No 2018 iMac?!

[EugW]

It's not that I don't like Apple products, I'm just saying that when comparing hardware between a custom PC and the 2017 iMac, the iMac doesn't have very good value right now. Sure if you think the 5k display and macOS is worth $1000+ go for it I was ready to go for it a few months ago, but I can't get myself to spend that money on outdated hardware on top of that.

The 5K display is totally frickin' awesome.

 

[Mol1n]

An 8 core CPU would need much better cooling than what the iMac has anyway. Current cooling can't cool an i7 chip effectively at all. It's truly abysmal.

I'm going to ask my related question here. The Radeon Pro 570 appears to consume 120w, and the i5 7500 runs on 65. Exactly how are the thermals on the iMac 5k when running say games or doing audio work?

At that kind of wattage PCs would typically need much bigger enclosures than the single screen format of the iMac.

If it throttles badly (or runs at like >90C) then I'll be looking at the base 21.5 model.

 

[Pressure]

Spoiler: iMac like build

PCPartPicker part list: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/xHdJNQ
Price breakdown by merchant: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/xHdJNQ/by_merchant/

CPU: Intel - Core i7-8700K 3.7GHz 6-Core Processor ($360.98 @ Newegg Business)
CPU Cooler: Noctua - NH-D15 82.5 CFM CPU Cooler ($85.22 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Asus - ROG STRIX Z370-E GAMING ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($197.88 @ OutletPC)
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($74.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung - 970 Pro 1.0TB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive ($397.99 @ Amazon)
Video Card: MSI - Radeon RX 580 8GB ARMOR OC Video Card ($238.00 @ B&H)
Case: NZXT - H500 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case ($69.99 @ Amazon)
Monitor: LG - 27UD68-W 27.0" 3840x2160 60Hz Monitor ($447.62 @ Amazon)
Total: $1872.67
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-09-20 19:03 EDT-0400

View attachment 785091

Sure the monitor is not as good, but you're still getting better hardware for $1200 less.

About 10 months ago when I started waiting for a refresh I was also defending the added value of the iMac. Now I got tired of waiting forever. Apple's attitude towards the Mac is really annoying.

iMac Pros:
- macOS supported out of the box
- better screen
- nice (although outdated) design
- Apple's support (expensive if you're not getting AC, or more expensive upfront if you're getting it)

PC Pros:
- Lower price or MUCH better hardware for the same price
- Ability to repair/upgrade components
- Support for nvidia cards
- Much better cooling
- Being able to pay for what you want/need instead of what Apple decided is good for you
- Not having to wait forever until Apple decides the sales are low enough to warrant an update

The equivalent 5K monitor would be the LG UltraFine 5K, which goes for $1,299.95. Let's be honest, that 5K monitor is the big selling point of the 27" iMac.

You also seem to be missing Thunderbolt? So you need the Asus ThunderboltEX3 and compatible motherboard.
But we both know it is not just about the hardware but also form factor.

 

[294307]

I'm going to ask my related question here. The Radeon Pro 570 appears to consume 120w, and the i5 7500 runs on 65. Exactly how are the thermals on the iMac 5k when running say games or doing audio work?

At that kind of wattage PCs would typically need much bigger enclosures than the single screen format of the iMac.

If it throttles badly (or runs at like >90C) then I'll be looking at the base 21.5 model.

I have this configuration and I have never seen core temperatures rise above 70℃ (it usually stays around 50℃ - 55℃ when the machine isn't under load). In particular to temperatures on the Radeon Pro 570 GPU, perhaps someone else can comment on that. It may require an utility like iStat Menu to find out.

The high-end 21.5-inch iMac has the same 3.4 GHz (i5-7500) CPU as the low-end 27-inch iMac but with a slightly less powerful GPU, so it would be reasonable to assume you won't see a big difference in thermal capacity between the two machines.

 

[Glmnet1]

The equivalent 5K monitor would be the LG UltraFine 5K, which goes for $1,299.95. Let's be honest, that 5K monitor is the big selling point of the 27" iMac.

You also seem to be missing Thunderbolt? So you need the Asus ThunderboltEX3 and compatible motherboard.
But we both know it is not just about the hardware but also form factor.

Thunderbolt 3 on a desktop is not really useful when you have access to pci slots. On an iMac it's useful because it's almost as closed and non-upgradeable as a MBP.

