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Almost 100 replies to this thread and still you didn't get what this is all about.

Every idiot can go out and buy a high end machine with modern features (shall I name one? :)), only very few people can do what the OP is up to.
The journey is the destination.

If it could be done safely I'd support it, but that X58 PCH is fickle and prone to burning out if you add every type of upgrade possible that the chipset wasn't intended for. Don't say I didn't warn anyone.
 
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^^^^

cropped-paris_tuileries_garden_facepalm_statue.jpg


Lou
 
Hope a lot of people are interested in this project :)
I think it'll increase the Mac Pro's life span even more !

I'm a bit envious of your school project. I never did anything so interesting at my University. Sounds like a lot of work, but a lot of fun too.

Of course if you pull this off, a couple of years from now we will be expecting updates from you for bootable NVMe-2 and USB 3.1. ;)
 
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If there could be scope to figure out what causes the error in the boot section screen not displaying/causing the machine to hang when booting from some (Sonnet and other) PCIe SATA III adapters, that would be very helpful too.

That and if possible to ensure drives connected on such adapters are treated as internal rather than external, which would solve a lot of issues with BootCamp installations. :)
 
I think it'll increase the Mac Pro's life span even more !

I just cannot see worrying much about Mac Pros, especially towers, anymore. They were great machines in their time. I've got a really nice one but month by month they go more out of date. The company that developed and built them really no longer exists. Steve is not coming back so it might by time to move on.
 
If there could be scope to figure out what causes the error in the boot section screen not displaying/causing the machine to hang when booting from some (Sonnet and other) PCIe SATA III adapters, that would be very helpful too.

That and if possible to ensure drives connected on such adapters are treated as internal rather than external, which would solve a lot of issues with BootCamp installations. :)

I've been using an Apricorn Velo Duo 2 on my 2012 MP. I never had a boot screen problem with any Mac OS up to the latest El Capitan that I am running. It also worked fine with Windows 8.1 on an SSD mounted in the Velo Duo 2's second bay. The previous Sonnet I had definitely had issues.
 
I'm actually one of the very few people here from the looks of it who would benefit from high disk throughput, but NVMe still isn't going to make much difference if you're using a computer as a creative workstation which is NOT a narrow usage case from the cMP or nMP. Just stick this in your mind permanently : I was the first person to test official SM951 in a cMP and the only person here to RAID0 them for hard testing. However, I'm not here to be part of an emotional support group. If you want to live a life without seeing any from of critical thinking and realism then you are completely free to ignore people and live in a bubble instead of having a childish defensive reaction every time you see someone present another side of the coin.

Well, I for one appreciate your candidness. I'm sorry that the rest of the posters in this thread can't stomach being disagreed with without taking it personally and then attacking you personally.
 
Main goal atm is NVMe, then USB 3.0.
After that who knows what I'll be able to achieve :D

I appreciate your looking into this, but as a dude with his life tied up in his Mac, I can never stomach installing a non-Apple firmware, most especially because of the fact that if (and I'm not saying you are) you are a hacker, if I installed your firmware and then you owned my machine there would be no going back from that. And yes, there are firmware hacks for the Mac, in fact just this summer, there was a doozy, and part of El Capitan is new security around the ability to write to the firmware, etc.

What really irks me is Apple not already having firmware updates out for us. I realize our machines are not the latest model, but if Apple can afford to develop a self-driving car, they can gad-frakkin' well support their pro customers who forked over a huge premium for these towers. I'm honestly really tired of the idea that Apple would have abandoned us. Why can't we instead collectively band together and start emailing the crap out of Apple until they get of their arses and write an NVMe firmware update for all the old Mac Pros?

That new "Mac Pro" they gave us is anything but; I can't update to that weird thing without buying many thousands of dollars worth of external thunderbolt PCI chassis and SATA enclosures etc. on top of buying the machine, which comes with very outdated GPUs and no upgrade path.
 
I appreciate your looking into this, but as a dude with his life tied up in his Mac, I can never stomach installing a non-Apple firmware, most especially because of the fact that if (and I'm not saying you are) you are a hacker, if I installed your firmware and then you owned my machine there would be no going back from that. And yes, there are firmware hacks for the Mac, in fact just this summer, there was a doozy, and part of El Capitan is new security around the ability to write to the firmware, etc.

