Officially giving up on the Mac Mini 2018 + 4K monitor dream

[Stephen.R]

Default for monitor, which for the Samsung display, was automatically putting it at the 'Larger Text' setting, equivalent to 1080p.

Are you sure? At 4K I see "Larger text" is an under-scaled resolution (1504x846), the 1080p setting is one to the right of that.

I'd check that - I see some lag in responsiveness if not using the 'default' (looks like 1080p) with two 4K's, but no lag at all when they're both set to 1080p.

 

[ajaan]

Are you sure? At 4K I see "Larger text" is an under-scaled resolution (1504x846), the 1080p setting is one to the right of that.

I'd check that - I see some lag in responsiveness if not using the 'default' (looks like 1080p) with two 4K's, but no lag at all when they're both set to 1080p.

I just checked gain to make sure, on the Samsung 4K I have the default resolution is 'larger text', which is listed as 1920 x 1080. It's the setting on the extreme left.

The setting to the right of that 2560 x 1440.

I'm almost getting the sense from this thread that settings seem different for different people, some are having no issues with 4K or even 2x 4K monitors, while others are having slow downs with one 4K monitor, despite loads of RAM. It's almost worth compiling a list of monitors that are functioning great. Sure would help with not having to keep trialing and returning via Amazon.

 

[Stephen.R]

I just checked gain to make sure, on the Samsung 4K I have the default resolution is 'larger text', which is listed as 1920 x 1080. It's the setting on the extreme left.

Possibly due to the physical size.

But still - running 2 at 1080p (and thus 'native @2x' scaling) should be smooth on 32GB of RAM. What CPU do you have? I remember the i3 and i5 are slightly slower clocked iGPU compared to the i7..

I'm almost getting the sense from this thread that settings seem different for different people

I'd guess that the listed resolutions in the 'simple' chooser adapt based on the physical size of the display.

It's almost worth compiling a list of monitors that are functioning great.

Definitely some subjectiveness to be considered too - on identical hardware the task at hand may cause varying performance - I'm mostly looking at (and writing) text all day, or sometimes playing back 1080p video, but nothing like video/photo editing etc.

But for what it's worth, my setup is i7/64GB, 2x Dell P2415Q via DP. Everything I do is smooth at "Looks like 1920x1080".

 

[ajaan]

Possibly due to the physical size.

But still - running 2 at 1080p (and thus 'native @2x' scaling) should be smooth on 32GB of RAM. What CPU do you have? I

I'm mostly looking at (and writing) text all day, or sometimes playing back 1080p video, but nothing like video/photo editing etc.

But for what it's worth, my setup is i7/64GB, 2x Dell P2415Q via DP. Everything I do is smooth at "Looks like 1920x1080".

I have the i3. Processor is never stressed, barely goes above 10% except for the briefest of moments.

Our work patterns are similar, perhaps I'll take a look at the Dell, although I fear the glare will upset my eyes.

 

[Stephen.R]

I fear the glare will upset my eyes

The P2415Q at least, is matte. I can't comment on more modern Dell displays (this model is getting on in years now, and yet they don't release an updated model with equivalent size/resolution)

I have the i3.

I can't find a reference to it now, but I believe the Intel 630 UHD is slightly lower clocked on the i3 and i5. I wouldn't have thought it was enough to affect this type of thing, but maybe.

 

[klezmer41]

I'm currently using a Dell U2718q (27" 4k) next to a Dell U2415 (24" 1920x1200). I'm a designer so I wanted to try the 1px line test on both monitors.

Zoomed in, the 1px line can take up an inch of height, but zoomed out on both monitors it looks fine to me. I know it's a 1px line. On the 24" I can see the pixels... but I like the crispness of the 27" and not being able to see the pixels.

But actually, I'd probably rather prefer to have 2 of the same monitor, and I like the size of the 24". The only thing is I don't really like the design of the 24" 4k monitors that are currently available...

 

[WC7]

I gave up on the 4k idea at the beginning mostly because of the cost. I'm just using the cheapest i3 Mini with a 24 inch 1080p monitor. My eyes have adjusted (but not really into serious pixel eye busting work). I do 'lite' office work using the installed Mac apps, plus a little Xcode work. My cost for the monitor was $97. And the refurbished Mini was $679. All that is before tax. I am really happy with my 'basic' set-up. Already had the older Apple keyboard and mouse.

 

[Shedlock2000]

Ok, well the first thing to test, would be trying your iMac's built-in 4K display at a "scaled" resolution. The "2304x1296" I mentioned earlier is 120% of the "native" retina for my 4K's, so to simulate the same amount of "scaling" on your iMac you'd need to set it to something like 2457x1382 - it's possible that exact figure isn't a provided option but there should be something close. Look in System Preferences > Displays > click "Scaled" and see what each entry says under the little simulated display (on the left) when you over over it. I've attached a screenshot to demonstrate where it shows this info.

