OS X El Capitan on Unsupported Macs

[a02]

*******************
Hello again a02

Since you kindly answered me before, I write to you again but any good soul who wants to help me is most warmly welcome to do so

I tried to run MCPF pointing (for safety reasons) to an external USB drive for the installation but always got an error message at the end of the MCPF process.
I then put inside my MB 4.1 another 2.5" HD I had made before with Mavericks on it (created with MCPF in a now non-working-any-longer MB 2.1).
The MB 4.1 refused to boot with that 10.9 HD.
Then I tried MCPF pointing this time to the inner Lion HD as installation drive but got the usual error message.

Finally I run MCPF pointing to install Mavericks to a 8 GB USB key.
I received after a while a message that it had "succeeded".
So MCPF created "some kind of installer" of Mavericks in that USB key.
I can see inside it all kind of files.
However I cannot boot from that key and do not know how to install Mavericks in the HD itself using that apparently "successful" key installation.

Any kind hint how to proceed will be very very appreciated!
Thank you very much!
Ed

Hi Ed,

I have not had any success creating a USB installer for any OS X version from MCPF using Lion. TMJRJ may be able to advise you further on correcting that issue. The only success I ever had was using the tool on a Yosemite system to create a 10.8 installer.

As far as the 10.9 install from a MBP 2,1 I believe that system may be an EFI32 system. The MacBook 4,1 is a EFI64 system. So the modified boot.efi on that install will not boot in that system. The problem with the 4,1 on newer versions has been a lack of support of the x3100 gpu, as well as the kexts for the sound chipset are not included natively anymore. This system is of course also prone to the lack of USB support with El Capitan.

You may follow the manual creation process of the version you are trying to work with as MacVidCards suggests. There are directions for each version in a similar posting to post 1 on this thread. Just remember not to replace the boot.efi that the EFI32 systems require. Otherwise you may have better luck using the sfott tool located in the forums for 10.9 and 10.10. To use MCPF you need a system running something newer than Lion.

 

[ericsmusic]

Hi all,

My currently preparing my El Capitan installer on a USB thumb drive and I'm stuck where I have to replace the boot.efi, I changed it in /System/Library/CoreServices and /usr/standalone/i386 but I can't find RecoveryHD so I can't replace that one, any help would be really appreciated

Thanks

 

[Riwam]

Hi Ed,

I have not had any success creating a USB installer for any OS X version from MCPF using Lion. TMJRJ may be able to advise you further on correcting that issue. The only success I ever had was using the tool on a Yosemite system to create a 10.8 installer.

As far as the 10.9 install from a MBP 2,1 I believe that system may be an EFI32 system. The MacBook 4,1 is a EFI64 system. So the modified boot.efi on that install will not boot in that system. The problem with the 4,1 on newer versions has been a lack of support of the x3100 gpu, as well as the kexts for the sound chipset are not included natively anymore. This system is of course also prone to the lack of USB support with El Capitan.

You may follow the manual creation process of the version you are trying to work with as MacVidCards suggests. There are directions for each version in a similar posting to post 1 on this thread. Just remember not to replace the boot.efi that the EFI32 systems require. Otherwise you may have better luck using the sfott tool located in the forums for 10.9 and 10.10. To use MCPF you need a system running something newer than Lion.

*********
Thank you very much for your very kind answer and your own experience!

Do you suggest me to try to follow the Extractor if I understand your words?
I hope to manage with it since my knowledge is quite limited.
At what step must I avoid, as you say, to replace the Boot.efi???
Kindly detail it "for dummies" please.

Regarding using a newer Mac, as you suggest, my MP 6.1 refused to deal with older OSX and it is the only modern Intel Mac I have.
Maybe by using a VM and connecting to it a USB HD, it might be possible to create through MCPF installers for 10.8 and for 10.9 and see if they allow me to boot the MB 4.1 using that same USB HD attached this time to the MB.
However I am afraid that the MB might see some kind of "differences" because made in another machine (?)

I still don't understand the MCPF message of final "success" I received with my USB Key and 10.9 (working from the Lion MB 4.1).
At the beginning when I pointed to the USB key there was a question regarding possible other Macs I had the intention to use with that key.
So I thought it would turn to be a booting installer, but it didn't work as such once finished.
Have you any idea what MCPF intended to let me do with that "successful" key???