What really irks me is Apple not already having firmware updates out for us. I realize our machines are not the latest model, but if Apple can afford to develop a self-driving car, they can gad-frakkin' well support their pro customers who forked over a huge premium for these towers. I'm honestly really tired of the idea that Apple would have abandoned us. Why can't we instead collectively band together and start emailing the crap out of Apple until they get of their arses and write an NVMe firmware update for all the old Mac Pros?

That new "Mac Pro" they gave us is anything but; I can't update to that weird thing without buying many thousands of dollars worth of external thunderbolt PCI chassis and SATA enclosures etc. on top of buying the machine, which comes with very outdated GPUs and no upgrade path.

Apple aren't going to release firmware updates for 2010 or earlier machines to allow additional third-party hardware to run; what's in it for them? They don't sell any NVMe drives as upgrades, so they'd make no money developing firmware upgrade for these machines. Fundamentally, it's a business decision, rather than a technical limitation. Just look at the amazing work Tiamo did with the 64bit to 32bit thunk for 2006/2007 Mac Pros to enable OS X beyond 10.7.5.

I share your concerns about installing non-Apple firmware; my advice would be wait and see what happens. Someone is bound to be trigger happy and test it for you, sit back and see what they say.

The 2013 Mac Pro form factor has been discussed at length, so I don't think I need to elaborate on that point. Although I wonder if that machine will ever support NVMe either.

Getting stuff to do things it was never designed to do always holds a fascination with me, but if people in this thread desperately need this type of speed and can't wait or aren't enamoured with the idea of flashing their machines with custom firmware, the best SSD you can buy right now is the AHCI model of the SM951. I very much doubt Samsung will make many more AHCI drives, due to the inherent limitations of this standard.
 
Apple aren't going to release firmware updates for 2010 or earlier machines to allow additional third-party hardware to run; what's in it for them?

Maintaining customers is what's in it for them. Y'know, they just updated my iPad 3rd generation, which isn't much newer. Generally speaking if they support customers long-term, that is what keeps customers, especially professionals, encouraged to continue investing in Apple and paying that premium price tag, when HP or Dell offer workstations that are far more powerful these days. I'll stick with Apple as long as I can rely on them to stick with me, too.

Having a programmer spend a few days to incorporate these NVMe drivers into their firmware would probably be a very minimal investment for Apple to give a gesture to those of us who dropped $3k, $4k, $5k on their top-end machine, and want to keep it relevant. I'm much more encouraged to buy a nMP if they treat us right by not cutting us off from the future in machines that aren't even 10 years old yet.

It seems to be doctrine nowadays that beyond 2 or 3 years you're not supposed to be able to expect jack out of companies regarding hardware. But there's no reason that a computer shouldn't be a 10- or 20-year investment nowadays, now that they're powerful enough and expandable to last that long. What's the point of building a machine like the Mac Pro, with this level of expandability, if you're not going to make the most minimal effort to keep it compatible with third-party boards?

They don't sell any NVMe drives as upgrades, so they'd make no money developing firmware upgrade for these machines.

One of the best lessons you'll ever learn about business, son, is that treating customers right is how you make money, because customers who you treat right tell 10, 20, 30 of their friends. Me personally, I'm someone who all my family and friends come to, to ask me, "What should I buy?" I like to say, "Apple, because they update their products a lot longer than anyone else. You buy an iPhone, iPad, or Mac, you'll still be getting OS updates 4 or 5 years from now that makes it run better and have more features."

Fundamentally, it's a business decision, rather than a technical limitation. Just look at the amazing work Tiamo did with the 64bit to 32bit thunk for 2006/2007 Mac Pros to enable OS X beyond 10.7.5.

That's an illogical statement. Tiamo's hacking has nothing to do with whether a 2009 Mac Pro's logic board can technically boot from an NVMe SSD. Intel lists its 750 SSD, which is based on NVMe, as only being compatible with Z97 and X99 based logic boards, so it's entirely possible that the chipset on these older Mac Pros simply cannot talk to NVMe, no matter what Apple does to the UEFI BIOS. However I'd like it if they came out and said so, rather than just leaving us in the dust with no support, and I've written to Apple to request that they issue said update.