View attachment 837500

Thanks -- that's very helpful. So you're saying that my dGPU will help with the scaling and thus avoid some of the issues that the Mac Mini crowd are having? Perfect. I'll see if I can pick up a Dell cheaply somewhere.

Thanks for your guidance and explanations.

 

[Stephen.R]

So you're saying that my dGPU will help with the scaling and thus avoid some of the issues that the Mac Mini crowd are having?

Definitely - beyond silly stuff like trying to run 4K displays with minimum system ram, the "solution" for pretty much any graphics/display issue with a 2018 Mini is to buy an eGPU, which is a desktop GPU in an external case, connected via Thunderbolt.

Your iMac I believe uses a "mobile" class GPU (i.e. like what's in the MacBook Pros) but it's still much more powerful than the the iGPU in the mini.

I'll see if I can pick up a Dell cheaply somewhere.

Given the range's age I'd imagine somewhere probably has them refurbished, which should drop the price a little.
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Thanks for your guidance and explanations.

No worries, I hope you find something that works for what you want!

 

[Neodym]

I'm almost getting the sense from this thread that settings seem different for different people, some are having no issues with 4K or even 2x 4K monitors, while others are having slow downs with one 4K monitor, despite loads of RAM. It's almost worth compiling a list of monitors that are functioning great.

Knowing the monitor used may indeed be helpful: If the monitor in question uses the MST protocol to drive its 4K “panel” that might explain the problems.

MST was originally invented as part of DP1.2 to support driving multiple monitors as daisy chain.

When 4k was new and the panels expensive, some clever guy came up with the idea of putting two panels in one chassis and use the MST technique to drive it as if it was one big 4K panel.

With this setup, the picture is split into two “tiles”, which will be sent sequentially over the monitor connection and then be stitched together to the full picture inside the monitor. This can lead to problems with scaled resolutions, especially those that are not clean multiples, as more calculating power is needed for the latter.

With SST, one complete picture is sent over to the monitor, thus no need for splitting and stitching.

Some monitors offer menu settings to support MST/SST (or DP 1.1/1.2 respectively) - the already mentioned Dell P2415Q for example. Having the menu set to the wrong option could also cause troubles.

 

[Zdigital2015]

Definitely - beyond silly stuff like trying to run 4K displays with minimum system ram, the "solution" for pretty much any graphics/display issue with a 2018 Mini is to buy an eGPU, which is a desktop GPU in an external case, connected via Thunderbolt.

Your iMac I believe uses a "mobile" class GPU (i.e. like what's in the MacBook Pros) but it's still much more powerful than the the iGPU in the mini.


Given the range's age I'd imagine somewhere probably has them refurbished, which should drop the price a little.
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No worries, I hope you find something that works for what you want!

I have a Dell P2415Q and used it extensively while hooked up to my previous work 2015 loaded 15" MacBook Pro and my 2015 15" MacBook Pro with just the Iris Pro 5200. I found that 2560x1440 was too small for me to read at a decent distance and that the 1920X1080@2x was simply too big to be useful, even if it was crystal clear. I settled on the 2304x1296 and that was the best compromise for me. I still have the P2415Q, but I am currently using a BenQ SW271 27" display. It too is matte, and works quite well.

You can still order the P2415Q directly from Dell for $429.99 or from Amazon.com for $353.00.

Dell: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/accessories/apd/210-agnk
Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/Dell-Monit...s=Dell+P2415Q&qid=1559322141&s=gateway&sr=8-2

The downside it that they will use both Thunderbolt ports, as I was never able to get MST working to daisy chain my two P2715Q monitors at work.

 

[Neodym]

The downside it that they will use both Thunderbolt ports, as I was never able to get MST working to daisy chain my two P2715Q monitors at work.

I have an LG UW monitor daisy-chained behind a P2415Q.

1. Make sure your computer/GPU supports DP1.2 (e.g. the HD4000 in the 2012 mini does not).
2. Set both displays to 30Hz(!) in the monitor settings on your computer.
3. Set the first monitor in the daisy-chain to “MST Primary” and the second monitor to “MST Secondary” (Monitor menu “Display” -> “MST”). There is also a hotkey for this setting (See this Dell Support document for details).
4. If need be, power cycle both monitors for 15s (had to do on mine).

I’m not sure if it needs to be exactly 30Hz or if 29Hz would do as well (can’t check, as I’m far away from my setup currently), but seem to remember that having 29Hz on the LG caused problems.