As for the lg 5k, I personally wouldn't pay that much money for what is has to offer. That's part of the reason why I think a custom pc is cheaper, most people don't need/want exactly the specs offered by the iMac configurations. If you want upgradeable RAM you have to pay for the bigger screen, if you want a faster GPU you have to pay for a better CPU too etc.

But really it's far from being just about the cost/value, I'm simply tired of this waiting game. It's as if they are trying to starve people for an upgrade so that whatever cost cutting and planned obsolescence strategies they come up with next will be accepted more easily because we "need" new Macs. Just like they did and keep doing with the Mac Pro -> iMac Pro situation.

I hope I'm wrong and that Apple will turn around soon but right now I'm not impressed.

 

[vojislavsh]

I have this configuration and I have never seen core temperatures rise above 70℃ (it usually stays around 50℃ - 55℃ when the machine isn't under load). In particular to temperatures on the Radeon Pro 570 GPU, perhaps someone else can comment on that. It may require an utility like iStat Menu to find out.

The high-end 21.5-inch iMac has the same 3.4 GHz (i5-7500) CPU as the low-end 27-inch iMac but with a slightly less powerful GPU, so it would be reasonable to assume you won't see a big difference in thermal capacity between the two machines.

Same case here.

 

[Mol1n]

I have this configuration and I have never seen core temperatures rise above 70℃ (it usually stays around 50℃ - 55℃ when the machine isn't under load). In particular to temperatures on the Radeon Pro 570 GPU, perhaps someone else can comment on that. It may require an utility like iStat Menu to find out.

Why is this guy's 575 running at 95 Celsius?

The high-end 21.5-inch iMac has the same 3.4 GHz (i5-7500) CPU as the low-end 27-inch iMac but with a slightly less powerful GPU, so it would be reasonable to assume you won't see a big difference in thermal capacity between the two machines.

I was thinking of the dual core model with the iGPU.

 

[Zdigital2015]

Why is this guy's 575 running at 95 Celsius?

I was thinking of the dual core model with the iGPU.

I would highly recommend coughing up the extra money for at least the next highest unit (4K, 3.0GHz, 8GB DRAM, 1TB HDD, Radeon 555) and stay way away from the dual-core. The extra $200 USD gets you a 4K display, faster 4-core CPU (socketed), discrete GPU and 2 DRAM slots. You will end up cursing the dual-core within 6 months. It's a loss leader for the education market, nothing more. Apple never should have released it to the general public.

 

[rnsinput]

I would like this thread to focus on questions around when the next iMac is likely and what likely configurations would be and what current iMac owners would like to see. I am interested in links supporting positions. I will start by indicating what I would most like to see as a potential purchaser.

• Newer more capable high performance competitive GPU
• Latest generation Intel CPUs. I would prefer a recently released generation that would give some longevity to the update.
• Screen size increase
• Retention of user upgradability
• Two TB3 controllers with 2 TB3 ports each
• 10GBe port
• 128GB RAM maximum
• 8K screen option

Those are some things I can think of. Please weigh in with your thoughts. I created this thread because the others that I looked at in some cases veered off track and in others just weren't that helpful to me as a potential next generation iMac purchaser.

According to the MacRumors Buyers Guide for iMac it has been 473 days since the last update as of today. That is the third longest time. The other two longer times are 577 and 601 days.

One last thing... I have become a little confused about the "generations" of the current and upcoming Intel CPUs. Can someone knowledgable on this comment on it. I have read about 7th and 8th and 9th generations and Kaby Lake Refresh (Kaby-R) and Coffee Lake and Ice Lake, but frankly with the i3, i5, i7, i9 and 4 core, 6 core, 8 core and 4 thread, and 6 thread, and 8 thread, and 12 thread, and 16 thread I'm confused. I think the Coffee Lake is 8th generation and I have heard it speculated that the i9 9700K 8 core 16 thread is a possibility for the next CTO iMac. I am thinking too that if it is going to be updated this year for sales purposes getting it available in time for Christmas would be important.

Again, any help with straightening out the CPU confusion would be great.

As for the GPU scenario, I have seen almost nothing... the Vega 56 and 64 as I understand it have power needs. The Radeon Pro 580 in the 2017 iMac was behind the curve when it was released many have said. Has anyone heard of anything on the GPU for the next iMac?

Thank you everyone in advance for your input and help.

 

[Grohowiak]

I just bought the 2017 so I’m not in the “I’m buying it market” but it would be nice in my opinion if apple would add user replaceable HD and better cooling for both 21 & 27.

