously it is not just a revenue decision.
 
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DQ11

macrumors regular
Apr 12, 2018
199
65
I bet that despite all the talk about the importance of being upgradeable, the actual proportion of PCs (including Macs) that ever get upgraded in their life is tiny - a small fraction of 1%. And I bet Apple has data on this that tells them that. So then why would they bother making their devices upgradeable? Especially given the risks and support headaches that creates (and Apple will also have data on what proportion of Apple Care support calls are generated by issues with user-modified RAM). The "server grade users" that you talk about just want a fast device that is highly reliable - and actually accessible components conflicts with reliability.

In reality, when people here talk about upgradeability or "user access", they are almost always talking about one single thing - being able to add their own RAM to new iMacs to undercut Apple's own RAM upgrade pricing. So that becomes entirely a commercial decision for Apple. Does the increased revenue from being able to charge for RAM upgrades (revenue that is currently going to third parties instead) offset the potential reduced revenue from users who no longer buy iMacs. And I bet Apple has done that analysis and come to a decision.


That is a good way at breaking it down, and makes sense that apple isn't in a hurry to add more upgrade options.

My biggest complaint is that everything is priced to make you feel like you are getting something better, but not as good as it could be for "just $200 more" or something like that.

They make the base models so unappealing that it's almost a given you will purchase at least one upgrade, but they make the following upgrade just a bit too much but just cheap enough to possibly entice you to want to get it....and if you don't, you still feel like you didn't get enough out of the purchase.

So it's almost like I have to spend $3,500 to get the 27" + 512 SSD + 16 gb ram + i7-7700k just to feel like I'm getting my money's worth out of the purchase.

To get that with a i5 base model is still like $2,900 and I can't fathom paying almost $3,000 for a kaby lake 3.4ghz i5 that is pretty out dated by this point. At least the i7-7700k has great single core speed and is somewhat future proofed and can keep up with the hexacore chips.

So it's like your are damned it you do, damned if you don't.

* 21.5" i7-7700(non-k) + 512 SSD + 16 gb ram + CD Drive + Logic Pro X + Track Pad + Tax = $2,850.

Those are the specs I want....I just want them in the 27" and they don't offer that processor.

I'm seriously considering the 21.5" and then just buying a QuadHD Monitor or 4k Monitor...27 or 32" and paying $350-400 for that, and having dual monitors.

* Also eliminates retina screen burn in problems as well if I use a different screen......I may not even use the 4k 21.5" screen.

I don't need anything more than 1080p HD honestly...I'm just using it for Logic Pro X.

Every day I come up with a new option that sounds good and then another the next day that sounds better and so on....vicious cycle...I wish Apple would announce the 2018 imacs already and just get it over with.
 

tomscott1988

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2009
711
699
UK
The main reason my 2010 mac pro is still functional is the fact ive been able to upgrade it.

Im a tech person but I dont tend to spend my life sorting and fixing hardware. In the 8 years ive had the machine its had 3 graphics cards most recently a RX 580, started as a quad which was upgraded to a 2012 3.46 Hex, had 3gbs ram to start then 16gbs now has 48gbs. Ive had multiple PCI cards including 2 Apricorn velocity X2 PCI card for raid 0 SSDs which were super fast also USB3 and USB C PCI cards. It has also got 20TBs of storage inside.

It was also good value when I bought it, about £2250 after discounts. There isnt anything close to that in the lineup with upgradablity and lifetime.

Like I said im not really a tinkerer but as my needs grew the machine grew and I love the fact this is possible although there is nowhere to go with it now. Its no slouch now but certainly is feeling its age. The difference is it never ever throttles and the CPU runs at peak when it needs to. Obviously the main issue is the CPU is old and doesnt have the newer codec support etc

With HS and metal updates it has given it new life with the RX580, Lightroom previously was almost unusable to the point I moved to a Dell workstation which was far quicker and had the same upgradablility. It just so happened that i tried the mac pro again few months ago with the newest CC updates mated with the metal and HS updates the machine is more than useable again.

I also have access to the 27" 2017 base iMac with 8gbs and 2tb fusion. The main drawback for me is the graphics card isnt fit for purpose with those displays. Rendering previews when zooming to 100% in lightroom takes an age and because of it trying to run that 15mp 5k display at 60fps its not usable the UI is so slow when making adjustments.

Obviously importing at 1:1 smart previews.

When your editing 500-1000 images from an event or wedding zooming to 100% is important for local adjustment it takes 2-3 seconds for it to render that area at full resolution, then when you move the area it has to render again. Say you do this once per image thats 50 minutes added to your workflow while you sit waiting. I generally will zoom into an image quite a few times to make multiple adjustments, it really can take an age.