Thank you again for your help!
Ed

 

[Riwam]

May I ask what the error code was? It could be the Recovery Partition Issue that MLforAll was spending most of his time fixing.

*******
Thank you very much for your kind answer TMRJIJ

I didn't want to bother you as the thread starter or anybody else by submitting the error code and error log I repeatedly received at the end of each failure.
However if you will be so kind to have a look at it, I will gladly repeat one of my past unsuccesses and tell you the error code.

Could you be so kind to tell me why MCPF informed me so happily that I had "succeeded" when trying 10.9 with MCPF and pointing this time to a 8 GB USB key?
What am I supposed to do with that "successful" key to justify the joy of MCPF?

Thank you again very very much!
Ed

 

[Riwam]

May I ask what the error code was? It could be the Recovery Partition Issue that MLforAll was spending most of his time fixing.

********
ERROR CODE 3

Any suggestion to help me please?

Any suggestion of the purpose of my only "success" which happens to be a 8 GB USB key I don't know what to do with?

Thank you very much!
Ed

P.S. there is an indication as well that this error is a known one.
MCPF cannot correct it but one could.
To correct it one should go to http://osxhackers.th/err69713.html
Unfortunately this page does not exist

 

[atvusr]

I can't find RecoveryHD

Try the method as described in Post #112.

 

[atvusr]

Regarding using a newer Mac, as you suggest, my MP 6.1 refused to deal with older OSX and it is the only modern Intel Mac I have.

If your Mac Pro 6,1 runs with OSX 10.11 then simply make a copy of the OSX 10.11 Partition with e.g. 'Carbon Copy Cloner' onto another Hard Disk and connect the copy to your MB4,1. Don't forget to enable Remote Desktop before, since the built-in USB of the MB4,1 won't work at the moment and you have to control the MB4,1 via the MP6,1.

Due to the USB-issues it's probably better to try to run OSX 10.10 Yosemite or OSX 10.8 ML on the MB4,1:

OS X Yosemite on Unsupported Macs [Guide]

Success! Install 10.8 on old unsupported Mac

 

[TMRJIJ]

********
ERROR CODE 3

Any suggestion to help me please?

Any suggestion of the purpose of my only "success" which happens to be a 8 GB USB key I don't know what to do with?

Thank you very much!
Ed

P.S. there is an indication as well that this error is a known one.
MCPF cannot correct it but one could.
To correct it one should go to http://osxhackers.th/err69713.html
Unfortunately this page does not exist

http://osxhackers.net/err69713.html
We purchased a new domain.

This is definitely the Recovery Partition (dmtest) issue that I mentioned in previous posts in which MLforAll was working on.

Skype Message:
"...And on the dmtest workaround, I have designed 2 workarounds. The 1st one, prevent errors with dmtest caused wrong ‘versions’ (when you want to create a ML recovery, creating it from Lion can cause issues for example). The 2nd one, (is by the way the only workaround that’ll be available for El Cap+) creates the recovery with Apple’s BaseSystem.dmg and then replaces the dmg file inside the recovery partition by the MacPostFactor one (this second workaround has a disadvantage, the OS X install packages cannot fit inside it, so if you want to use the Clean Install feature from the recovery, it’ll ask you to select the path where is stored ‘Install OS X ___.app’ (it can be stored in another internal partition as well as an external hard drive or USB key, no matter the folder it is inside). The 2nd workaround is part of a new feature called Small Recovery."
-Kelian Dumarais (MLforAll)

 

[Riwam]

Hi Ed,

I have not had any success creating a USB installer for any OS X version from MCPF using Lion. TMJRJ may be able to advise you further on correcting that issue. The only success I ever had was using the tool on a Yosemite system to create a 10.8 installer.

As far as the 10.9 install from a MBP 2,1 I believe that system may be an EFI32 system. The MacBook 4,1 is a EFI64 system. So the modified boot.efi on that install will not boot in that system. The problem with the 4,1 on newer versions has been a lack of support of the x3100 gpu, as well as the kexts for the sound chipset are not included natively anymore. This system is of course also prone to the lack of USB support with El Capitan.

You may follow the manual creation process of the version you are trying to work with as MacVidCards suggests. There are directions for each version in a similar posting to post 1 on this thread. Just remember not to replace the boot.efi that the EFI32 systems require. Otherwise you may have better luck using the sfott tool located in the forums for 10.9 and 10.10. To use MCPF you need a system running something newer than Lion.