If they bump the specs while keeping the same internal design it will mean that the cpu will get auto throttling. What’s the point then?
Here’s a M4 with 80mph speed limiter enjoy.

 

[Grohowiak]

I would highly recommend coughing up the extra money for at least the next highest unit (4K, 3.0GHz, 8GB DRAM, 1TB HDD, Radeon 555) and stay way away from the dual-core. The extra $200 USD gets you a 4K display, faster 4-core CPU (socketed), discrete GPU and 2 DRAM slots. You will end up cursing the dual-core within 6 months. It's a loss leader for the education market, nothing more. Apple never should have released it to the general public.

I agree.
Dual cores should disappear already. They are an insult in 2018.

 

[rnsinput]

Those are great points, the thermal design and the upgradable storage.... Apple prides itself on engineering prowess. That would be a great goal... restore storage upgradability and improve the thermal cooling. I believe the iMac Pro's cooling should give them a head start... restoring storage upgradability would be welcomed even at greater thickness in my estimation.

So the list is...

GPU, CPU, cooling, enhanced upgradability, larger screen size, 2 TB3 controllers with 4 TB3 ports, 10GBe, 8K screen option, up to 128GB RAM

Thanks!!!!

I also came across this info on CPUs...

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/03/intel-debuts-core-i9-coffee-lake-eighth-gen/

It seems these were announced in April and will be available in early October and are the 8th Generation Coffee Lake CPUs.

 

[Zdigital2015]

I agree.
Dual cores should disappear already. They are an insult in 2018.

It was relatively cheap for them to update the 1.4GHz iMac to a 2.3GHz considering its basically just a 13" nTB MacBook Pro. However, it would be a lot easier to tell someone to go and get it, if the price was $799 or even $899. But for $1099, w/ a 5400RPM HDD and a non-Retina screen is too much to swallow in 2018. Even the most modest of BTO options puts the price at ridiculous...if it was a 4-core 8350U, 8GB RAM and a 1TB Fusion, one could make an argument, not a strong one, but an argument. I am hoping that Apple drops this model, significantly upgrades it or reduces the cost to blow it out at Best Buy. Probably discontinue if the Mac mini shows up and is a decent update. A 21.5" display with sRGB is pretty cheap these days, better yet, a Dell P2715Q can be had for $350 and who knows what Black Friday may bring in 4K bargains.

 

[sober2ndthought]

Can you show me your PC build with prices and a comparable to iMac 5K monitor?

Mine is a bit old but sure so I will replace my no longer available parts with modern parts:

Thermal Take MK-ii Chaster
Kingston Hyperx RAM
Core i5 4690k
Asus z97-Pro Gamer motherboard

Since I am in Canada I'll use Canadian Dollars.

Core i5 8600k + Gigabyte Aorus Ultra Gaming Board - $534.99
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/BDL_MM00001252

EVGA GeForce GTX 1070 Ti - $659.99 (I have a normal GTX 1070 FTW)
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX69137

Corsair Vengeance 16 GB DDR4 2400 MHZ - $209.99
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX64510

1TB Samsung 860 Evo 2.5in SSD, SATA III - $219.99
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX70319

ThermalTake Versa C21 - $79.99
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX64841

SuperNOVA 750 G3 Modular Power Supply, 750W - $129.99
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX64228

Total $1833.95 CDN

Extras:

Windows 10 Pro $199.99

LG Ultrafine 5k Monitor - $899.99

https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produ...r-3hZ8pXk09pML5WZ0waAsP6EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Microsoft Designer Bluetooth Desktop, Wireless Keyboard & Mouse Combo $89.99 (I picked this cause it was wireless)
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX56935

Grand total:
$2933.93 CDN or 2,270.22 USD:

Compare that to the price of the 27' 5K iMac at $3079 CDN.

I have a current generation, overclockable Core i5
Double the ram
I have a 1 TB SSD v 1 TB HDD
I have a better GPU

I could have made even better choices, like giving up the Windows 10 Pro for home edition, 512 GB SSD, 550 WATT non-modular power supply, regular non-overclockable core i5, a B motherboard, and non-Ti GPU. I could have saved even more but I wanted to be somewhat fair.

I like Apple, I used to be a bit of an Apple Fan Boy. I used a MacBook since the first Black MacBook came out. What made me one was the simple fact that I was getting good value for my money. I also was able to upgrade my MacBook as needed, installed a SSD, upgraded to 16 GBs. My old Macbook Pro 13 lasted forever and it still works fine. I paid a premium but I also got a premium specked laptop.

