No more nvidia chips in Apple's computer line

[goalque]

Cool, but we weren't talking about compute. We know OpenCL can seek compute cores across different vendor GPUs. This part of the discussion segued from gaming and OpenGL API support for mixed GPUs on OSX.

As far as I know, OpenGL can be used for offscreen drawing and computing as well:

https://developer.apple.com/library...gGuide/opengl_offscreen/opengl_offscreen.html

However, I guess not many apps take advantage of this, especially in multiple GPU environment. I see that Metal will eventually replace both OpenCL and OpenGL. Core Animation and Core Graphics are built on top of Metal according to the WWDC 2015 slides. We just have to wait for the first games…

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

As far as I know, OpenGL can be used for offscreen drawing and computing as well:

https://developer.apple.com/library...gGuide/opengl_offscreen/opengl_offscreen.html

However, I guess not many apps take advantage of this, especially in multiple GPU environment. I see that Metal will eventually replace both OpenCL and OpenGL. Core Animation and Core Graphics are built on top of Metal according to the WWDC 2015 slides. We just have to wait for the first games…

It will take a long time for Metal to replace GL. Blizzard says it's buggy and needs updates. Adobe has backtracked on supporting it and says they have no immediate plans for Metal. On Windows DirectX didn't even manage to replace GL in many pro apps after all these years.

 

[tuxon86]

It will take a long time for Metal to replace GL. Blizzard says it's buggy and needs updates. Adobe has backtracked on supporting it and says they have no immediate plans for Metal. On Windows DirectX didn't even manage to replace GL in many pro apps after all these years.

OpenGL support in Blizzard game is at an end of life status. If I force the World of Warcraft client to use OpenGL I get a warning that my GPU won't be supported in the future and most of the graphic settings are disabled. This is with a GTX 780Ti with the latest NVidia drivers on windows 10. I also tried it in Linux with the same result. And before you ask, my GPU does support the latest OpenGL version.

Beside the rumours running presently is that Vulkan will make its debut in about 2 months according to Reddit chatter...

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

OpenGL support in Blizzard game is at an end of life status. If I force the World of Warcraft client to use OpenGL I get a warning that my GPU won't be supported in the future and most of the graphic settings are disabled. This is with a GTX 780Ti with the latest NVidia drivers on windows 10. I also tried it in Linux with the same result. And before you ask, my GPU does support the latest OpenGL version.

Beside the rumours running presently is that Vulkan will make its debut in about 2 months according to Reddit chatter...

Yeah it makes no sense for Windows games to be based on OpenGL at all.

 

[teagls]

It will take a long time for Metal to replace GL. Blizzard says it's buggy and needs updates. Adobe has backtracked on supporting it and says they have no immediate plans for Metal. On Windows DirectX didn't even manage to replace GL in many pro apps after all these years.

Unfortunately Metal on Mac OS X has turned out to not be that great. The api feels like it's still in infancy, and it's plagued by driver issues just like OpenGL/OpenCL is. In any case OpenGL will be around for quite awhile because so many legacy applications use it. It will take atleast 2 years for Metal to really be ironed out.

 

[mcnallym]

The many complaints of the new mac pro clearly posted on Mac Rumors forums is not 'anecdotal evidence.' Please stop posting false information.

What are the numbers of complaints from people here on macrumors. I see a lot of complaints from the same people over and over again.

Against the number of Mac Pro's actually sold and in use, do you believe that the many complaints on macrumors is a significantly large proportion of people that are buying Mac's to register on Apple's radar.

I am not saying that there aren't people that aren't happy with the direction that Apple has gone with the nMP, but to say that Apple has screwed over the Pro market with the direction it is going won't fly based on members of Macrumors opinions.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/10/pc-shipments-plunge-apple-surges-on-macbook.html

Would actually appear to indicate that despite Apple dumbing down the Mac's in terms of what users can do, they are actually shipping more units out the door. Those figures don't include iPads, iPods, iPhones so are just Mac's.

All of the Mac's now are getting locked down, less user friendly in terms of user upgrades, yet Apple are shipping more Mac's out the door.

So if users are so unhappy with the direction that Apple are going with the Mac's. ALL Macs have gone the same route in terms of being less upgradeable, then actual sales would appear to indicate that globally users aren't unhappy with Apple, and the direction that they are going.

 

[lowendlinux]

What are the numbers of complaints from people here on macrumors. I see a lot of complaints from the same people over and over again.

Against the number of Mac Pro's actually sold and in use, do you believe that the many complaints on macrumors is a significantly large proportion of people that are buying Mac's to register on Apple's radar.

I am not saying that there aren't people that aren't happy with the direction that Apple has gone with the nMP, but to say that Apple has screwed over the Pro market with the direction it is going won't fly based on members of Macrumors opinions.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/10/pc-shipments-plunge-apple-surges-on-macbook.html

Would actually appear to indicate that despite Apple dumbing down the Mac's in terms of what users can do, they are actually shipping more units out the door. Those figures don't include iPads, iPods, iPhones so are just Mac's.