You may still want to stay with having both TB ports used, though, as daisy-chaining only allows for 30Hz on those monitors, which is a bit on the sluggish side, depending on the amount of mouse action / general movement happening on screen.

 

[Stephen.R]

The downside it that they will use both Thunderbolt ports, as I was never able to get MST working to daisy chain my two P2715Q monitors at work.

I use an OWC TB3 to dual DP adapter for this, it works great.

 

[Zdigital2015]

I have an LG UW monitor daisy-chained behind a P2415Q.

1. Make sure your computer/GPU supports DP1.2 (e.g. the HD4000 in the 2012 mini does not).
2. Set both displays to 30Hz(!) in the monitor settings on your computer.
3. Set the first monitor in the daisy-chain to “MST Primary” and the second monitor to “MST Secondary” (Monitor menu “Display” -> “MST”). There is also a hotkey for this setting (See this Dell Support document for details).
4. If need be, power cycle both monitors for 15s (had to do on mine).

I’m not sure if it needs to be exactly 30Hz or if 29Hz would do as well (can’t check, as I’m far away from my setup currently), but seem to remember that having 29Hz on the LG caused problems.

You may still want to stay with having both TB ports used, though, as daisy-chaining only allows for 30Hz on those monitors, which is a bit on the sluggish side, depending on the amount of mouse action / general movement happening on screen.

Thanks for the information. I only have the P2415Q now, along with the BenQ...I sure wouldn't mind another Dell, however, I probably won't daisy chain any of the displays at this point.

I had originally purchased the P2415Q to be a companion for my 2013 27" iMac when it used to be on listed as supported here - https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206587 and with a 60Hz refresh rate, no less. However, that was a complete no go and Apple eventually revised the support document. Not sure who thought TB1 could handle 4K@60Hz, but it is what it is.

I repurposed it for my work 15" MacBook Pro as I began working at home and it did marvelously (@60Hz even).

At work, I used an El Gato TB2 Dock for one display and the TB2 port directly on the MacBook Pro to drive the dual P2715Qs, which ended up working out great.

I do wonder if this thread - https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/how-to-increase-vram-for-hd3000-graphics.1766384/ - regarding increasing RAM allocated to the Intel HD 3000 holds any clues for increasing the amount of RAM that can be allocated to the UHD630, or if that is even a thing at this point. I don't have a 2018 mini yet to even know if that is possible or how much is allocated to the iGPU. The ARK says up to 64GB for the max video memory - https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...8700b-processor-12m-cache-up-to-4-60-ghz.html - I do wonder if there is a way to increase the allocation and if that would be helpful to those with a 4K display. Just my 2¢.

 

[Neodym]

Thanks for the information. I only have the P2415Q now, along with the BenQ...I sure wouldn't mind another Dell, however, I probably won't daisy chain any of the displays at this point.

Just for clarification: Daisy-chaining monitors via DP1.2 is (or at least should be) brand-agnostic, i.e. you could chain e.g. an LG behind a Dell (as I do).

I do wonder if there is a way to increase the allocation and if that would be helpful to those with a 4K display. Just my 2¢.

No idea how much VRAM is allocated on the 2018 minis, but I would expect that Apple learned from the 2011 mini and did better here. Besides, as said above, I think it is rather connected to the MST/SST topic.

 

[Cruciarius]

So I see people mentioning low RAM + 4K or higher = laggy UI. I'm seeing people recommend 16GB+ RAM if going with 4K, but also to go with 24-inch monitors. Currently I'm using an iMac, so 27-inch 5K. I want to upgrade to the Mac Mini & already know I'll be going with 32GB RAM, but I'm wanting a 27-inch or more monitor at least 4K... 2 of them. Monitor recommendations?

What I do with my Mac is some Photoshop & Clip Studio (drawing app) work. I also watch a lot of Twitch streams. So I don't want anything curved (bad from an artistic perspective). I don't really game at all on my Mac, but if I do, I'll add an eGPU later.

 

[tomekwsrod]

If you know any good (not current Dell which has many issues and flickers) and reasonably priced (no NEC or Eizo) monitors 30-inch with 16:10 ratio and native res of 2560x1600 I would like to hear about it. I'd like to buy one. Else it seems I am stuck with my 2012 Dell U2412M :-|

 

[Stephen.R]

I'm wanting a 27-inch or more monitor at least 4K... 2 of them. Monitor recommendations?

Unless. you're happy with either 1:1 ratio (i.e. the native 4K resolution, so stuff is tiny on screen) or "looks like 1080p", you're going to have lag without an eGPU.