*******

Hello a02

I tried to install the Extractor 1.3 on the MB 4.1
Result: Not good at all...
1) ML and Yosemite files grayed out. Only Mavericks has a non grayed indication.
2) Every time, I get after a few seconds a kernel panic and the message of failure.
So that way is not feasable either.

I miss a tutorial regarding install of Mavericks in unsupported Macs.
Is there such a thing and I am too blind to find it?
By the way the same seems to apply to 10.8. I found just very old posts.
Only this thread as in post #1 a detailed step by step explanation, but...it refers to Yosemite and for some reason the Extractor 1.3 does not offer it to me as a possibility when installing it in my MB 4.1.

Any suggestion?
Thanks!
Ed

 

[TMRJIJ]

*******

Hello a02

I tried to install the Extractor 1.3 on the MB 4.1
Result: Not good at all...
1) ML and Yosemite files grayed out. Only Mavericks has a non grayed indication.
2) Every time, I get after a few seconds a kernel panic and the message of failure.
So that way is not feasable either.

I miss a tutorial regarding install of Mavericks in unsupported Macs.
Is there such a thing and I am too blind to find it?
By the way the same seems to apply to 10.8. I found just very old posts.
Only this thread as in post #1 a detailed step by step explanation, but...it refers to Yosemite and for some reason the Extractor 1.3 does not offer it to me as a possibility when installing it in my MB 4.1.

Any suggestion?
Thanks!
Ed

You need the Install OS X Installer app in your Applications folder in order to continue installation of OS X Extractor

 

[Riwam]

http://osxhackers.net/err69713.html
We purchased a new domain.

This is definitely the Recovery Partition (dmtest) issue that I mentioned in previous posts in which MLforAll was working on.

Skype Message:
"...And on the dmtest workaround, I have designed 2 workarounds. The 1st one, prevent errors with dmtest caused wrong ‘versions’ (when you want to create a ML recovery, creating it from Lion can cause issues for example). The 2nd one, (is by the way the only workaround that’ll be available for El Cap+) creates the recovery with Apple’s BaseSystem.dmg and then replaces the dmg file inside the recovery partition by the MacPostFactor one (this second workaround has a disadvantage, the OS X install packages cannot fit inside it, so if you want to use the Clean Install feature from the recovery, it’ll ask you to select the path where is stored ‘Install OS X ___.app’ (it can be stored in another internal partition as well as an external hard drive or USB key, no matter the folder it is inside). The 2nd workaround is part of a new feature called Small Recovery."
-Kelian Dumarais (MLforAll)

***********
Thank you very much for your quick answer.
Now I know what sort of problem is concerned, although no more than that...
What about my second question referring to the apparently "succesful" install of 10.9 in a USB stick?
What good is it for?
What can be done with it... supposing that something can be done at all?

Thanks!
Ed

 

[Riwam]

You need the Install OS X Installer app in your Applications folder in order to continue installation of OS X Extractor

****
Thank you for the hint.
However I now get the kernel panic faster than I can clik on the package!
I assume we both speak of the so called "OS X Hackers.app"
Am I wrong?
Ed

 

[seijinshu]

Are there any updates on the El Capitan support for the MB 4,1? I just nuked my Yosemite partition due to it not working after a software update (do not ask why I did it). I am willing to be a test subject (if I am ever in a dev team, I am always the tester, as I know how to dig myself out of holes when needed).

 

[MacVidCards]

Go for it.

You will likely have no USB so plan accordingly.

 

[seijinshu]

OK. Thanks for the info. I will get started with that tommorow, so I will post updates.

 

[Riwam]

Hi Ed,

I have not had any success creating a USB installer for any OS X version from MCPF using Lion. TMJRJ may be able to advise you further on correcting that issue. The only success I ever had was using the tool on a Yosemite system to create a 10.8 installer.

As far as the 10.9 install from a MBP 2,1 I believe that system may be an EFI32 system. The MacBook 4,1 is a EFI64 system. So the modified boot.efi on that install will not boot in that system. The problem with the 4,1 on newer versions has been a lack of support of the x3100 gpu, as well as the kexts for the sound chipset are not included natively anymore. This system is of course also prone to the lack of USB support with El Capitan.

You may follow the manual creation process of the version you are trying to work with as MacVidCards suggests. There are directions for each version in a similar posting to post 1 on this thread. Just remember not to replace the boot.efi that the EFI32 systems require. Otherwise you may have better luck using the sfott tool located in the forums for 10.9 and 10.10. To use MCPF you need a system running something newer than Lion.