All of the Mac's now are getting locked down, less user friendly in terms of user upgrades, yet Apple are shipping more Mac's out the door.

So if users are so unhappy with the direction that Apple are going with the Mac's. ALL Macs have gone the same route in terms of being less upgradeable, then actual sales would appear to indicate that globally users aren't unhappy with Apple, and the direction that they are going.

I don't know if it necessarily a good idea to compare the wider consumer PC market with the workstation market. Different customers and a different intended use to top it I don't think workstations are included in general PC market share as companies break them out along with servers.

 

[JoSch]

It's not an opinion. You clearly reject the many real complaints about the new mac pro and pretend they dont exist.

No, I don't reject the complaints. I certainly register that they are existing. You're just using the complaints as prove that Apple screws their customers and that the nMP is not a computer at all (yes, that's pointed).
I reject the notion, that the reasons for the complaints are entirely facts, but they are mostly opinions, e.g. about what the Macpro should be. You can have an opinion about whether the nMP must have slots or not. You can have an opinion, that the nMP is not an pro computer because of that.
But calling it a fact, that the Macpro is not an pro computer because of that, is a stretch.

 

[JoSch]

Unfortunately Metal on Mac OS X has turned out to not be that great. The api feels like it's still in infancy, and it's plagued by driver issues just like OpenGL/OpenCL is. In any case OpenGL will be around for quite awhile because so many legacy applications use it. It will take atleast 2 years for Metal to really be ironed out.

Well, that's APIs for you. Remember WinG?

 

[bladerunner2000]

No, I don't reject the complaints. I certainly register that they are existing. I'm just using the complaints as prove that Apple screws their customers and that the nMP is not a computer at all (yes, that's pointed).
I reject the notion, that the reasons for the complaints are entirely facts, but mostly opinions, e.g. about what the Macpro should be. You can have an opinion about whether the nMP must have slots or not. You can have an opinion, that the nMP is not an pro computer because of that.
But calling it a fact, that the Macpro is not an pro computer because of that, is a stretch.

AGAIN, another lie. I never said that.

 

[ActionableMango]

I've seen many "Apple doesn't care about Pro market" complaints other than just "no slots on nMP":

• The "iOS-ification" of OS X
• Aperture going years without updates
• Apple dumping Shake
• Apple dumping Xserve
• Moving SW engineers from OS X to iOS
• Loss of MP and MM server models
• Loss of 4-core MM models
• Number of CPU and memory sockets halved in MP
  
• Loss of drive bays in MP
• Final Cut Pro X removing features critical to Pro users
• Nothing that can run CUDA across the entire lineup
• Mac Pro getting very long time between updates (for cMP and now nMP too)
• Removing the 17-in option from the MacBook Pro

Google "Apple Pro Market" and you'll see many of these topics hit the technology news sites--the complaints are not limited to just a couple of the same people complaining on MR forums over and over again about loss of MP slots.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I've seen many "Apple doesn't care about Pro market" complaints other than just "no slots on nMP":

• The "iOS-ification" of OS X
• Aperture going years without updates
• Apple dumping Shake
• Apple dumping Xserve
• Moving SW engineers from OS X to iOS
• Loss of MP and MM server models
• Loss of 4-core MM models
• Number of CPU and memory sockets halved in MP
  
• Loss of drive bays in MP
• Final Cut Pro X removing features critical to Pro users
• Nothing that can run CUDA across the entire lineup
• Mac Pro getting very long time between updates (for cMP and now nMP too)
• Removing the 17-in option from the MacBook Pro

Google "Apple Pro Market" and you'll see many of these topics hit the technology news sites--the complaints are not limited to just a couple of the same people complaining on MR forums over and over again about loss of MP slots.

The worst part of that is they bought apps like Shake and then dumped those apps. That means the developers and employees who created apps like that benefited for a short time but in the long run they lost years of income, work and development goals. And the market ended up with less software choices.

 

[goMac]

Unfortunately Metal on Mac OS X has turned out to not be that great. The api feels like it's still in infancy, and it's plagued by driver issues just like OpenGL/OpenCL is. In any case OpenGL will be around for quite awhile because so many legacy applications use it. It will take atleast 2 years for Metal to really be ironed out.

Called it months ago. Metal isn't going to save gaming or pro apps on OS X, at least not in it's current form. It's a mobile API that can't take advantage of modern desktop GPU features.

It'll be great for porting Angry Birds to the Mac though!

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Called it months ago. Metal isn't going to save gaming or pro apps on OS X, at least not in it's current form. It's a mobile API that can't take advantage of modern desktop GPU features.

It'll be great for porting Angry Birds to the Mac though!

And my suspicions are that is to pave the way for iOS game developers to bring their games to Macs with a desktop version of iOS. OS X gaming isn't the goal.