The mini can drive multiple 4K displays in the default scaling mode ("looks like 1080p") because it's an "efficient" straight 1:2 (aka @2x) rendering. If you want to use e.g. "looks like 1440p" (which is what the iMac 5K defaults to, i believe?) that's going to be too much on two screens for the iGPU, and no amount of memory helps (I have 64GB and can't set my 2 24" 4Ks above "lools like 1080p" without some issues. The higher the "looks like" resolution, the worse the issues are.

 

[Cruciarius]

Unless. you're happy with either 1:1 ratio (i.e. the native 4K resolution, so stuff is tiny on screen) or "looks like 1080p", you're going to have lag without an eGPU.

The mini can drive multiple 4K displays in the default scaling mode ("looks like 1080p") because it's an "efficient" straight 1:2 (aka @2x) rendering. If you want to use e.g. "looks like 1440p" (which is what the iMac 5K defaults to, i believe?) that's going to be too much on two screens for the iGPU, and no amount of memory helps (I have 64GB and can't set my 2 24" 4Ks above "lools like 1080p" without some issues. The higher the "looks like" resolution, the worse the issues are.

Ok, so if I get an eGPU (likely the Radeon Vega 64), I could do the setup I want? Is the LG 27UD88-W good? It's 27-inch though, which I see others saying 27-inch 4K isn't great.

 

[Neodym]

I see others saying 27-inch 4K isn't great.

Depends on your preference and vision. 2560x1440 has been “standard” res on 27” for many years. My vision is not perfect anymore, but I can work okayish with 4k@24”, so 4k@27” should be pretty okay (esp. with macOS doing a good job in scaling the UI). If need be, you drive it as “looks like 2560x1440” and it should be perfectly fine.

 

[Stephen.R]

Ok, so if I get an eGPU (likely the Radeon Vega 64), I could do the setup I want? Is the LG 27UD88-W good? It's 27-inch though, which I see others saying 27-inch 4K isn't great.

Yes, with some caveats. If you use FileVault, you need to be able to enter a password before the eGPU activates. I havent used it personally (havent got my eGPU yet) but if you have a display that has multiple inputs, you can run e.g. Mac Mini's native HDMI port to one display, and then from the eGPU to both, so if you need to reboot/cold boot you switch the first display to the HDMI port, login, and then switch back to e.g. the DisplayPort out (or whatever it uses) from the eGPU.

I can't comment on that specific display.

4k on 27" means lower PPI, and IMO it means it's impractical to use the "default" scaling in macOS.

 

[Cruciarius]

Yes, with some caveats. If you use FileVault, you need to be able to enter a password before the eGPU activates. I havent used it personally (havent got my eGPU yet) but if you have a display that has multiple inputs, you can run e.g. Mac Mini's native HDMI port to one display, and then from the eGPU to both, so if you need to reboot/cold boot you switch the first display to the HDMI port, login, and then switch back to e.g. the DisplayPort out (or whatever it uses) from the eGPU.

I can't comment on that specific display.

4k on 27" means lower PPI, and IMO it means it's impractical to use the "default" scaling in macOS.

I'm fine with inputting my password. That's how my iMac is setup, since I'm paranoid when not home.

Will my Apple Watch be able to unlock the Mac Mini though, if I use an eGPU?

The swapping of what port the monitor is plugged into for unlocking sounds like it would quickly become a pain. I don't want to deal with that.

 

[Stephen.R]

I'm fine with inputting my password. That's how my iMac is setup, since I'm paranoid when not home.

The key thing there though, is that you need to switch to a display connected via the iGPU when it first boots - the eGPU connected screens will be blank at that point.

Will my Apple Watch be able to unlock the Mac Mini though, if I use an eGPU?

Yes, the issue is just that the eGPU doesnt activate/put out a signal before FileVault has been unlocked, so you cant see anything on screens not attached to the 'built in' GPU.

The swapping of what port the monitor is plugged into for unlocking sounds like it would quickly become a pain. I don't want to deal with that.

The recommended solution is a monitor with DP + HDMI input, and you use the display's built-in input switcher to switch to the HDMI input (which you connect "permanently" to the Mini's HDMI port) rather than actually un-plugging things each time you reboot.

 

[baddj]

Reading this has me a little confused

I’m looking at the base mini but upgrade the CPU to the i7 will it drive a 32” 1440p ultra wide without lag. Atm my 2016 nTB MacBook Pro runs it fine but looking at getting the mini for a little more CPU grunt while at home.

 

[Neodym]

Reading this has me a little confused

I’m looking at the base mini but upgrade the CPU to the i7 will it drive a 32” 1440p ultra wide without lag.

The 2012 mini (i7@2.3) runs a 34” display (3440x1440) just fine @50Hz w/o lag (even with a second monitor running @FullHD via HDMI connected in parallel), so the 2018 mini should be able to do the same @60Hz and much more.