I share your concerns about installing non-Apple firmware; my advice would be wait and see what happens. Someone is bound to be trigger happy and test it for you, sit back and see what they say.

I've read about some PC folks who have successfully patched older UEFIs and added the driver modules from newer Z97 boards. UEFI is a fairly modular thing, and Apple does use standard Intel chipsets under the hood, albeit with their own "headless" UEFI implementation. They should still be able to toss in these easily available NVMe drivers though.

The 2013 Mac Pro form factor has been discussed at length, so I don't think I need to elaborate on that point. Although I wonder if that machine will ever support NVMe either.

I hear you. Well, I guess time will tell. If not, I guess we can look forward to some cheap used nMPs showing up on eBay when they release the Skylake variant with NVMe. :p I think that in a way, from a sales perspective, nMP is kind of brilliant, because the user just unplugs all the cables, gets the new one, plugs in all the cables, and boom upgrade done. Don't have to swap out PCI boards and hard drives.

Still I just hate Apple going back on its principles… remember the iMac add with Jeff Goldblum, where he talks about the lack of cables? Now we have more cables than ever, with nMP. Ironic.

Getting stuff to do things it was never designed to do always holds a fascination with me, but if people in this thread desperately need this type of speed and can't wait or aren't enamoured with the idea of flashing their machines with custom firmware, the best SSD you can buy right now is the AHCI model of the SM951. I very much doubt Samsung will make many more AHCI drives, due to the inherent limitations of this standard.

Yeah, I'm tempted to just buy one of those, and be done with it. I bought an 850 PRO but haven't opened it yet because I realized for an extra hundred bucks I could double my speed. I guess it wouldn't make that much of a difference for most things, but I figure since I'm doing it, why not get the best possible thing available at the time? I can put the 850 PRO into my 2012 MacBook Pro.
 
Maintaining customers is what's in it for them. Y'know, they just updated my iPad 3rd generation, which isn't much newer. Generally speaking if they support customers long-term, that is what keeps customers, especially professionals, encouraged to continue investing in Apple and paying that premium price tag, when HP or Dell offer workstations that are far more powerful these days. I'll stick with Apple as long as I can rely on them to stick with me, too.

Having a programmer spend a few days to incorporate these NVMe drivers into their firmware would probably be a very minimal investment for Apple to give a gesture to those of us who dropped $3k, $4k, $5k on their top-end machine, and want to keep it relevant. I'm much more encouraged to buy a nMP if they treat us right by not cutting us off from the future in machines that aren't even 10 years old yet.

It seems to be doctrine nowadays that beyond 2 or 3 years you're not supposed to be able to expect jack out of companies regarding hardware. But there's no reason that a computer shouldn't be a 10- or 20-year investment nowadays, now that they're powerful enough and expandable to last that long. What's the point of building a machine like the Mac Pro, with this level of expandability, if you're not going to make the most minimal effort to keep it compatible with third-party boards?



One of the best lessons you'll ever learn about business, son, is that treating customers right is how you make money, because customers who you treat right tell 10, 20, 30 of their friends. Me personally, I'm someone who all my family and friends come to, to ask me, "What should I buy?" I like to say, "Apple, because they update their products a lot longer than anyone else. You buy an iPhone, iPad, or Mac, you'll still be getting OS updates 4 or 5 years from now that makes it run better and have more features."



That's an illogical statement. Tiamo's hacking has nothing to do with whether a 2009 Mac Pro's logic board can technically boot from an NVMe SSD. Intel lists its 750 SSD, which is based on NVMe, as only being compatible with Z97 and X99 based logic boards, so it's entirely possible that the chipset on these older Mac Pros simply cannot talk to NVMe, no matter what Apple does to the UEFI BIOS. However I'd like it if they came out and said so, rather than just leaving us in the dust with no support, and I've written to Apple to request that they issue said update.



