Oracle sues Google over Android

[darkplanets]

If you think Oracle cares about improving things you're crazy.

Yeah, that's what I was implying; my impression is that Oracle likes to sit on piles of code and license them out, without great improvement.

Fact is. If Google pulled a Microsoft with Java they are going to lose. Hands down.

Sounds like they did, I mean if Sun approached them earlier about a JVM license and asked them not to fragment the language and Google told them to take a hike... sounds exactly like what MS did, especially since Google developed their own JVM. Oracle will burn them for this; Sun was a lot nicer and simply didn't want the fragmentation, but Oracle just wants the cash.

 

[VenusianSky]

Sounds like they did, I mean if Sun approached them earlier about a JVM license and asked them not to fragment the language and Google told them to take a hike... sounds exactly like what MS did, especially since Google developed their own JVM. Oracle will burn them for this; Sun was a lot nicer and simply didn't want the fragmentation, but Oracle just wants the cash.

As long as Google has a few billion to throw off to Oracle, like MS did with Sun, they will be fine.

 

[huntercr]

This will work out well for Apple

Let the infighting begin.

 

[darkplanets]

As long as Google has a few billion to throw off to Oracle, like MS did with Sun, they will be fine.

Since they do, we'll likely see Oracle leaving, very happily, with Google pursuing new routes, or agreeing to licensing. My question to all you programmers out there is what could they do without the JVM license? I mean they *could* develop their own "look-alike" like .NET was for MS, and its not like MS is going to license out .NET; does that mean complete abandonment of Java support in favor of a new language?

 

[hwhalers]

If Oracle just wants money, I'm sure Google would be more than willing to throw a few more billion into the fire. After all, how much have they pushed into the mobile sphere from their actual business (advertising and selling demo data), never expecting to get a cent back directly?

If Oracle's out for blood, however, this could be a very entertaining seventeen years .

If I were a handset manufacturer trying to decide whether to start developing a product with Android, or starting it with WP7, I'd have very serious pause at the moment.

 

[reden]

Keep trollin'

Woah really? Trollin? hahahahah.

 

[Bytor65]

As long as Google has a few billion to throw off to Oracle, like MS did with Sun, they will be fine.

The argument with MS is likely the same as here. Google is fragmenting the write once, run anywhere standard. MS not only paid cash, but they also stopped fragmenting the standard.

Google has made so many changes that it isn't a simple matter to agree to those term now, which is why we are seeing this in court.

 

[parapup]

Since they do, we'll likely see Oracle leaving, very happily, with Google pursuing new routes, or agreeing to licensing. My question to all you programmers out there is what could they do without the JVM license? I mean they *could* develop their own "look-alike" like .NET was for MS, and its not like MS is going to license out .NET; does that mean complete abandonment of Java support in favor of a new language?

This link, while old is very useful.

Google does not claim that Android is Java compatible. So they don't need a JVM License. That was the clever thing they did. The problem that Oracle has with Google is that of patents - IP infringement. For instance the Java Virtual Machine implements Protection Domains which is patented. Oracle claims that Android's Dalvik VM infringes on that.

So Google has two choices - prove that Dalvik implements it differently enough to not infringe OR remove the code in question and redo it in a different way. Either way it should not be a big deal for this particular patent.

I have not checked the other patents yet. Should be interesting to see what other infringements they are claiming.

 

[yg17]

Also to all the Java haters, is there something really wrong with it? I mean really, what's so bad about a cross platform language; in fact I see it as a positive, and something we should work more towards, not less. I'm not a programmer but I imagine writing for one instance (running on JVM) is much nicer than writing platform specific programs.

Java sucks for desktop applications, like applets and whatnot because of performance issues. But it works quite well for server side applications. I'm a Java developer at my job and we use it for some of our major customer-facing and internal systems with no problems at all.

 

[whatever]

I wonder how IBM views this. Oracle locking down Java cannot be a good thing. Practically all of IBM's software is written in Java. If Oracle intends to patent troll the language, its no longer open, no longer something of general interest. IBM must feel exposed that they didn't buy Sun.

IBM pays licensing fees. They understand the power of a patent, mainly because they hold more patents than anyone else in the high tech world. Real patents for real technology.