******************
Hello a02

Finally I followed your advice and used MCPF in my MP 6.1 with an external USB HD with several partitions.
In one of them I succeeded to create an installer for 10.8 and in a second one for 10.9.
For reasons unknown to me MCPF did not offer me Yosemite (?)
Afterwards I connected the USB HD to the Lion MB 4.1 and booted into the partition with 10.8.
To my surprise the installer worked and updated my Lion to 10.8.
Booting again to the partition with 10.9 this time I was again surprised to find a working installer which updated the MB 4.1 from 10.8 to 10.9.5.
Until now I found no issues and hope not to discover any.

I do not understand the indication in "about this Mac" of a "6 MB Graphic Card" since Apple gives 144 MB of (shared) RAM for the video specs of the MB 4.1.

I thank you very much for your very useful suggestion to try it in a Mac running a newer OSX instead of failing continuously to get any working MCPF installer on the MB 4.1 running Lion, itself.

Many thanks also to the thread starter TMRJIJ and to MacVidCards.

I am happy with 10.9 on the MB 4.1 and suppose there must be a good reason why MCPF did not offer me for a MB 4.1 Yosemite as a possible choice...although have no idea how MCPF could know about my MB 4.1 as the target computer, when I did the MCPF preparation of the installers in a MP 6.1 ???

There is a popular saying in spanish which, translated, is more or less
"I do not believe in witches, but that they exist, they certainly exist!"
This about the "extra sensorial" knowledge in MCPF about what target computer I intended to use...while working in an entirely different Mac...

Thank you again to all those behind MCPF and the goodwill to help to give further life to previous models of Macs.
Ed

 

[TMRJIJ]

******************
Hello a02

Finally I followed your advice and used MCPF in my MP 6.1 with an external USB HD with several partitions.
In one of them I succeeded to create an installer for 10.8 and in a second one for 10.9.
For reasons unknown to me MCPF did not offer me Yosemite (?)
Afterwards I connected the USB HD to the Lion MB 4.1 and booted into the partition with 10.8.
To my surprise the installer worked and updated my Lion to 10.8.
Booting again to the partition with 10.9 this time I was again surprised to find a working installer which updated the MB 4.1 from 10.8 to 10.9.5.
Until now I found no issues and hope not to discover any.

I do not understand the indication in "about this Mac" of a "6 MB Graphic Card" since Apple gives 144 MB of (shared) RAM for the video specs of the MB 4.1.

I thank you very much for your very useful suggestion to try it in a Mac running a newer OSX instead of failing continuously to get any working MCPF installer on the MB 4.1 running Lion, itself.

Many thanks also to the thread starter TMRJIJ and to MacVidCards.

The Kexts were not installed correctly. That is why you are seeing 6 MB Graphics instead of 144 MB
You can get your Kexts from OS X Extractor. Use Pacifist and in the Kext folder, extract your Graphics Card model installer

 

[Riwam]

The Kexts were not installed correctly. That is why you are seeing 6 MB Graphics instead of 144 MB
You can get your Kexts from OS X Extractor. Use Pacifist and in the Kext folder, extract your Graphics Card model installer

****************

Thank you very much TMRJIJ for your kind explanation of the 6 MB video RAM.

However...
Would you be so kind PLEASE to formulate for me STEP BY STEP the procedure I should follow to replace my faulty kext by those proper kexts?

I am afraid I will mess everything unless you explain it "for dummies" in a way like this:
number 1- search with Pacifist THIS file with THIS NAME from THIS part of the Extractor...
number 2- do THIS and THAT with those kexts in case they do not allow to be extracted...
number 3- put THIS or THOSE kexts into THAT PART of your system replacing THIS FILE in your MB 4.1 and, if it doesn't let you, then DO THIS TO SUCCEED...
and so on... and so forth...

Would you please reformulate kindly your above indication in such an unmistakable way, PLEASE?
For you it should be just a few minutes...but for me it will be a great reassurance I do not ruin it !!!
You will win for sure a place in HEAVEN if you help me step by step, as requested (promissed in the name of St. Peter...)

Thank you heartily in advance for doing it so!
from Dummy Old Ed

 

[Riwam]

Hi Ed,

I have not had any success creating a USB installer for any OS X version from MCPF using Lion. TMJRJ may be able to advise you further on correcting that issue. The only success I ever had was using the tool on a Yosemite system to create a 10.8 installer.