I've read about some PC folks who have successfully patched older UEFIs and added the driver modules from newer Z97 boards. UEFI is a fairly modular thing, and Apple does use standard Intel chipsets under the hood, albeit with their own "headless" UEFI implementation. They should still be able to toss in these easily available NVMe drivers though.



I hear you. Well, I guess time will tell. If not, I guess we can look forward to some cheap used nMPs showing up on eBay when they release the Skylake variant with NVMe. :p I think that in a way, from a sales perspective, nMP is kind of brilliant, because the user just unplugs all the cables, gets the new one, plugs in all the cables, and boom upgrade done. Don't have to swap out PCI boards and hard drives.

Still I just hate Apple going back on its principles… remember the iMac add with Jeff Goldblum, where he talks about the lack of cables? Now we have more cables than ever, with nMP. Ironic.



Yeah, I'm tempted to just buy one of those, and be done with it. I bought an 850 PRO but haven't opened it yet because I realized for an extra hundred bucks I could double my speed. I guess it wouldn't make that much of a difference for most things, but I figure since I'm doing it, why not get the best possible thing available at the time? I can put the 850 PRO into my 2012 MacBook Pro.

The PCH on the X58 chipset Apple uses doesn't have a great heatsink in the first place. If you were hypothetically pushing it to the max with 12 CPU cores, ton of RAM, modern GPU, NVME PCIE SSD, USB 3/3.1, etc the temperature in a warm environment, especially in a hot country, would be north of 80C and its lifespan will be reduced. You can choose a sustainable upgrade path or you can choose a risky path that will show no or little real world results and dead computer. Forum bragging rights aren't worth that cost.
 
Lauwie: this is very exciting, I keep my fingers crossed.
A good read here: http://www.win-raid.com/t871f13-Discussion-NVMe-BIOS-Modules-and-NVMe-Support.html
There's an interesting statement about page 16 (IIRC): NVMe support in BIOS isn't necessary when SSD has its own bootROM. No one has tested this on a Mac, but looks promising.

People: don't let the thread get derailed by pointless arguments (you know who I'm talking about).
All off-topics post should be reported, let's focus on things which could help the OP.
 
Hey Lauwie, it sounds like you've been successful in what I tried and failed at. I don't know if people appreciate how big an achievement it is to modify an Apple EFI, rewrite it to the EEPROM and have a Mac switch back on. That's pretty freakin' amazing mate, well done! I extracted the newer microcode from the MacPro5,1 EFI that enables the use of hex-core Westmere Xeons in MacPro4,1s, and I tried to implant it into the Xserve3,1s EFI, seeing as they're basically a 1U MacPro4,1 with less internal expansion. Every time I flashed the FrankenEFI to my Xserve it bricked and I've had to use a RaspberryPi BusPirate to (very slowly) restore a copy of the working EFI. I've changed the CRC32 checksum but I think it's still failing at the self-check so I musn't be repackaging the EFI properly, but I don't really know what I'm doing. I haven't looked at it for several months, it became so tedious and frustrating. If you could quickly outline the tools your using and the steps you're taking to make sure your Mac's EFI passes it's self-testing during boot, I'd love to get this project going again.

Edit: I was investigating this SPI Flash reader for the Teensy 2 before I threw in the towel, definitely an improvement over the BusPirate...

I run simulations before flashing the EFI ;)

Every time the system updates to a new version of OS X it reflashes back to the stock EFI for some reason.
Also the Weekly and Monthly scripts kinda don't like the custom EFI, and it isn't really clear as to why :p
 
I just cannot see worrying much about Mac Pros, especially towers, anymore. They were great machines in their time. I've got a really nice one but month by month they go more out of date. The company that developed and built them really no longer exists. Steve is not coming back so it might by time to move on.

Well tbh they're still quite powerful and with NVMe it will make it slightly more speedy, it's not suddenly gonna start hovering about the ground but still...

It is an awesome learning process, something that might be useful in the future :)
 
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Well, I for one appreciate your candidness. I'm sorry that the rest of the posters in this thread can't stomach being disagreed with without taking it personally and then attacking you personally.

You obviously suffer from the same blindness as SCSC. It's not about whether NVMe is practical or not. It's about supporting someone (a student no less) taking on a project that hasn't been done before. If he's successful, then great. It gives cMP owners another choice for hardware. If not, I'm sure he (and the MP community) will have learned something. And from this could come who-knows-what? Bootable USB 3.0 drives?