I hope Google gets burnt bad on this one. They feel like they can do anything they want and don't care about paying fines.

 

[wizard]

I don't believe you, sorry but blanket statements such as these are garbage.

The problem is that if Oracle wins, everybody who uses Java looses....

What is the basis for this statement? Frankly if you are using a language that isnt maintained by a standards body you loose

I teach basic IP law and this is not good. Software patents are a very, very bad thing.

Instead of repeating this worn matra tell us why software patents are bad. Especially in the context of the referenced patents. If you really teach then you ought to have a rational arguement to support your position

I have no love for Google or Oracle but once something like this sets a precedence its very bad..

What, that getting caught is bad?

 

[Bytor65]

This link, while old is very useful.

Google does not claim that Android is Java compatible. So they don't need a JVM License. That was the clever thing they did. The problem that Oracle has with Google is that of patents - IP infringement. For instance the Java Virtual Machine implements Protection Domains which is patented. Oracle claims that Android's Dalvik VM infringes on that.

Thanks for the link. It is looking more and more like Google is the bad guy here, trying to subvert Java for it's own use and avoid licensing through technicalities.

So while I am no Fan of Oracle, I hope they win this one. This fight started long before Oracle entered the picture.

 

[CFreymarc]

Damn, I had no idea that Oracle owned Sun Microsystems, and therefore Java!

So is their gripe that Google merely used java?

Is this just patent trolling?

My prediction, Oracle takes over Android as part of the settlement. Google writes it off and continues with what they do best, ads in search engines.

 

[darkplanets]

This link, while old is very useful.

To quote that source for those who are lazy...

But Android’s programs are written in Java, using Java-oriented IDEs (it also comes with an Eclipse plugin)… it just doesn’t compile the java code into java bytecode but (ops, Sun didn’t see this one coming) into Dalvik bytecode.

So, Android uses the syntax of the Java platform (the Java “language”, if you wish, which is enough to make java programmers feel at home and IDEs to support the editing smoothly) and the java SE class library but not the Java bytecode or the Java virtual machine to execute it on the phone (and, note, Android’s implementation of the Java SE class library is, indeed, Apache Harmony’s!)

The trick is that Google doesn’t claim that Android is a Java platform, although it can run some programs written with the Java language and against some derived version of the Java class library. Sun could prevent this if they had a patent on the standard class library, but they don’t and, even if they did, I strongly doubt it would be enforceable since Android doesn’t claim to be compatible (and in fact, could very well claim that their subset/superset is an innovation on the existing patent and challenge Sun’s position).

Yeah... Google's going to get burned IP-wise. Expect IBM and/or MS to jump on the bandwagon, if they have any IP that relates to this via .NET. So it's exactly what we were speculating really; a custom JVM, I just wasn't expecting custom bytecode or Harmony, but I guess that makes sense. I haven't looked at these patents, however since MS lost, and lost hard, I'd venture to say Google's going to do the same, despite their efforts to dodge things otherwise. Oracle's not going into this expecting to lose.

It's kind of ****** how they're essentially fragmenting it though; I realize they want the hooks and all that but if they just licensed the JVM while Sun had it they probably would have been better off... Instead we have custom bytecode (probably infringement) with custom JVM (infringement) with Harmony Library w/ Hooks (Maybe infringements). Awesome Google. And people say MS and Apple are bad... Google seems no better than it's peers.

 

[exabytes18]

I don't like what Oracle has done with Sun.

 

[jamesnajera]

Excellent. Now we can all stop using Java.

Java is fine to use, Google created their own JVM. Google took Java and decided to tweak it to fit their needs and create their own java interpreter. This fragments Java and infringes on Oracle owned patents. From what I read Microsoft did this to Sun and had to pay Sun quite a bit. This could be a serious problem for Google.

 

[Bytor65]

Java is fine to use, Google created their own JVM. Google took Java and decided to tweak it to fit their needs and create their own java interpreter. This fragments Java and infringes on Oracle owned patents. From what I read Microsoft did this to Sun and had to pay Sun quite a bit. This could be a serious problem for Google.

Google thinks their brilliant trick is that they claim their platform isn't a Java Virtual Machine, it is something new called Dalvik. So they don't have to agree to any license agreements.

