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iObama

macrumors 65816
Nov 16, 2008
1,098
2,616
I fired up Parallels and Windows earlier and it said some kind of catastrophic error had occurred and it insisted I report it to Parallels.
So I did :)
The VM ran fine once loaded though.
It's a mystery :)

Yeah, I had some weird errors and had to force restarts a couple times, but once I plowed through all of that, it's been super stable.
 
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MooffooM

macrumors newbie
Mar 27, 2020
28
21
most cloud infrastructure has transitioned to all flash.
Not even close. If even one of the top 5 hyper scalers went all in on flash, it would consume all of the flash fab capacity in the world today. Paraphrasing Monty Python: "Hard drives aren't quite dead yet".

Not a comment on the rest of your post; simply a comment on the current state of hyper scalers. There is a lot of flash deployed; but there are still far more bits on rust. This could change in the next 5 years or so...
 

nobackup

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2008
200
40
Not even close. If even one of the top 5 hyper scalers went all in on flash, it would consume all of the flash fab capacity in the world today. Paraphrasing Monty Python: "Hard drives aren't quite dead yet".

Not a comment on the rest of your post; simply a comment on the current state of hyper scalers. There is a lot of flash deployed; but there are still far more bits on rust. This could change in the next 5 years or so...
I run a nationalCloud Service provider we just upgrade to all flash as our hybrid customers demand that we have similar performance in storage to the “hyperscalers”. When we checked all G,a and M claim all flash. We have hundreds in production across our sites and we like the big guys only use spinning now for long term and cold storage.
 

kave

macrumors 6502a
Oct 31, 2012
567
308
Sweden
Using latest Parallels and Windows 10 for ARM got me a Geekbench result of single core 1529 and Multicore score of 6188. MacBook Pro with 16GB of ram and 1TB SSD, in clamshell mode connected to a 27" Dell display:
Parallels ARM Windows.png
 

Macalway

macrumors 601
Aug 7, 2013
4,186
2,934
Thanks for that :D. So you need a valid Win 10 key to activate the insider. One key I have isn't working, but as I recall, it's possible to get a key through your Microsoft account, if you have an active one. How do you do that? (easily that is).
 
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MooffooM

macrumors newbie
Mar 27, 2020
28
21
I run a nationalCloud Service provider we just upgrade to all flash as our hybrid customers demand that we have similar performance in storage to the “hyperscalers”. When we checked all G,a and M claim all flash. We have hundreds in production across our sites and we like the big guys only use spinning now for long term and cold storage.
Long term and cold storage represent the vast majority of bits... as I originally stated, if any one of the big 5 hyperscalers went all in, there is not enough flash fab capacity in the world to satisfy the demand. Of course part of the reason is that fabs must run near capacity to be profitable, and no one wants to stand extra fabs at 5 billion dollars a pop unless there are commitments... but the fact is most hyperscale bits are still on rust.
 

nobackup

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2008
200
40
Thanks for that :D. So you need a valid Win 10 key to activate the insider. One key I have isn't working, but as I recall, it's possible to get a key through your Microsoft account, if you have an active one. How do you do that? (easily that is).
No need for key runs fine (by design) inactivated.
 

nobackup

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2008
200
40
Long term and cold storage represent the vast majority of bits... as I originally stated, if any one of the big 5 hyperscalers went all in, there is not enough flash fab capacity in the world to satisfy the demand. Of course part of the reason is that fabs must run near capacity to be profitable, and no one wants to stand extra fabs at 5 billion dollars a pop unless there are commitments... but the fact is most hyperscale bits are still on rust.
Well you just killed your own argument. The fact that production storage at the hyperscaler level is mainly SSD (full flash) or Hybrid (ssd Cache) shows that SSD Can take millions of hits and that SSDa would fail all the time from these high usage pattern , then we would have a world wide shortage .. which we don’t have.

stop while your ahead you state facts of which you have no proof. And capture your self in your own logic bomb.. sometimes just better to walk away

even a quick google could have given you some facts

just the first Artikel I found. But states quite clearly that the hyperscalers were moving in this direction 2 years ago. Also go look at the recent open compute standard driven by Facebook clearly states all flash is the way to go and is being pushed.
 