It's people that just chop down a guys inspiration and motivation for no good reason that people here can't stomach.
I don't know how old you are, but hopefully you haven't gotten around to parenting yet.
 
The PCH on the X58 chipset Apple uses doesn't have a great heatsink in the first place. If you were hypothetically pushing it to the max with 12 CPU cores, ton of RAM, modern GPU, NVME PCIE SSD, USB 3/3.1, etc the temperature in a warm environment, especially in a hot country, would be north of 80C and its lifespan will be reduced. You can choose a sustainable upgrade path or you can choose a risky path that will show no or little real world results and dead computer. Forum bragging rights aren't worth that cost.

You make a good point about heat.

So I should I get the SM951 or stick with 850 PRO? It's for my boot drive. Right now I'm on a RAID that gets about 190 MB/sec read, 150 MB/sec write, so I know that 850 PRO SSD is going to be at least double that, consistently, and much quieter. I have a 570 GTX in the 16x slot, but I have not had any heat issues. I want to upgrade my dual 2.26 GHz to probably the dual 3.06 GHz 6-cores that run under 100 watts; don't feel I need 3.46 GHz that bad, and the heat. I hear SM951 gets kind of hot itself.

For booting, launching applications, and working with Digital Performer project files in the 5-6gb range, and Adobe Bridge, seems like the SSD is mostly gonna act like a cache anyway. It's not like I'm going to be loading or saving big 4K video files back and forth. Should I just stick with 850 PRO?

I could put it in one of the optical bays if I need to keep the hard drives all occupied. I have SuperDrive and a BluRay but it's not like I ever need to use both at the same time.
 
You make a good point about heat.

So I should I get the SM951 or stick with 850 PRO? It's for my boot drive. Right now I'm on a RAID that gets about 190 MB/sec read, 150 MB/sec write, so I know that 850 PRO SSD is going to be at least double that, consistently, and much quieter. I have a 570 GTX in the 16x slot, but I have not had any heat issues. I want to upgrade my dual 2.26 GHz to probably the dual 3.06 GHz 6-cores that run under 100 watts; don't feel I need 3.46 GHz that bad, and the heat. I hear SM951 gets kind of hot itself.

For booting, launching applications, and working with Digital Performer project files in the 5-6gb range, and Adobe Bridge, seems like the SSD is mostly gonna act like a cache anyway. It's not like I'm going to be loading or saving big 4K video files back and forth. Should I just stick with 850 PRO?

I could put it in one of the optical bays if I need to keep the hard drives all occupied. I have SuperDrive and a BluRay but it's not like I ever need to use both at the same time.

Use an 850 Evo/Pro for your boot drive and an SM951 for large file projects and scratch drive. That's how to upgrade and use the cMP in a practical way without making false speed claims or forum bragging rights as a minority of people are doing. Those same people can't even post screenshots or real world examples of how they are using the tech. Just Blackmagic benchmarks that mean nothing if you're not a video professional.
 
Lauwie: this is very exciting, I keep my fingers crossed.
A good read here: http://www.win-raid.com/t871f13-Discussion-NVMe-BIOS-Modules-and-NVMe-Support.html
There's an interesting statement about page 16 (IIRC): NVMe support in BIOS isn't necessary when SSD has its own bootROM. No one has tested this on a Mac, but looks promising.

People: don't let the thread get derailed by pointless arguments (you know who I'm talking about).
All off-topics post should be reported, let's focus on things which could help the OP.

sheep, that thread you linked very specifically states it "is possible at all to get an NVMe supporting PCIe connected SSD bootable with other Intel chipset systems from 6-Series up". I should note that cMP uses Intel X58 chipset, which is not "6-Series up"… it's 5-series…

There is probably a good reason why Intel does not recommend or support NVMe with their older chipsets. Why would they want to artificially limit the potential sales of the 750 line otherwise? If it cannot keep up then what would happen? Could it drop packets? Could it limit the performance? Could it actually overheat the chipset on the mono? I think these are valid questions that need answering. Perhaps e-mailing Intel support directly and asking them to explain it for us would be a good idea? Does anyone here know anyone at Intel they could ask personally? I have some contacts there but they're not in that division.

