Oracle sues Google over Android

[John.B]

The problem for .Net is that its.. microsoft only, not multi-platform although there is the Mono project but how compatible it is?

Yes, microsoft tried to "embraced and extend Java" which if went unchecked would have fragmented Java.

J++ was the first bastardization of Java. .Net and C# were workarounds that were Java-like enough in their usage but didn't infringe on the Java IP. My guess is that is where Android will eventually need to wind up, their own Java-like environment but free of the actual Java code.

I am not a DB pro, but apparently this is true to some extent. Many companies have been migrating to MS SQL since SQL 2005. MS SQL is much cheaper to license and from what I hear, performs very well compared to Oracle.

We have both SQL Server and Oracle. For high volume systems, the read consistency model that Oracle uses is far more scalable than the SQL Server model where read locks block updates which block other readers which block updates, ad nauseam. There is a reason so many high volume SQL Servers are architected with transactional replication to a separate reporting server.

They bought Java for a huge amount of money and now they tries to kill it.

I realize this doesn't support the "feel good" soundbite, but fragmenting Java is what would kill it and this suit actually defends against fragmentation.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Damn, I had no idea that Oracle owned Sun Microsystems, and therefore Java!

So is their gripe that Google merely used java?

Is this just patent trolling?

You don't understand the term, patent trolling.

Oracle has been a big developer of Java for over a decade and now owing all it's IP, in which it has and continues to produce dozens of products with Java in it will most certainly defend its IP.

A patent troll is an entity that purchases IP for the sole purpose of garnering money through litigation.

Oracle is king in the Enterprise. It will and should defend its entire portfolio. I'd expect nothing less.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

What you said might be true only if Google claimed Java compatibility. They use standard Java 5 language features - i.e. they are not creating a new language that is a superset or subset of Java. So I don't understand your statement "Now they have to code either for 1) Android or 2) Java" - well duh, Android isn't Java - it just lets you use Java language to write programs to the Android API. Otherwise it wouldn't be Android, it would be J2ME.

And when you say they use Harmony - it's not the VM - it's just the Java SE libraries/API that they use from Harmony. Asking them to play the J2ME API game or provide 100% J2SE compatible implementation on a phone in 2010 is ridiculous.

Without the Java Language, upon which the entire Android Frameworks are based, Android would have to be redesigned and implemented, from C++ or other comparable language to Java.

Android is dependent upon Java.

 

[Bytor65]

People have been converting Java bytecode to native machine code to make it run faster or avoid having to ship a JVM.

Whatever the reason - there is nothing wrong with doing that. Google just wanted to use the standard Java language and tooling that people are familiar with and make the end result run better on a phone.

Find one mobile example, that is running Java that didn't license it.

Google is unique in that they think they discovered the trick (what your link calls it) that lets them escape licensing. To me that is dirty pool.

Sun was worried about this from the beginning, it is clear that Google found its trick to say FU to Sun. Sun tried but got nowhere with Google to resolve this and we end up with Oracle finally pulling the trigger on a lawsuit.

Sun may have failed to close the loopholes, but Oracle is right to pursue this with vigor with whatever weapons they have.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Google wrote Dalvik VM themselves from scratch. They do not claim Android is Java compatible. They are not obligated to use their own language. The standard part - language features are supported as-is on the Dalvik VM - they did not invent their own extensions to the language.

There is no stealing involved here. Only patents.

What programming language does one code in to use the Dalvik VM.

IBM wrote their own VM too for Java. They didn't claim it wasn't Java. Seriously. Give it up.


Excerpt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_VM

Unlike most virtual machines and true Java VMs which are stack machines, the Dalvik VM is a register-based architecture.

Like the CISC vs. RISC debate, the relative merits of stack machines vs. register-based approaches is a subject of continual argument.[3] Generally, stack-based machines must use instructions to load data on the stack and manipulate that data, and, thus, require more instructions than register machines to implement the same high level code, but the instructions in a register machine must encode the source and destination registers and, therefore, tend to be larger. This difference is primarily of importance to VM interpreters for whom opcode dispatch tends to be expensive along with other factors similarly relevant to JIT compilation.

A tool called dx is used to convert some (but not all) Java .class files into the .dex format. Multiple classes are included in a single .dex file. Duplicate strings and other constants used in multiple class files are included only once in the .dex output to conserve space. Java bytecode is also converted into an alternate instruction set used by the Dalvik VM. An uncompressed .dex file is typically a few percent smaller in size than a compressed .jar (Java Archive) derived from the same .class files.

Class library

Dalvik does not align to Java SE nor Java ME Class Library profiles[7][8] (e.g., Java ME classes, AWT or Swing are not supported). Instead it uses its own library[9] built on a subset of the Apache Harmony Java implementation.