The nice thing about a headless mac is that you can choose your display. Whats the point of mating a 5k display with a graphics card that isnt suitable... the Vega 56 is optimal for 1440 let alone 4k or even 5k.

The RX580 is great with the 27" ACD which is what I have my mac pro mated too and although on paper the base 2017 iMac is quicker, for my workflow my spec mac pro is still quicker and its because ive been able to upgrade it. The 27" would be faster if it was mated to a lower resolution display...

Obviously my usage isnt the same as everyone and I understand that.

8 years of lifetime for a computer is ridiculous but Apple haven't brought anything to the table that has been worth buying because of my use case. There are other issues like to fit my 20TB into an external array or nas would cost me £1000 etc as a photographer you need back ups and keeping 2 onsite and one offsite gets expensive.

The only option is the iMac pro atm which has adequate cooling comes with a good spec out of the box because you cant upgrade them, still has the same display. I dont really want to spend 5k one a machine then pay the extra for external accessories, it soon mounts. With current cpu tech the I series is a better option for me I dont need the xeons or the ECC ram, back in the day it was the obvious choice because it was faster than the C2D and early i series. I would rather have the power over the "reliability", ram and CPUs are so reliable now that im not really sure why xeons and ECC are still considered essential for creatives.

Anyway my 2 cents. I really enjoyed my time with the dell workstation and have an older i7 gaming PC which is why im not too bothered about windows. I do prefer Mac OS for work, so hoping the 2018 iMac will be a decent update with ability to swap ram.

TBH for a long serving machine TB4 will be a better option with more bandwidth for external accessories. TB3 is great but it still has a penalty and you still cant beat a normal desktop with removable parts, instead of spending double on external accessories that clutter the desk more...

Just dont understand the logic. Probably desktops arent sexy enough for apple and they last too long like my example.
 

Lammers

macrumors 6502
Oct 30, 2013
449
345
If you're talking about RAM when you say upgradeable, I disagree that only "a small fraction of 1%" upgrade. In fact, for the machines that allow easy user-RAM upgrades I would suspect the opposite is true -- that only a fraction of 1% buy all the RAM they're ever going to use in that machine from Apple at the time of sale. Plus, Apple has no way of knowing how many or what proportion of users upgrade RAM after purchase. Ultimately of course it's a revenue decision for Apple, but every company wants to have happy customers, and I don't think its fair to say or imply that Apple has no concern whatsoever for users' preferences. At the moment the 21.5 inch iMac is not easily RAM-ugradeable and the 27" iMac is. So obviously it is not just a revenue decision.

Wow, okay. We're going to have to agree to disagree since we clearly have polar opposite views. You really think that >99% of all upgradeable iMacs sold have had their RAM upgraded by their owner during their life?!? I'm sorry, I'm afraid I find that to be a ridiculous suggestion!

I disagree that "Apple has no way of knowing how many or what proportion of users upgrade RAM after purchase". When a Mac is setup the user is asked if they want to "Send diagnostics & usage data to Apple". I believe the box is ticked by default. This data includes the hardware configuration of the machine, so it's straightforward for Apple to see the installed RAM and compare it to the RAM that machine shipped with to understand what proportion of iMacs have had their RAM changed. And, again, I expect that Apple does that analysis on an ongoing basis (I know other PC hardware manufacturers do), and also correlates it with Apple Care ticket volume.

I don't believe I suggested that "Apple has no concern whatsoever for users' preferences". That would be a rather extreme position. I was just presenting my view of how I think Apple approaches this particular topic. But certainly Apple has demonstrated that it is prepared to make decisions that don't appear to be in the best interests of user preferences, including a fairly well established trend over time to remove the ability for users to upgrade RAM themselves. That's just a fact at this point. Your own example demonstrates it - the 21" iMac doesn't have user-upgradeable RAM, but it used to have user-upgradeable RAM until Apple took that away. The same is true for the Mac mini, and the same is true for the MacBook Pro. And the iMac Pro doesn't have it either. The trend seems clear to me.
 

andrewhowe00

macrumors newbie
Jul 24, 2018
6
18
Despite all of your opinions, one thing is clear: Apple does not care about you and will make the decision that best benefits their business.

I’ve always thought that the reason Apple is so successful is not just because of their ecosystem and simplicity, but it’s also because they have some of the most pure statistics compared to any other tech company.

