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Oracle sues Google over Android
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They are largely changing things enough so they think they can escape the licensing requirements. They copied anything that they thought they could get away including most of the standard library, not just the language. They copy parts of Harmony which AFAIK has a usage restricted license.
In short they esentially did a clone of Java with changes to the JVM bytecode to claim it isn't a JVM to escape licensing. That is lawyer slimy move and I hope they get appropriately burned for it.
If they want freedom, they can create their own language/libraries, not pull a Embrace, extend, extinguish game.
Regardless, of whether you think Google did it better, they don't have the right to copy other peoples work and take it over.
How do think this would have worked if they Chose C#, copied MONO project, changed the byte code and called it DUO?
I see Microsoft as the big beneficiary of this... Oracle is going to kill Java, and that is a good thing for all things .NET related to M$. Google is in a world of pain, their stock is going nowhere, and all their non core (ie. non search ads) business is just eating up the money they make.
Google wrote Dalvik VM themselves from scratch. They do not claim Android is Java compatible. They are not obligated to use their own language. The standard part - language features are supported as-is on the Dalvik VM - they did not invent their own extensions to the language.
There is no stealing involved here. Only patents.
I am referring toward the IP they are using which was Sun's. On further thought however Sun may not have done this because fragmentation would still have been created. Overall I think Google may really be screwed, Oracle is going to go for blood.
This lawsuit is all about who controls Java. It is exactly the same reason Sun sued Microsoft and won. That settlement was $20 million dollars and more important an agreement from Microsoft that it could not alter Java in an incompatible manner. Sun did not want to lose control of Java to Microsoft.
Since Google isn't an Java licensee, Oracle may be afraid Google will alter Java in an incompatible manner. Which gives Google control over the future of Java that Oracle doesn't want them to have.
Google has several options:
- License Java as a distributor and agree that Oracle controls the future direction Java.
- Prove their implementation is not Java, and therefore they are not in infringement.
- Abandon the current version of Android, and reimplement it another manner.
Since Google isn't an Java licensee, Oracle may be afraid Google will alter Java in an incompatible manner. Which gives Google control over the future of Java that Oracle doesn't want them to have.
Google has several options:
- License Java as a distributor and agree that Oracle controls the future direction Java.
- Prove their implementation is not Java, and therefore they are not in infringement.
- Abandon the current version of Android, and reimplement it another manner.
They can claim anything they want, if they're found to have violated Oracle's patents their claim of writing Dalvik from scratch won't matter. The effect is the same, they're trying to co-opt Oracle's ownership of IP relating to Java by marginalizing their mobile product and not paying for it.
No, but they're obligated to follow the rules.
Infringing on patents isn't stealing?
That is the Google Lawyer defense. That isn't the reality.
Google is wrote a VM that is based of the same standard Java Libraries and the Harmony project.
Basically they just chaged the VM to get around licensing. Now the courts will decide who well that worked out for them.
Google does not claim Android is Java - by choice. So this is not the same as Microsoft fragmenting Java. They just use the standard Java 5 language features as-is to the point that Sun javac can compile it. After that though it's anything but Java.
I meant they are not "stealing" JVM code from Sun/Oracle (unlike what SCO et. al. claimed vs. IBM for e.g.)- about patents who knows, most software patents are full of crap and prior art.
Do you work for Google? You sound like a lobbyist repeating the corporate line.
Yes Google doesn't claim to be Java compatible - a choice driven by an attempt to find a loophole that will let them clone what they want and fork the standard, much to the chagrin of the creators of the standard.
It is pretty clear they are trying to back door there way around the standard to run roughshod over the license holder and taking what they want and forge their own standard based on Suns Java work, devaluing the Sun/Oracle platform.
Ah, okay. Yeah, I don't believe Google can be accused of that. I still think trying to take control of IP from Oracle by brute force is theft, though.
That's a matter of opinion, Oracle (and quite a few other people) seem to think otherwise
.
I sound like a lobbyist to you because you have no understanding of the matter.
What standard are they forking? Do you even understand how Android makes use of Java? They use standard Java language features to the point where it compiles using Sun compiler.
What back door? They wrote their own software that takes standard Java class files, turn it into something that then runs on their own implementation of the Dalvik VM.
You are talking as if they changed Java language, took the Sun JVM code, modified it to run the new Java language and went on distributing to people saying this is new forked Java, please use it. Truth is far from it.
