Oracle sues Google over Android

[goosnarrggh]

I asume iOS uses Java and pays royalties?

No; Apple made a conscious decision to leave Java out of the iPhone.

And even if they had decided to incorporate Java, they could have released a JVM and class libraries which strictly adhered to Sun's (now Oracle's) published specifications, and then they could have obtained the necessary licenses for free.

 

[maflynn]

I see no benefit in Oracle having acquired Sun, they should stick to their databases.

This is why you're not running oracle.

Many of their products rely on java quite heavily. Plus Oracle purchased Sun to add hardware to their offerings, making Oracle's database and middleware products more robust by providing and supporting a close knit integration.

No; Apple made a conscious decision to leave Java out of the iPhone.

True, but apple is dealing with a Nokia lawsuit for allegedly using their cell phone technology in the iPhone. So while they avoided one pitfall, they fell into another.

 

[acidblue]

My insight comes from having to code in Java and spending nights cursing it to hell. Damn language can run as bad as Flash sometimes.

Perhaps you just don't know the language/runtime well? I've been writing java based applications for over 10 years now and the applications that I, and others I have been working with throughout the years, have been serving their respective owners quite well. Applications from: search engines, supply chain management, near real-time concurrent systems with complex user interfaces and large e-commerce sites have all been running fine even when machines were much slower and contained much less ram/disk. The runtime seems to be working fine on billions of smart phones (yes, minus the iPhone), millions of web servers and has millions of developers. Sounds like it has been doing well.

That said, I'm actually just sick of writing Java code. The language itself is becoming antiquated. There is a lot of 'ceremony' to get things done. But, the fact that there are just endless libraries (apache foundation, codehaus etc) makes it hard for me, and the companies I've worked for, to walk away from it.

 

[Plutonius]

WTF.

The big deal about Java was how open it was. But that was when Sun was independent.

This really does suck for the whole industry if Oracle is going to start trying to close down java.

I think the issue is that Google wrote their own version of Java using Oracle's code and then claimed ownership.

 

[dave420]

FYI, Oracle has a LEGAL OBLIGATION to defend its patents...as does ANY patent holder! I am glad to see they are going after Google and protecting the patents that they have recently acquired.

Nope. You are thinking about trademarks. Trademarks have to be defended or they lose the right to the trademark. Companies have the right to selectively enforce patents at any time.

 

[mcmlxix]

Steve Jobs was the photographer for Ellison's number 4 of 4 wedding.

Yeah, I guess they're friends.

I didn't know Steve was a photographer.

 

[goosnarrggh]

I think the issue is that Google wrote their own version of Java using Oracle's code and then claimed ownership.

Oracle is not claiming copyright infringement; this isn't a matter of merely duplicating source code.

They're claiming patent infringement - it's a matter of Android allegedly using algorithms in their own (presumably original) code, which follow the same algorithms that Oracle claims ownership of in their patents.

For example, if I had a patent on the act of incrementing a register's contents, then the two pieces of code, while different for the purposes of copyright, would both be infringing for purposes of patents:

x++;

x = x + 1;

Note that this is a silly example because, given the state of today's prior art, nobody could successfully defend a patent on an algorithm as fundamental as performing basic arithmetic.

 

[ReallyBigFeet]

I know something about this.
Java is owned by Sun.
Apache Software Foundation "ported" Java as Harmony.
Google ported Harmony as Android.

Seems to me Apache Software Foundation is in the middle.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm kinda thinking that Google has more money than Apache. So if I were going to sue someone, I'd sure as hell sue the guy with more money.

 

[InsightsIE]

Imagine if java served google LOL, apple,rim and palm os would be the only remaining competitors.

 

[OldGit]

Software patents are a very, very bad thing.

I hope you don't teach that!It's kinda short sighted.

 

[BornAgainMac]

Google should just pay Oracle for damages and publicly abandon Java saying that it sucks for mobile. They can attack it like Apple did with Flash.

 

[parapup]

You should stop writing too. Your trolling compaign is not welcome here.

Should I start spreading more uninformed fanboi FUD instead? Will that make you happy?

Writing well informed facts seem to be hurting the fanboi agenda a lot lately.

 

[alent1234]

Google should just pay Oracle for damages and publicly abandon Java saying that it sucks for mobile. They can attack it like Apple did with Flash.

unless they want to be like apple and sell one handset they need something like Java. same reason why RIM used it for all their different handsets. you write once and it will run on a variety of hardware

 

[Jalu]

Google should just pay Oracle for damages and publicly abandon Java saying that it sucks for mobile. They can attack it like Apple did with Flash.

That could be a very good idea. Oracle, while making very nice products (really!) are a very nasty company. Kinda reminds me of another big American IT company... Their licensing conditions are horrendous.

 

[Bytor65]

Oracle is not claiming copyright infringement;

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/13/oracle_sues_google/

According to this they are claiming copyright infringement:

"Without consent, authorization, approval, or license, Google knowingly, willingly, and unlawfully copied, prepared, published, and distributed Oracle America's copyrighted work, portions thereof, or derivative works and continues to do so," Oracle attorneys, which include renowned litigator David Boies, wrote. "Google's Android infringes Oracle America's copyrights in Java and Google is not licensed to do so."