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mo5214

macrumors regular
Sep 20, 2019
145
102
Well you just killed your own argument. The fact that production storage at the hyperscaler level is mainly SSD (full flash) or Hybrid (ssd Cache) shows that SSD Can take millions of hits and that SSDa would fail all the time from these high usage pattern , then we would have a world wide shortage .. which we don’t have.

stop while your ahead you state facts of which you have no proof. And capture your self in your own logic bomb.. sometimes just better to walk away
But then again. Enterprise grade SSDs and Consumers one can have vastly different NAND types and endurance rating. Some real high end stuff might still be using SLC as opposed to consumer drives that now are using TLC and might even QLC in the future.

enterprise rating are rated using DWPD (Drive Writes Per Day in Terabytes)
Samsung PM1733 and PM1735 are rated or 1 DWPD and 3 DWPD over 5 year period respectively.

Standard rating for consumer SSDs seems to be 1200TBW (Terabytes written) for 2TB drives, 600 TBW for 1TB drives. With lower-end drives barely make it past the rated write and high end doing 8-9x that rating (Samsung drives mainly)

So even with 2TB drives, they are rated for roughly 0.658 DWPD (658 GB/day over 5 yrs)

From this you will see that enterprise SSDs are rated over 4.5 times over their consumer counterpart.

The highest data written for consumer SSD that I found was 850 Pro (MLC NAND, flagship when launched) from a test few years back with 9100 TBW before drive fails. But these kind of drives that go beyond the rating like this are rare, and you shouldn't count on it happening on mid-range drives, especially on TLC drives,

I think M1 uses TLC NAND, as it is most commonly used right now. the NAND is from Sandisk in M1 Air/Pro. And Sandisk NANDs are nowhere near Samsung NANDs in quality (Samsung is market leader)

running a VM on SSDs can wear them quickly, that's why enterprise drives exist :/
 

nobackup

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2008
200
40
But then again. Enterprise grade SSDs and Consumers one can have vastly different NAND types and endurance rating. Some real high end stuff might still be using SLC as opposed to consumer drives that now are using TLC and might even QLC in the future.

enterprise rating are rated using DWPD (Drive Writes Per Day in Terabytes)
Samsung PM1733 and PM1735 are rated or 1 DWPD and 3 DWPD over 5 year period respectively.

Standard rating for consumer SSDs seems to be 1200TBW (Terabytes written) for 2TB drives, 600 TBW for 1TB drives. With lower-end drives barely make it past the rated write and high end doing 8-9x that rating (Samsung drives mainly)

So even with 2TB drives, they are rated for roughly 0.658 DWPD (658 GB/day over 5 yrs)

From this you will see that enterprise SSDs are rated over 4.5 times over their consumer counterpart.

The highest data written for consumer SSD that I found was 850 Pro (MLC NAND, flagship when launched) from a test few years back with 9100 TBW before drive fails. But these kind of drives that go beyond the rating like this are rare, and you shouldn't count on it happening on mid-range drives, especially on TLC drives,

I think M1 uses TLC NAND, as it is most commonly used right now. the NAND is from Sandisk in M1 Air/Pro. And Sandisk NANDs are nowhere near Samsung NANDs in quality (Samsung is market leader)

running a VM on SSDs can wear them quickly, that's why enterprise drives exist :/
All wrong yet again. Enterprise drives are only in the Spinning domain , latest technology in SSD makes them more expensive and less available in the beginning so they Target the Enterprise ... Cloud providers like us actually use plain old what you call consumer grade (which is the technology they call enterprise 2 years ago). Due to cost no real advantage in “enterprise” we need lots and cheap.

And completely wrong on the stop start of VM. That’s today 100% ssd, as is the caching of memory for the host again ssd

Here a blog that also completely kills all your SSD arguments including a study by google and a university (hyperscalers and a researcher)


So keep on with your version of reality, and Please go start an anti ssd ... Apple sucks campaign on Facebook .. or why not start a class action against Apple ... seems you know all the facts ...