 

[goMac]

And my suspicions are that is to pave the way for iOS game developers to bring their games to Macs with a desktop version of iOS. OS X gaming isn't the goal.

Adobe's move here is pretty obvious. They're playing hardball with Apple to get them to implement Vulkan. The best way to do that is to boycott Metal.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Adobe's move here is pretty obvious. They're playing hardball with Apple to get them to implement Vulkan. The best way to do that is to boycott Metal.

They also invested a lot in their own Mercury engine.

 

[teagls]

And my suspicions are that is to pave the way for iOS game developers to bring their games to Macs with a desktop version of iOS. OS X gaming isn't the goal.

I think Apple tried to over sell it on the desktop as a way to do just that, simplify development between their platforms, but it might come back to haunt them and really hurt their users. Look at Blizzard, for the past decade they have always had PC/Mac games. They announced their new game Overwatch will be strictly PC and not for Mac. That is huge in my opinion and a sign of bad things to come.

 

[goalque]

Called it months ago. Metal isn't going to save gaming or pro apps on OS X, at least not in it's current form. It's a mobile API that can't take advantage of modern desktop GPU features.

It's a bit buggy in its current form, but here's a proof of concept with a GTX 780 6GB: http://forum.techinferno.com/apple-...pu-os-x-inc-display-output-31.html#post148580

 

[OS6-OSX]

The worst part of that is they bought apps like Shake and then dumped those apps....

Please don't get me started on the Shake Shenanigans! Years ago in a non-Apple Shake forum we all heard the news of Nothing's Real of Santa Monica being purchased by Apple! Great! Apple's $ with NR's knowledge = WOW! As time passed after the purchase the name Phenomenon was floating around. Everything was falling into place. With Apple's $ the 3D part of Shake that was suspect would get tweaked. It didn't have far to go because ILM and WETA had written tools to over come Shake's short comings. The forum was buzzing! Then came the Apple BS! Apple decided to base "Phenomenon" on it's app Motion. It would not be node based! I can still hear the laughter from the forum! Next the NR people left Apple for The Foundry and joined the Nuke team!
Now that was some Shake Shenanigans by Apple!
And based on that Nvidia will not have chips in Macs. Wow, almost got off topic!

 

[JoSch]

AGAIN, another lie. I never said that.

So, that's your whole defense, saying you didn't said that literally.

Another lie.

There's been many complaints about apple's approach to the Mac Pro. Whether or not you accept the complaints as reality is your own problem, but that doesn't change the FACT that Apple *has* screwed it's prosumers.

But you said this. It's in the same ballpark. It was a deduction from your statement above.
My argument fits all the same: The prosumers feel screwed. That's an opinion.

I myself am a prosumer. I'm not and I don't feel screwed. It follows, that the statement "Apple *has* screwed it's prosumers" is wrong. So that's not a fact.

 

[jeanlain]

Called it months ago. Metal isn't going to save gaming or pro apps on OS X, at least not in it's current form. It's a mobile API that can't take advantage of modern desktop GPU features.

It'll be great for porting Angry Birds to the Mac though!

OR Unreal Engine 4...
And blizzard said they had WoW running "fine" with Metal. It's not the most graphics intensive applications, though. They should port Starcraft 2 as well, and Unity will have their latest engine running on Metal. Not too shabby.

 

[jeanlain]

Adobe has backtracked on supporting it and says they have no immediate plans for Metal.

Adobe hasn't sent a clear message. One After Effect manager said they were exploring options, and a general manager said they were committed to supporting Metal.

 

[JoSch]

Yesterday, I updated 10.11 to 10.11.1 without thinking to update the Nvidia web driver beforehand.
OSX updated, rebooted. Lo and behold, the built in Nvidia driver didn't crash on my 750Ti.
Only the HD5770 was running, but I didn't try to reenable the 750Ti.
At least, I had no reboot loop. Anyone had a simular experience?

 

[bladerunner2000]

So, that's your whole defense, saying you didn't said that literally.


But you said this. It's in the same ballpark. It was a deduction from your statement above.
My argument fits all the same: The prosumers feel screwed. That's an opinion.

I myself am a prosumer. I'm not and I don't feel screwed. It follows, that the statement "Apple *has* screwed it's prosumers" is wrong. So that's not a fact.

Reading comprehension and semantics, please improve upon these things if you're going to continue twisting people's words around.

 

[tomvos]

The worst part of that is they bought apps like Shake and then dumped those apps. That means the developers and employees who created apps like that benefited for a short time but in the long run they lost years of income, work and development goals. And the market ended up with less software choices.

A long time ago I listened to a podcast where Ron Brinkman talked about Shake and Apple. He said the reason Apple bought Shake was to make sure that there was a high quality compositing application for the OS X platform. But once Nuke filled the position Shake once had, Apple no longer felt the need to supply a compositing solution. They were content with the fact that one of the best solutions (Nuke) was available for the OS X platform.