As far as the 10.9 install from a MBP 2,1 I believe that system may be an EFI32 system. The MacBook 4,1 is a EFI64 system. So the modified boot.efi on that install will not boot in that system. The problem with the 4,1 on newer versions has been a lack of support of the x3100 gpu, as well as the kexts for the sound chipset are not included natively anymore. This system is of course also prone to the lack of USB support with El Capitan.

You may follow the manual creation process of the version you are trying to work with as MacVidCards suggests. There are directions for each version in a similar posting to post 1 on this thread. Just remember not to replace the boot.efi that the EFI32 systems require. Otherwise you may have better luck using the sfott tool located in the forums for 10.9 and 10.10. To use MCPF you need a system running something newer than Lion.

*************
Hello a02

The thread starter TMRJIJ was so kind to informe me I installed wrong kexts in my MB 4.1 (now with Mavericks).
In post #268 above this one I asked him for a detailed step-by-step guide how to replace my faulty kexts by the correct ones.
In case he hasn't got the time to answer me yet and you do, please help me if you can explain to me how I should proceed in detail.
I am truly afraid to make a mess by myself without entirely detailed instructions!

Thank you very much!
Ed

 

[Riwam]

Go for it.

You will likely have no USB so plan accordingly.

***********
Hello MacVidCards

In post #268 I asked the thread starter Isiah for help.
If he has not yet the time for it and you can help me with a step-by-step guide how to correct my faulty kexts, you are warmly invited to do so.
Without detailed instructions of knowing people like you, I am afraid to do anything.

Thank you very much!
Ed

 

[atvusr]

@Riwam

Please note that this thread is about installing OSX 10.11 El Capitan on unsupported older Macs. Please do not mix it with issues from other versions of OSX, it confuses the readers who are only interested in running OSX 10.11 on their older Macs.

Please consult the other threads about OSX on unsupported older Macs:

OS X Yosemite on Unsupported Macs [Guide]

[Guide] Installing 10.9 Mavericks on older Macs

Success! Install 10.8 on old unsupported Mac

 

[Riwam]

@Riwam

Please note that this thread is about installing OSX 10.11 El Capitan on unsupported older Macs. Please do not mix it with issues from other versions of OSX, it confuses the readers who are only interested in running OSX 10.11 on their older Macs.

Please consult the other threads about OSX on unsupported older Macs:

OS X Yosemite on Unsupported Macs [Guide]

[Guide] Installing 10.9 Mavericks on older Macs

Success! Install 10.8 on old unsupported Mac

Yes, I am perfectly aware of it.
However this thread offers in post #1 a complete users guide of both MCPF and Extractor and BOTH TOOLS are intended NOT ONLY for El Capitan but as well to install older OSX versions.

Besides, this thread gets continuously fresh posts daily with new and useful info about those 2 tools and their development.
If you follow your 2 lower links (those for 10.8 and 10.9), you find out soon they do not offer neither any comprehensive Guide or Wiki any longer nor fresh entries with new data.

I have no doubt that readers in this thread are clever enough to see which posts concern El Capitan and which posts concern the 2 mentioned tools, and that they certainly won't get "confused" as you pretend.
I believe in their IQ. Don't you???

I would be glad to post in other threads you mention if the guides for MCPF and the Extractor to be found in post #1 of this thread were copied (with any necessary modifications) in the threads for 10.8 and 10.9... and if fresh info would flow as well to them, but unfortunately this is not the case.
The posts in the threads for OSX 10.8 and 10.9 are simply much too old!!!

I could -of course- post, instead of here, in the thread for Yosemite, which has also a guide on post #1 and still gets new posts, but also in that thread I risk to find some good soul, wanting to throw me away as soon as I deal with those 2 fantastic tools but... dare mention 10.8 or 10.9...

So I hope you will nicely overcome your "confusion"... and succeed with your El Capitan projects in spite of my "nuisance".

Ed

 

[atvusr]

However this thread offers in post #1 a complete users guide of both MCPF and Extractor and BOTH TOOLS are intended NOT ONLY for El Capitan but as well to install older OSX versions.

But this thread is only intended for El Capitan, independent from the content of the Tools.

Besides, this thread gets continuously fresh posts daily with new and useful info about those 2 tools and their development.