Last question to you, so does 5G mean that the government is trying to control us ?
 

ractdi

macrumors newbie
Nov 6, 2020
28
25
Has anyone been able to get teams installed and running? I have it installed on my Mac but when I try to install in the VM I get numerous errors and it aborts
 

mo5214

macrumors regular
Sep 20, 2019
145
102
All wrong yet again. Enterprise drives are only in the Spinning domain , latest technology in SSD makes them more expensive and less available in the beginning so they Target the Enterprise ... Cloud providers like us actually use plain old what you call consumer grade (which is the technology they call enterprise 2 years ago). Due to cost no real advantage in “enterprise” we need lots and cheap.

And completely wrong on the stop start of VM. That’s today 100% ssd, as is the caching of memory for the host again ssd

Here a blog that also completely kills all your SSD arguments including a study by google and a university (hyperscalers and a researcher)


So keep on with your version of reality, and Please go start an anti ssd ... Apple sucks campaign on Facebook .. or why not start a class action against Apple ... seems you know all the facts ...

Last question to you, so does 5G mean that the government is trying to control us ?
I think you seemed to confuse “reliability” (as in Time between Failure) vs “endurance of the NAND Cell”. Since endurance is affected only by the NAND cell wearing out vs reliability that involves the controller and dram its DRAM Cache.

Since VMs will have limited amounts of RAM available to them (given M1 has abysmal 16 GB to allocate to begin with)

it is likely to use swap, which means it will use ssd. And going by “your” paper, once we wear the cells out that it start giving unrecoverable read/write errors. You will start having more and more.

i’ve never said that SSD is more reliable than HDD. That would be hilarious. My concern was that once it dies (or worse started to silently corrupt users file by bit rot), you have no option to replace it and would have to buy a new machine as it is likely to die outside of the 5 year Apple is going support it.

Im afraid my version of reality is backed by numbers. Please go check my prior posts in this thread with link to source of the original testing and specs.

Also it seemed you have confused me with someone else. And stop with name calling. I think that it’s immature. (And I’m actually pro SSD in fact)

Excerpt of the paper your mentioned:

summary:

“we see that this perception is cor- rect when it comes to SLC drives and their RBER, as they are orders of magnitude lower than for MLC and eMLC drives. However, Tables 2 and 5 show that SLC drives do not perform better for those measures of reliability that matter most in practice: SLC drives don’t have lower re-pair or replacement rates, and don’t typically have lower rates of non-transparent errors.”

“• While flash drives offer lower field replacement rates than hard disk drives, they have a significantly higher rate of problems that can impact the user, such as un- correctable errors.”

• Previous errors of various types are predictive of later uncorrectable errors”

and

“• Bad blocks and bad chips occur at a significant rate: depending on the model, 30-80% of drives develop at least one bad block and and 2-7% develop at least one bad chip during the first four years in the field. The latter emphasizes the importance of mechanisms for mapping out bad chips, as otherwise drives with a bad chips will require repairs or be returned to the vendor.

• Drives tend to either have less than a handful of bad blocks, or a large number of them, suggesting that im- pending chip failure could be predicted based on prior number of bad blocks (and maybe other factors). Also, a drive with a large number of factory bad blocks has a higher chance of developing more bad blocks in the field, as well as certain types of errors.”
 

MooffooM

macrumors newbie
Mar 27, 2020
28
21
Well you just killed your own argument. The fact that production storage at the hyperscaler level is mainly SSD (full flash) or Hybrid (ssd Cache) shows that SSD Can take millions of hits and that SSDa would fail all the time from these high usage pattern , then we would have a world wide shortage .. which we don’t have.

stop while your ahead you state facts of which you have no proof. And capture your self in your own logic bomb.. sometimes just better to walk away

even a quick google could have given you some facts

just the first Artikel I found. But states quite clearly that the hyperscalers were moving in this direction 2 years ago. Also go look at the recent open compute standard driven by Facebook clearly states all flash is the way to go and is being pushed.
1) My comments have nothing to do with reliability or failure rates with SSDs and your argument is seriously flawed. My only comment was the FACT that most bits are still on hard disks at the hyperscalers...

2) By your own admission you do not work for a flash manufacturer. I do.