It's late here too
No, android is not Java, but does "support" Java. Of course they said they don't, explicitly, in order to avoid the scorn of Oracle, but I would call Harmony Java, and not its own, separate entity. Harmony is basically the same libraries, as you said, only its an Apache license with limited use, something that has to be looked at. While yes, they avoided a JVM by making their own (and their own bytecode), and while yes, it technically doesn't fragment the community since you cant run vanilla java due to minor library changes, it does, in fact, pose a fragmenting pattern in the community, just like MS did back then. You created a new java-like system, that's very similar in implementation, and even more similar library-wise; how does that not fragment the community? Now they have to code either for 1) Android or 2) Java, and furthermore, debug is now not a unified process. If android's implementation was exponentially different, then maybe, but since it uses Harmony it's close enough to create future fragmentations by picking one over the other.
As for the licensing; I'm not quite sure who got what in the end for MS's case, but I'm sure Google could have secured a nice deal for an agreement similar to Apple or MS. I understand the flexibility and hooks and what not, but what makes it bad is that in doing so they broke IP and possibly created future fragmentation for Java.
Ah, okay. Yeah, I don't believe Google can be accused of that. I still think trying to take control of IP from Oracle by brute force is theft, though.
That's a matter of opinion, Oracle (and quite a few other people) seem to think otherwise
A idea for a solution was proposed. The costs for defending patents should be on the government organizations that approves the patent. And in that way it should be easier for them to motivate costs for do a real examine of the applicants.
You sound like a lobbyist/lawer because you think as long as you find a loophole to subvert licensing it is perfectly OK, to do so.
Think about what you are describing.
Compile Java with Sun compiler to sun class files, run on JVM on mobile, you must license this.
Google ads another layer to convert that Sun Class file to their own new bytecode and now you can escape licensing. This is just a slimy loophole.
If I was sitting on a Jury for this, it is pretty transparent that Google is just looking to exploit a loophole to avoid licensing.
QFT. Any action Larry Ellison takes is to benefit Oracle. Period. Larry and Oracle bought Sun because they saw a value in the deal, no more and no less.
Larry is buddies with Steve Jobs because they are equals, not because they need to do favors for each other.
It's late here too
No, android is not Java, but does "support" Java. Of course they said they don't, explicitly, in order to avoid the scorn of Oracle, but I would call Harmony Java, and not its own, separate entity. Harmony is basically the same libraries, as you said, only its an Apache license with limited use, something that has to be looked at. While yes, they avoided a JVM by making their own (and their own bytecode), and while yes, it technically doesn't fragment the community since you cant run vanilla java due to minor library changes, it does, in fact, pose a fragmenting pattern in the community, just like MS did back then. You created a new java-like system, that's very similar in implementation, and even more similar library-wise; how does that not fragment the community? Now they have to code either for 1) Android or 2) Java, and furthermore, debug is now not a unified process. If android's implementation was exponentially different, then maybe, but since it uses Harmony it's close enough to create future fragmentations by picking one over the other.
As for the licensing; I'm not quite sure who got what in the end for MS's case, but I'm sure Google could have secured a nice deal for an agreement similar to Apple or MS. I understand the flexibility and hooks and what not, but what makes it bad is that in doing so they broke IP and possibly created future fragmentation for Java.
What you said might be true only if Google claimed Java compatibility. They use standard Java 5 language features - i.e. they are not creating a new language that is a superset or subset of Java. So I don't understand your statement "Now they have to code either for 1) Android or 2) Java" - well duh, Android isn't Java - it just lets you use Java language to write programs to the Android API. Otherwise it wouldn't be Android, it would be J2ME.
And when you say they use Harmony - it's not the VM - it's just the Java SE libraries/API that they use from Harmony. Asking them to play the J2ME API game or provide 100% J2SE compatible implementation on a phone in 2010 is ridiculous.
What do you call it? It certainly wasn't the intention that you could get around JVM licensing by taking compiled Java code and simply converting it to a different bytecode.
People have been converting Java bytecode to native machine code to make it run faster or avoid having to ship a JVM.
Whatever the reason - there is nothing wrong with doing that. Google just wanted to use the standard Java language and tooling that people are familiar with and make the end result run better on a phone.
Plus it's not like Google would have to pay licensing fees / royalties if they went the 100% Java Compatible route and used Sun JVM. Sun licensed Java royalty free and even granted patent rights to users.