I remember wondering why Android wasn't compatible with normal Java, now I know. So Google could thumb their nose at Sun(now Oracle).

 

[ranReloaded]

"Write once, sue everyone"

 

[jamesnajera]

Google thinks their brilliant trick is that they claim their platform isn't a Java Virtual Machine, it is something new called Dalvik. So they don't have to agree to any license agreements.

I remember wondering why Android wasn't compatible with normal Java, now I know. So Google could thumb their nose at Sun(now Oracle).

What is really lame is that Google could have probably licensed it back when Java was still owned by Sun, they were greedy I guess.

Google is dropping the ball a lot lately, first the net neutrality crap and now this.

 

[Salacion]

Is it just me, or does this feel like karma?

 

[hooch]

I absolutely hate Oracle! We used Sun servers for both sparc and Intel at my company for a while. Excellent designed servers. We had quotes for servers which we were working on for a huge project and it took time to iron out the specifics. It took about a month to figure it out exactly. The final quote came at a time of price restructuring. The cost for the 9 servers cost additional $80,000 than the original. The major reason, support costs! Dell got our business (for linux/intel servers).

I worry about Solaris, MySql, Java, etc. They are all great products and who knows what is going to happen with them. Customers are running away. The Sun on-site tech who always came with replacement parts for the 5 years I've worked here now works for Netapp. I was shocked when he suddenly came with the Netapp engineer to install a shelf. I asked him what happened? He says that his calls went from 20 calls a week to 5 calls a week. It's a shame.

Java is a great product by the way.

 

[parapup]

To quote that source for those who are lazy...


Yeah... Google's going to get burned IP-wise. Expect IBM and/or MS to jump on the bandwagon, if they have any IP that relates to this via .NET. So it's exactly what we were speculating really; a custom JVM, I just wasn't expecting custom bytecode or Harmony, but I guess that makes sense. I haven't looked at these patents, however since MS lost, and lost hard, I'd venture to say Google's going to do the same, despite their efforts to dodge things otherwise. Oracle's not going into this expecting to lose.

It's kind of ****** how they're essentially fragmenting it though; I realize they want the hooks and all that but if they just licensed the JVM while Sun had it they probably would have been better off... Instead we have custom bytecode (probably infringement) with custom JVM (infringement) with Harmony Library w/ Hooks (Maybe infringements). Awesome Google. And people say MS and Apple are bad... Google seems no better than it's peers.

It's late here - but none of that makes any sense. Android is NOT Java. So there is no question of a JVM and fragmentation. It uses standard Java language features even if their implementation underneath is not a standard JVM. If they had licensed a JVM they would end up with J2ME - no one bought that crap. (Or desktop java for that matter.)

Not sure how that makes Google bad - they just wanted flexibility for their platform without Sun dictating and controlling (JCP). Sounds right to me.

 

[goMac]

If Oracle intends to patent troll the language, its no longer open, no longer something of general interest.

Java was never open. I'm not sure why anyone would think otherwise.

 

[parapup]

What is really lame is that Google could have probably licensed it back when Java was still owned by Sun, they were greedy I guess.

Google is dropping the ball a lot lately, first the net neutrality crap and now this.

Please educate yourself. Google would end up with crap if they licensed Java - it would imply implementing standard JVM for Android - with all the bloat and generic J2ME crap. At the rate they are innovating if they licensed a JVM it would take them decades to get it through JCP. No sane person would ever do that.

 

[hwhalers]

Not sure how that makes Google bad - they just wanted flexibility for their platform without Sun dictating. Sounds right to me.

Google cannot co-opt Sun/Oracle's control of its IP and patents through attempted splintering of standards (or other potentially anticompetitive tactics), no matter how important they think they are. Flexibility for your platform is not your right when you're using someone else's creation. If Google wanted complete flexibility without being encumbered by potential IP problems, they should've paid the rightful owner of the technology or developed their own language and interpreter package from scratch (without violating patents, naturally). It would appear they didn't do that, because they assumed they were too large and frightening for anyone to call them out.

Is J2ME terrible? Most certainly; it is universally derided. But being big, or potentially 'innovative', doesn't make you above the law. Sane people don't steal.