 

[John.B]

Wow! I wonder if Apple dropped the dime on Google?

This lawsuit was in the works back before Sun Micro was ever bought out by Oracle.

The difference is that Larry Ellison has the grit and determination to see this through.

 

[coleridge78]

WTF.

The big deal about Java was how open it was. But that was when Sun was independent.

This really does suck for the whole industry if Oracle is going to start trying to close down java.

Java wasn't "open" until long after it had become the de facto standard. That was NOT the "big deal" about Java. At all.

 

[musiciscool]

Oracle better watch their backs....

Oracle better watch their backs, Google knows where they live.... AND provides a detailed satellite image, and Street view of their house; not to mention the stored emails and who knows what else.....

 

[Melrose]

I wouldn't consider this a patent trolling. Oracle spent some pretty decent cash on Sun and as such are entitled to Sun's intellectual property.

This. Of course, I hate Google anyway, but if Oracle owns the rights to a product it doesn't matter how they got them - if by writing it themselves or purchasing it outright - they own it, legally, and have the right (and obligation to shareholders) to protect it.

But of course, Google isn't evil. They'd never do something like that

 

[coleridge78]

Also to all the Java haters, is there something really wrong with it? I mean really, what's so bad about a cross platform language; in fact I see it as a positive, and something we should work more towards, not less. I'm not a programmer but I imagine writing for one instance (running on JVM) is much nicer than writing platform specific programs.

There are many cross-platform languages. Many. Dozens. They are called "interpreted", and these days for 99% of applications they are not worse than Java. "Interpreted" languages are no longer really what their name implies--they're part interpreted, but most make some using of JIT, bytecode, and "virtual machine" techniques that make them run, effectively, in a very similar way to Java. Few of these languages are significantly slower for most average end-user uses than C.

The big problem with Java *used* to be that the virtual machines were all terrible dogs, so the programs were slow and bug-filled (even if the app itself didn't have problems, the VM would victimize it). And they had different bugs, so it was as others have noted a write once, debug everywhere proposition.

Now, that's largely solved, so people have started to notice the other problem--that Java itself is just a stupid, stupid, terribly-designed language. It's a mishmash of every approach under the sun taking the worst from each. This is why there has been an absolute *explosion* in languages that run on the JVM to leverage its benefits, but are not actually Java. E.g., JRuby, Groovy, Rhino, Scala...

 

[hazmatzak]

I imagine Oracle doesn't want to kill Java on Android, which would serve no purpose. They would rather perform a cash-ectomy.

There are 3 platforms currently shipped by Sun/Oracle : J2SE (Standard Edition), J2EE (Enterprise Edition), and J2ME (Mobility Edition).

Thankfully Sun dropped the "Java 2" nonsense (started with version 1.2) by version 1.6 -- it's now "Java SE", "Java EE", and "Java ME": e.g. currently Java SE 6, or JSE6. And it's "Micro Edition", not "Mobility".

 

[goosnarrggh]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/13/oracle_sues_google/

According to this they are claiming copyright infringement:

"Without consent, authorization, approval, or license, Google knowingly, willingly, and unlawfully copied, prepared, published, and distributed Oracle America's copyrighted work, portions thereof, or derivative works and continues to do so," Oracle attorneys, which include renowned litigator David Boies, wrote. "Google's Android infringes Oracle America's copyrights in Java and Google is not licensed to do so."

Aha, you're right they did.

I haven't parused Android's source code, or compared it to Oracle's Java implementation, so I guess I can't comment any further on that part of it, except to acknowledge that Oracle has made indeed the claim.

 

[Bytor65]

Now, that's largely solved, so people have started to notice the other problem--that Java itself is just a stupid, stupid, terribly-designed language. It's a mishmash of every approach under the sun taking the worst from each. This is why there has been an absolute *explosion* in languages that run on the JVM to leverage its benefits, but are not actually Java. E.g., JRuby, Groovy, Rhino, Scala...

That is just nerd rage nonsense. Java is a fine language. I would use it over "wacky syntax scripting language of the week".

Half these new 'rad' languages that seem to pop out every week are whitespace dependent. Talk about a monstrosity best left in the past that I haven't used since FORTRAN.

Most of these are hobby languages used by people that like to be different, have some pet feature of the author. One month they are telling everyone how great Python is, next month they are singing the praises of Ruby, next they are all about Rhino, next month... who knows...

 

[milo]

There's very little detail in this story about what specifically is being violated, so it seems like many people are going on the rampage without the facts.

It seems like Google could license and use Java if they wanted to, but didn't.

If they are really infringing patents and using someone else's code, then yes, they can be and should be sued over that.

It's possible they came up with a homebrew solution that runs Java apps without any java code and without infringing any patents, but right now I doubt anyone posting here knows either way.

Java is their creation, and they have the right to release it with a license agreement and enforce that license agreement. I'm not sure why that seems to be getting some people's panties in a bunch.

And even more ridiculous are the statements that "this means Java is going away!" and such. No reason to expect any change on platforms like mac since apple follows the license agreement.

 

[tlevier]

...and the lawyers always win!

Not in this case. In this case, the two companies use in-house lawyers, and if they do use outside counsel in some capacity, it will be very good terms, favorable to the company.

Lawyers screw the little guys. Only government gets to screw a company.