Nobody makes Apple computers but Apple, and nobody releases OSX but Apple. This means that with each refresh of new products and with each software update, they can keep track of how their user base responds. This idea is similar to how Apple’s monopoly on their own products gives way for better working technology and a more seamless experience, but it’s still different. If people switch to Windows computers, it doesn’t matter if it’s Dell or Acer; Apple knows. Apple knows when their own users buy new devices, and they know the best times to release new product lines. The world of PC is far more complex and contains random data and reasons people switch, hundreds of other tech companies competing, all with their own product lines to refresh. Apple can control any variable they want and come to more precise conclusions about what is best for the company, even when different things trend as time passes. I think this is one of the greatest contributing factors to Apple’s success, if not the greatest. I trust that Apple’s business decisions are smarter than any other product’s I own.

Scheduled releases are definitely going to be less and less common for Apple products. Calculated releases are becoming more common, and they probably have well-paid statisticians who do the calculations. Maybe a calculated release can also be a scheduled release—a 20th anniversary iMac might be a huge success—but the former will always take precedent. If Apple switches to non-upgradable hardware, for any reason, they do not not care what the techies think. Maybe <1% upgrade their RAM throughout their computer’s life, or maybe it’s >10%. If they are doing it, it’s a good business decision and you can’t do a thing about it. Such goes for the release of the new line of iMacs, which I am desperately waiting for. I wonder how long it will be until the least picky Apple customers won’t even settle for 7th-gen processers. I certainly hope it’s soon.
 
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Ifti

macrumors 601
Dec 14, 2010
4,044
2,610
UK
I wish they would announce that though. lol

Me too!
Surely if it was just a spec bump they would have released by now considering the MacBook Pro's have been updated?
Makes me think they are upgrading the internal cooling system or something similar to delay for a while longer?

Returning my MacBook i9 this weekend and have decided to give it another month to see if the iMACs finally come along!!
 

tomscott1988

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2009
711
699
UK
If they told you then all these threads would be void. Have you heard of marketing and hype?

Apple know exactly what they are doing and your needs arent necessarily their priority. Although its ridiculously frustrating.
 

tomscott1988

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2009
711
699
UK
So...only your aluminium case is from 2010...everything else is upgraded, so thats no longer a 2010 mac pro...but 2010 case

Well its not really is it.... all the main boards, daughter boards, same sata bus... The CPU is of the same generation as the CPUs in the 2012 mac pro which subsequently was exactly the same machine. The difference is the PCI slots allow additional components, allowing an old machine to be upgraded when new technology comes along.

Cant do that with any other mac since the 2012 mac pro.
 

fokmik

Suspended
Oct 28, 2016
4,909
4,688
USA
i mean, that is no longer a 2010...why because a 1 component remains the same...i think if Apple makes a mac pro 2019 where you can easy swap ssd, ram and gpu...the rest can stay the same for a long time
 
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Ifti

macrumors 601
Dec 14, 2010
4,044
2,610
UK
Ok so Ive just been to the Apple Store to return my i9 MacBook.
I mentioned that I would be waiting for the iMAC updates........ and was told by the rep that he didn't think we would see anything this year!
He said the Sept event is mainly iPhone/iPad and that he didn't expect an iMAC refresh until next year!
I said I was hoping for a silent update, like we saw with the MacBooks, to which he replied it is possible as we saw it with the MacBooks, but not to hold my breath.....

Seriously, how much longer could it be??!!!!
 

Dave245

macrumors G3
Sep 15, 2013
9,862
8,084
Ok so Ive just been to the Apple Store to return my i9 MacBook.
I mentioned that I would be waiting for the iMAC updates........ and was told by the rep that he didn't think we would see anything this year!
He said the Sept event is mainly iPhone/iPad and that he didn't expect an iMAC refresh until next year!
I said I was hoping for a silent update, like we saw with the MacBooks, to which he replied it is possible as we saw it with the MacBooks, but not to hold my breath.....

Seriously, how much longer could it be??!!!!

Store staff don’t know nor do they have inside information about what products are coming out, the only people who know are the higher up executives and Tim Cook of course.

Ming Chi Kuo released a report a few weeks back which said an iMac with “significant display-performance upgrades” will be coming later this year.

https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/11/kuo-iphone-ipad-mac-apple-watch-rumors/
 

andrewhowe00

macrumors newbie
Jul 24, 2018
6
18
Store staff don’t know nor do they have inside information about what products are coming out, the only people who know are the higher up executives and Tim Cook of course.

Ming Chi Kuo released a report a few weeks back which said an iMac with “significant display-performance upgrades” will be coming later this year.

https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/11/kuo-iphone-ipad-mac-apple-watch-rumors/

Gotta side with Dave245 here. The apple representatives and geniuses have no idea as to when Apple will refresh their lines. There's no way Apple is gonna blueball their entire customer base and not upgrade those 7th-gen processors to 8th-gen before the next year. And really, that's all I'm looking for before I purchase a new iMac. I'm on a pretty old Macbook pro and I am just trying to hold out until Apple refreshes their iMac line.
 
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