But I cannot justify buying a new MacBook Pro or any other Mac, its outdated, cannot be upgraded, and repair is impossible. But I am still paying a premium for it. I always had my complaints about Apple, but I never felt horribly ripped off by the company.

 

[DQ11]

I'm going to ask my related question here. The Radeon Pro 570 appears to consume 120w, and the i5 7500 runs on 65. Exactly how are the thermals on the iMac 5k when running say games or doing audio work?

At that kind of wattage PCs would typically need much bigger enclosures than the single screen format of the iMac.

If it throttles badly (or runs at like >90C) then I'll be looking at the base 21.5 model.

The 21.5" has an i7-7700 (non-k) that runs at 65w, and is good for audio....I just wish they would have put that stock in the 27" and the cooling wouldn't have been as big of an issue.

 

[Grohowiak]

I will add one more thing.
Adjustable height.
This is pretty much the only thing I absolutely hate about the iMac.
I like top of my monitor to sit at eye level and with the iMac I have to look up. Makes me dizzy at times.

 

[mreg376]

Are we really going to do ANOTHER thread on the 2018 iMac wishlist??

 

[rnsinput]

Are we really going to do ANOTHER thread on the 2018 iMac wishlist??

I think only those who want to are going to.... just ignore the thread if you aren't interested.
[doublepost=1537587294][/doublepost]

I will add one more thing.
Adjustable height.
This is pretty much the only thing I absolutely hate about the iMac.
I like top of my monitor to sit at eye level and with the iMac I have to look up. Makes me dizzy at times.

That is another idea I have seen and didn't remember... so here is the list....

GPU, CPU, cooling, enhanced upgradability, larger screen size, 2 TB3 controllers with 4 TB3 ports, 10GBe, 8K screen option, up to 128GB RAM, better screen adjustment especially height.

 

[Mol1n]

I would highly recommend coughing up the extra money for at least the next highest unit (4K, 3.0GHz, 8GB DRAM, 1TB HDD, Radeon 555) and stay way away from the dual-core. The extra $200 USD gets you a 4K display, faster 4-core CPU (socketed), discrete GPU and 2 DRAM slots. You will end up cursing the dual-core within 6 months. It's a loss leader for the education market, nothing more. Apple never should have released it to the general public.

Well I'm not really buying the one they're selling right now. The point of this thread is to wait for the refresh, but I assumed that there would be another model without a dgpu.

The 21.5" has an i7-7700 (non-k) that runs at 65w, and is good for audio....I just wish they would have put that stock in the 27" and the cooling wouldn't have been as big of an issue.

I was thinking the same thing. 21.5" @ 1080p is kind of insufficient for working in modern day DAWs.

 

[alien3dx]

Mine is a bit old but sure so I will replace my no longer available parts with modern parts:

Thermal Take MK-ii Chaster
Kingston Hyperx RAM
Core i5 4690k
Asus z97-Pro Gamer motherboard

Since I am in Canada I'll use Canadian Dollars.

Core i5 8600k + Gigabyte Aorus Ultra Gaming Board - $534.99
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/BDL_MM00001252

EVGA GeForce GTX 1070 Ti - $659.99 (I have a normal GTX 1070 FTW)
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX69137

Corsair Vengeance 16 GB DDR4 2400 MHZ - $209.99
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX64510

1TB Samsung 860 Evo 2.5in SSD, SATA III - $219.99
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX70319

ThermalTake Versa C21 - $79.99
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX64841

SuperNOVA 750 G3 Modular Power Supply, 750W - $129.99
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX64228

Total $1833.95 CDN

Extras:

Windows 10 Pro $199.99

LG Ultrafine 5k Monitor - $899.99

https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produ...r-3hZ8pXk09pML5WZ0waAsP6EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Microsoft Designer Bluetooth Desktop, Wireless Keyboard & Mouse Combo $89.99 (I picked this cause it was wireless)
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX56935

Grand total:
$2933.93 CDN or 2,270.22 USD:

Compare that to the price of the 27' 5K iMac at $3079 CDN.

I have a current generation, overclockable Core i5
Double the ram
I have a 1 TB SSD v 1 TB HDD
I have a better GPU

I could have made even better choices, like giving up the Windows 10 Pro for home edition, 512 GB SSD, 550 WATT non-modular power supply, regular non-overclockable core i5, a B motherboard, and non-Ti GPU. I could have saved even more but I wanted to be somewhat fair.