I don't mean to be a debbie downer here; I want it to work as much as any of you! But the more threads I read about this, the more and more it sounds like the Mac Pro's X58 chipset might not be able to handle this even if the firmware is properly modded.

I read somewhere that the X58 is only EFI, but not UEFI. I don't know if there's a difference, but one of the threads on this subject indicated the X58 cannot support NVMe due to not being UEFI-compliant. Maybe they were not talking about Macs?
 
Maybe NVMe won't work on the older chipset. Maybe it will work, but with problems. Maybe it will work perfectly. There's only one way to know for sure, and that's by trying it.

We were told that we should only use Apple RAM.
We were told that TRIM is only possible on Apple SSDs.
We were told that we can only use Apple video cards.
We were told that old "EFI 1.1" Macs can't install Windows EFI.
We were told that 4,1 Mac Pros only work with Nehalem CPUs and 1066 RAM.
We were told that 32-bit Mac Pros can't run anything newer than Lion.
We were told that Handoff and Continuity only work on new Macs.

My personal thanks go to those who find out what it is that we truly can and cannot do, by spending their time trying to do what they are told is difficult, impractical, or impossible.

Obviously not every thing will pan out. But so much has panned out already that your collective efforts have really added to the Mac community.

So maybe nothing will come of this particular experiment, but regardless, thanks for trying. If you make this work, then thank you for adding capability to the Mac Community. If it doesn't work, then thanks for adding knowledge to the Mac Community.
 
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Maybe NVMe won't work on the older chipset. Maybe it will work, but with problems. Maybe it will work perfectly. There's only one way to know for sure, and that's by trying it.

We were told that we should only use Apple RAM.
We were told that TRIM is only possible on Apple SSDs.
We were told that we can only use Apple video cards.
We were told that old "EFI 1.1" Macs can't install Windows EFI.
We were told that 4,1 Mac Pros only work with Nehalem CPUs and 1066 RAM.
We were told that 32-bit Mac Pros can't run anything newer than Lion.
We were told that Handoff and Continuity only work on new Macs.

My personal thanks go to those who find out what it is that we truly can and cannot do, by spending their time trying to do what they are told is difficult, impractical, or impossible.

Obviously not every thing will pan out. But so much has panned out already that your collective efforts have really added to the Mac community. So maybe nothing will come of this particular experiment, but regardless, thanks for trying. If you make this work, then thank you for adding capability to the Mac Community. If it doesn't work, then thanks for adding knowledge to the Mac Community.

There have definitely been some very justifiable mods and unjustified moves by Apple to prevent upgrades. The 4.1>5.1 mod is an obvious example, but that is one we can say is safe because the x58 chipset is supposed to support Westmere.
 
Frankly I'm more interested in OP's side project (FL1100 support directly in the firmware) as that would enable bootable USB 3.0 devices. This is a tangible benefit with obvious speed gains. Several people in the USB 3.0 thread have been disappointed that adding a PCIe card doesn't do this.

Some posters have compromised by adding a combo USB 3.0/ESATA card to use the ESATA side for booting, but that has obvious limitations. You have far less choices for drive enclosures. An ESATA drive is not as easily moved around among computers, for example my Mac Mini. And ESATA obviously isn't going to support things like a fast, small, bootable USB 3.0 thumb stick.
 
Frankly I'm more interested in OP's side project (FL1100 support directly in the firmware) as that would enable bootable USB 3.0 devices.
If the OP can show me how he reassembles the scap and fd files with the correct checksums so that they pass all the self-checking as the EFI loads, I can show him how to add and remove different EFI volumes from other machines' firmware. He just needs to explain what tools he's using and what steps he's taking.

Edit: I'm assuming he used IDA Pro with EFI plugins to disassemble the firmware and identify where the NVMe code was. Adding native NTFS and support for other disk formats, and upgrading to the latest USB spec and microcode update should be trivial compared to what he's trying to do - reassembling a working EFI was the stumbling block, which he seems to have overcome.
 
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