Apache Harmony

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Harmony

Difficulties to obtain a TCK license from Sun
See also: Technology Compatibility Kit

The Apache Software Foundation sent a letter to Sun Microsystems CEO, Jonathan Schwartz, on April 10, 2007, regarding their inability to acquire an acceptable license for the Java SE 5 Technology Compatibility Kit (TCK), a test kit needed by the project to demonstrate compatibility with the Java SE 5 specification, as required by the Sun specification license for Java SE 5.[4] What makes the license unacceptable for ASF is the fact that it imposes rights restrictions through limits on the "field of use" available to users of Harmony, not compliant with the Java Community Process rules.[5]

Sun answered on a company blog [1][2] that it intended to create an open source implementation of the Java platform under GPL, including the TCK, but that their current priority was to make the Java Platform accessible to the GNU/Linux community under GPL as quickly as possible.

This answer triggered some reactions, either criticizing Sun for not responding "in a sufficiently open manner" to an open letter [3], or rather Apache Software Foundation; some think that ASF acted unwisely to aggressively demand something they could have obtained with more diplomacy from Sun, especially considering the timescale of the opening class library [4] [6].

Since Sun's release of OpenJDK, Sun has released a specific license to allow to run the TCK in the OpenJDK context for any GPL implementation deriving substantially from OpenJDK[7].

Use in Android SDK

Dalvik, the Java Virtual Machine used in Google's Android platform, use a subset of Harmony for the core of its Class Library[8]. However, Dalvik does not align to Java SE nor Java ME Class Library profiles (for example J2ME classes, AWT and Swing are not supported). Instead it uses its own library[9], built on top of a subset of Harmony.

I suspect both Apache and Google will be part of the suits.

Google will lose hard and I suspect Oracle will force Google to comply or scrap their Java implementation and start over with C++ or something else.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Find one mobile example, that is running Java that didn't license it.

Google is unique in that they think they discovered the trick (what your link calls it) that lets them escape licensing. To me that is dirty pool.

Sun was worried about this from the beginning, it is clear that Google found its trick to say FU to Sun. Sun tried but got nowhere with Google to resolve this and we end up with Oracle finally pulling the trigger on a lawsuit.

Sun may have failed to close the loopholes, but Oracle is right to pursue this with vigor with whatever weapons they have.

Oracle has a War Chest and a massive litigation team that will make life completely unbearable for Google.

Schmidt was slimy at Sun, then Novell and especially at Google. Nothing ever changes with the guy.

 

[parapup]

IBM wrote their own VM too for Java. They didn't claim it wasndn't claim it wasn't Java.

I stopped reading after the IBM line.

 

[John.B]

Find one mobile example, that is running Java that didn't license it.

Actually the one hugely successful implementation of this that I know of is Oracle's Java-in-the-database technology where they convert to an intermediate C layer and then compile that on the target database platform. Pretty slick. And fast. I doubt Oracle tried to shaft Sun over JVM licensing fees, though.

Google is unique in that they think they discovered the trick (what your link calls it) that lets them escape licensing. To me that is dirty pool.

Google is full of bright people. Sometimes people are too smart for their own good. I guess we'll find out. Precedent with the Microsoft J++ case leads me to believe that Google isn't going to win this one, and the Android environment is completely dependent on Java code. Google literally can't afford a C&D now, right when they are getting momentum for their Android platform. And Oracle knows that. Whatever you think about the guy, Larry Ellison's timing is impeccable.

Sun may have failed to close the loopholes, but Oracle is right to pursue this with vigor with whatever weapons they have.

But... Sun had a CEO with a ponytail and a blog and a twitter account! How could they go wrong with that?

 

[hwhalers]

Google will lose hard and I suspect Oracle will force Google to comply or scrap their Java implementation and start over with C++ or something else.

My curiosity lies in Oracle's goal. I don't think it sees past its enterprise ecosystem, which would be very bad news for Google. Not like either outcome is at all good for them, or Android for that matter. If Oracle pushes with all of its might, OEMs will start to get rightfully worried. Google might just be desperate enough to rip out everything potentially objectionable and rush to fit replacements to prevent flight.

 

[John.B]

My curiosity lies in Oracle's goal. I don't think it sees past its enterprise ecosystem, which would be very bad news for Google. Not like either outcome is at all good for them, or Android for that matter. If Oracle pushes with all of its might, OEMs will start to get rightfully worried. Google might just be desperate enough to rip out everything potentially objectionable and rush to fit replacements to prevent flight.

Android *IS* Java. How fast could Google get a replacement to the Java language out to the masses?

How long did it take Microsoft to develop C# and .Net?

Is there a tech CEO more shrewd than Larry Ellison?

 

[larrylaffer]

There you have it folks, the awesomeness that was Sun is officially dead! As a former PeopleSoft employee that had his job borked when Oracle took over, I feel the pain.

I think we can safely predict the following:

• Lawsuits over ZFS implementations in Linux and FreeBSD
• VirtualBox will become strictly commercial
• Larry Ellison will grow a killer Hitler mustache

 

[Opstech]

Wow! I wonder if Apple dropped the dime on Google?