I like Apple, I used to be a bit of an Apple Fan Boy. I used a MacBook since the first Black MacBook came out. What made me one was the simple fact that I was getting good value for my money. I also was able to upgrade my MacBook as needed, installed a SSD, upgraded to 16 GBs. My old Macbook Pro 13 lasted forever and it still works fine. I paid a premium but I also got a premium specked laptop.

But I cannot justify buying a new MacBook Pro or any other Mac, its outdated, cannot be upgraded, and repair is impossible. But I am still paying a premium for it. I always had my complaints about Apple, but I never felt horribly ripped off by the company.

If compare to basic pc builder, i also cannot justify. But some people are used to printing, some said color in osx equal with printing color, some developer like me , some are used to Final Cut Pro are no choice to buy even base line.

But for me and poster, we been buying 500 ~ 700 dollar laptop which cannot pro-long to 1 year or max 3year. We hope the return on investment live 5 to 8 year justify it .

 

[Dave245]

The 5K display is totally frickin' awesome.

I agree with this! The last time I went into a Curry’s PC world here in the U.K. I looked at the 5K iMac and it looked awesome even in the store and with the desktop wallpaper. I imagine watching content on it is just brilliant.

 

[EugW]

I agree with this! The last time I went into a Curry’s PC world here in the U.K. I looked at the 5K iMac and it looked awesome even in the store and with the desktop wallpaper. I imagine watching content on it is just brilliant.

Watching content is fine but it’s an IPS display so it still has the same disadvantages in that regard. For watching content I prefer to use my 65” 4K OLED TV. Plus, Macs do not support any DRM’d 4K streaming (yet) so you’re mainly stuck with 1080p.

My comment was more about desktop usage. Text quality is amazing and you can run any resolution without loss of text clarity.

 

[Dave245]

Watching content is fine but it’s an IPS display so it still has the same disadvantages in that regard. For watching content I prefer to use my 65” 4K OLED TV. Plus, Macs do not support any DRM’d 4K streaming (yet) so you’re mainly stuck with 1080p.

My comment was more about desktop usage. Text quality is amazing and you can run any resolution without loss of text clarity.

I meant watching stuff on Youtube, i tested in the shop and compared to my 2012 iMac there was so much more detail, colours looked more vivid and it just seemed brighter and A LOT better.

 

[Lammers]

so here is the list....

GPU, CPU, cooling, enhanced upgradability, larger screen size, 2 TB3 controllers with 4 TB3 ports, 10GBe, 8K screen option, up to 128GB RAM, better screen adjustment especially height.

And naturally you also want all of those things at the existing price points?

 

[Zdigital2015]

I think only those who want to are going to.... just ignore the thread if you aren't interested.
[doublepost=1537587294][/doublepost]



That is another idea I have seen and didn't remember... so here is the list....

GPU, CPU, cooling, enhanced upgradability, larger screen size, 2 TB3 controllers with 4 TB3 ports, 10GBe, 8K screen option, up to 128GB RAM, better screen adjustment especially height.

Hate to burst your bubble, but:

* GPU - R500x, we are in an AMD “nothing to intro” cycle until 2019 when 7nm R600 and Vega Instinct are introduced
* CPU - 8th and 9th generation Core, for better or worse, depending on availability
* Cooling - Modified or iMac Pro and then goodbye RAM door
* Larger screen size - no, DPI is tied to screen size, so 27” is optimal for 5K resolution @2x according to Apple
* Enhanced upgradability - This is Apple, remember, you will probably be losing the RAM door with this refresh
* 2 TB3 controllers - possible, enough PCIe lanes on Z390 PCH, but not really feasible and unlikely given the lack of PCIe lanes on the CPU which forces communication through 8GT/s DMI, also this is a market segment differentiation for upsell to the iMac Pro
* 10GbE - No, see above...besides TB3 dongles or docks are a better bet...10GbE is still a fringe use case at this point
* 8K screen - No, separate display in 2019 for Mac Pro that may be able to be hooked up via eGPU by iMac or not, you know Apple
* Up to 128GB of DRAM - No, Core series tops out at 64GB supported, higher requires iMac Pro or Mac Pro
* Better screen adjustment - No, using same chassis and stand, no new design this year

The iMac update will be a decent one, even if it is a bit underwhelming.
[doublepost=1537629081][/doublepost]

Well I'm not really buying the one they're selling right now. The point of this thread is to wait for the refresh, but I assumed that there would be another model without a dgpu.

Sorry, I inferred a desire to purchase and I should have not done that. Gut reaction to try and stop the madness.