These infos are normally intended for OSX 10.11 El Capitan.
Because of the System Integrity Protection, OSX 10.11 is now a lot different than the previous versions of OSX.

If you follow your 2 lower links (those for 10.8 and 10.9), you find out soon they do not offer neither any comprehensive Guide or Wiki any longer nor fresh entries with new data.

There's no Guide anymore because the Developer 'hackerwayne' had left the project last year's fall and the infos were moved to TMRJIJ's website http://osxhackers.net.

I have no doubt that readers in this thread are clever enough to see which posts concern El Capitan and which posts concern the 2 mentioned tools, and that they certainly won't get "confused" as you pretend.

No, there're absolute beginners which don't see at a first glance the differences between the respective versions of OS X. They then post: "But in Post #9999 it was mentioned that ..." and don't recognize that a solution for OSX 10.8 / 10.9 doesn't work anymore in OSX 10.11.

I would be glad to post in other threads you mention if the guides for MCPF and the Extractor to be found in post #1 of this thread were copied (with any necessary modifications) in the threads for 10.8 and 10.9... and if fresh info would flow as well to them, but unfortunately this is not the case.

Neither OSX 10.8 / 10.9 nor the MB4,1 are completely new, you have only to read through the Posts to find the appropriate solution. Maybe this Post helps.

The posts in the threads for OSX 10.8 and 10.9 are simply much too old!!!

Because OSX 10.8 and 10.9 are old.

I could -of course- post, instead of here, in the thread for Yosemite, which has also a guide on post #1 and still gets new posts, but also in that thread I risk to find some good soul, wanting to throw me away as soon as I deal with those 2 fantastic tools but... dare mention 10.8 or 10.9...

Simply ask your questions in the appropriate 10.8 / 10.9 threads. Don't expect a instant answer and do not beg / nerve.

 

[TMRJIJ]

As reported in the Yosemite Thread:

(For Mac Pro users in this OS X version) A small bug in the Software Update Patch has been discovered. Mac App Store updates doesn't actually finish resulting in a momentary white screen. Rest assured that your Mac will eventually boot after a minute of two. Check the 'About this Mac' which shows the correct version meaning full correct firmware update and completing as well.

The OS X Hackers (1.2) App is linked to an old invalid URL address. Many, if not, all users will not see the Web App/Guide. As we finish up with the new responsive version of the OS X Hackers App, we encourage everyone to use post 1 instead and just close the app as it pops up. http://osxhackers.net is the new domain. The .tk domain has expired.
I will check all links and make sure they point to the correct domain.

OS X Extractor 1.3.1 will address these issues and an issue that causes some Macs to not finish OSXE installation due to certain Network Configurations. An Delta Update for OSXE1.2 or later will also be worked on to address OS X Hackers App issue for people who are still using.

The Release Notes will be updated soon to address these bugs.

 

[Riwam]

But this thread is only intended for El Capitan, independent from the content of the Tools.
These infos are normally intended for OSX 10.11 El Capitan.
Because of the System Integrity Protection, OSX 10.11 is now a lot different than the previous versions of OSX.
There's no Guide anymore because the Developer 'hackerwayne' had left the project last year's fall and the infos were moved to TMRJIJ's website osxhackers.net.
No, there're absolute beginners which don't see at a first glance the differences between the respective versions of OS X. They then post: "But in Post #9999 it was mentioned that ..." and don't recognize that a solution for OSX 10.8 / 10.9 doesn't work anymore in OSX 10.11.
Neither OSX 10.8 / 10.9 nor the MB4,1 are completely new, you have only to read through the Posts to find the appropriate solution.
Because OSX 10.8 and 10.9 are old.
Simply ask your questions in the appropriate 10.8 / 10.9 threads. Don't expect a instant answer and do not beg / nerve.

*************************************************
As the popular saying teaches us
"It takes all kind of people to make a world".
Some are very friendly and helpful (Thanks God for them) and others, well, they enjoy showing that others make mistakes or wrong things, like posting in a thread something they want to see elsewhere (or actually not see at all), discussing older software versions instead of the one in the title of the thread, and so on...
Actually they are those who "nerve" but of course, they are always right to do so...
I am glad about the friendly ones in this forum and very thankful to them and prefer not to think about those like you dear atvusr, who do not help but instead teach others behaviour.
You will always believe to be right...so no sense to discuss with you.
I prefer to keep my nerves for other problems.
Ed