 

[larrylaffer]

Oracle has a War Chest and a massive litigation team that will make life completely unbearable for Google.

Schmidt was slimy at Sun, then Novell and especially at Google. Nothing ever changes with the guy.

Your Kool-Aid is showing. How long have you been with the organization?

 

[hwhalers]

Android *IS* Java. How fast could Google get a replacement to the Java language out to the masses?

If Oracle got a C&D, arguably not fast enough to prevent the platform from dying out as a first-tier smartphone OS and killing any confidence in Google as an OS provider. Maybe Google gets out of this endeavor entirely, and sticks to its actual businesses that don't haemmorage money every second of the day ? If they have enough of these adventures into the lands of endless losses, shareholders might not be that forgiving.

 

[larrylaffer]

If Oracle got a C&D, arguably not fast enough to prevent the platform from dying out as a first-tier smartphone OS and killing any confidence in Google as an OS provider.

But this kind of stuff almost never happens. When two companies of this girth get into a legal battle, it almost always ends up with the loser licensing the tech from the winner in arbitration, and it hardly gets talked about within a few days after it happens.

So once again Oracle will increase their income a little bit each year.

They need it, seeing as they're being sued themselves for bilking the US Govt for years.

 

[gnasher729]

Also, as I understand it, isn't the JVM the part that's licensed? That is to say, the part that runs the Java, not java itself? I thought IBM, MS, Apple, etc all had licenses for the JVM, but under Sun's (Now Oracle's) GNU the actual language is open source. Am I wrong here?

I think so. The name Java is trademarked, and the Java language specification is copyrighted. Sun gave anyone a free license to use the trademark and to use the language specification _if they implemented a JVM that was compatible with the Java language specification_. That's why Microsoft had to close down its intentionally not quite compatible JVM. So anyone can write their own JVM if they make it compatible with the Java specification.

Sun's (now Oracle's) JVM can be licensed. I suppose that is not what Google did, so the fact that Sun's JVM can be licensed means nothing if Google's JVM is their own. Just read in another post "Google does not claim that their JVM is Java compatible". If it isn't, then they don't have a license to use the Java name and Java language spec.

 

[hwhalers]

But this kind of stuff almost never happens. When two companies of this girth get into a legal battle, it almost always ends up with the loser licensing the tech from the winner in arbitration

Licensed and compelled to pay, or licensed and compelled to pay and defer to Sun for Java's future path? Those are significantly different outcomes.

 

[firewood]

Android *IS* Java. How fast could Google get a replacement to the Java language out to the masses?

Google could license C# from Microsoft. Microsoft might even throw in the nice new Windows Mobile API that goes with C#, so that Google could quickly get "something" out to the masses.

 

[larrylaffer]

Licensed and compelled to pay, or licensed and compelled to pay and defer to Sun for Java's future path? Those are significantly different outcomes.

Maybe, but do you really think that would happen? I would suspect in the end Google would just pay more to avoid losing control of their platform like that.

Yes Microsoft ended with no options in their Java debacle, but this was "M$" back in their we-have-no-competition-and-everybody-hates-us heyday. Google hasn't reached that point yet, and I think it's pretty clear they never will.

 

[transmaster]

Not Suprised

The lords of Java have defended the Java platform like bear cats. Remember the "Pure Java" campaign. They have always gone after anyone they considered was writing OS specific versions of Java.

 

[hwhalers]

Maybe, but do you really think that would happen? I would suspect in the end Google would just pay more to avoid losing control of their platform like that.

Oracle and Google are both nice, big corporations, that make nice, large amounts of money. Oracle is actually a software company that makes its money selling enterprise software, and Google is an advertising company that insinuated itself into software to better deliver advertising and gather demographic data. There's obviously a number Google won't pay, but would they just cease to develop Android or would they submit to Oracle?

Yes Microsoft ended with no options in their Java debacle, but this was "M$" back in their we-have-no-competition heyday.

Anticompetitive activity is anticompetitive activity.

 

[Benjamins]

Whoever sides with Google on this needs to go back in time and side with Microsoft when they tried to screw Java with J++.

 

[Žalgiris]

I stopped reading after the IBM line.

You should stop writing too. Your trolling compaign is not welcome here.

 

[bugfaceuk]

I was asking if there was merit to this or if it was just patent trolling, not making a statement.

I would think there is merit to this. Although much of Java is now open source, the JVM and the technologies for making it performant are not. As another poster has highlighted, Oracle bought Sun for a reason, and spent some money doing so. If Google has infringed patents, particularly in the areas around the JVM, then Oracle are perfectly within their rights to do this.

I don't think this falls under trolling, but instead protecting their IP. It's important to note that not defending your IP in all cases, can make it harder to defend in specific cases.

 

[neutrino23]

Just a small vent. I used Oracle everyday, all day for about a year. Times I was ready to walk to and put my foot through the server that was hosting my current login.

Count your blessings. At least you're not using SAP.