3) Cherry pick your articles much? How about: https://blocksandfiles.com/2019/10/07/ssds-will-kill-hard-disks-in-enterprise/ - the hyperscalers are keeping the disk drive market alive.

or how about this quote from IDC in January of 2020:

"Worldwide HDD petabyte demand continues to increase as hyperscale/cloud service provider demand remains strong."

4) I stated that the tipping point may come in the future. This is consistent with both Facebook's position and the two year old article you site. As the OCP states, all flash is the way to go... It does not claim to be the current status quo.

Once again, the only claim I am making is that today, the majority of bits (not current sales, unit volumes, or any other measure) are on disks in the hyperscalers.

You are completely and utterly wrong in your assertion that the hyperscalers are all flash or even majority flash. Yes, they may move to that in the future. It is a matter of economics (price per bit and TCO) as well as manufacturing capacity, and the timing must align with the hyperscaler's individual hardware platform lifecycle. Although reliability, endurance, and failure rates are important, they are not the gating item for going to all flash at hyperscale.

Perhaps it is you that should walk away. I will not comment on this thread again. Believe whatever you want and feel free to have the last word.
 
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mo5214

macrumors regular
Sep 20, 2019
145
102
Calling it « nowhere near Samsung » is totally false. Sandisk makes good chips too, there is not only Samsung in this world that makes memory ICs. Sandisk is totally acceptable memory quality.
From this post.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/6jk9j9
That concluded this


Samsung 850 Pro -> 9100 TBW till fail
Sandisk Extreme Pro -> 2800 TBW till fail

I’d call 1/3rd endurance nowhere near. And both uses MLC NANDs. Thing might’ve changed since then.

But when the NAND is permanently soldered to the board. I sorta wished they’d pay a bit more and use best NANDs possible. The BOM savings from not using intel would more than cover the cost.

And its not that Apple had not used Samsung ssds in the past. The 2015 pros (and possibly 2013-2014) uses them.
 
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mo5214

macrumors regular
Sep 20, 2019
145
102
The test sample is quite low............
Tried to find more sources that had sandisk in the tests. But there is not a lot of these kind of tests around as these kind of test is essentially a “death march” for the ssd, and will kill the drive. :/

I also found this test earlier.


840 pro lasts beyond 2400 TBW despite only being rated for 73TBW

another test linked here (but original page is dead)

sees another 840 pro lasts beyond 3000 TBW

 
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pldelisle

macrumors 68020
May 4, 2020
2,248
1,506
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Tried to find more sources that had sandisk in the tests. But there is not a lot of these kind of tests around as these kind of test is essentially a “death march” for the ssd, and will kill the drive. :/
Statistically, this « experiment » has absolutely no value. You cannot draw any conclusion out of it.
 

mo5214

macrumors regular
Sep 20, 2019
145
102
Tried to find more sources that had sandisk in the tests. But there is not a lot of these kind of tests around as these kind of test is essentially a “death march” for the ssd, and will kill the drive. :/

I also found this test earlier.


840 pro lasts beyond 2400 TBW despite only being rated for 73TBW

another test linked here (but original page is dead)

sees another 840 pro lasts beyond 3000 TBW


but the only way to know for sure is to wait until some mad scientist performed an endurance test on the M1’s ssd
 

pldelisle

macrumors 68020
May 4, 2020
2,248
1,506
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Sandisk/Western Digital is the third largest NAND memory manufacturer in the world, even before Micron. I’m really not afraid by the SSD endurance. Yes, Samsung has incredible amount of money spent in R&D for IC manufacturing, but this doesn’t automatically translate into more endurant chips. I think you can do very, very long before the internal SSD of a Mac fail. Keep in mind the main use case of a Mac isn’t server one. A mac almost never writes Terabytes a day. The only one that can actually do this is Mac Pro and has M.2 SSDs. And if this is your use case, you’re probably doing it wrong...
 

mo5214

macrumors regular
Sep 20, 2019
145
102
Statistically, this « experiment » has absolutely no value. You cannot draw any conclusion out of it.
Check again. I happened to found a couple more.

But to be honest. I’m not getting funded to trash the ssds to make sure that it holds up statistically. So I’d have to make do with less than 10 data points. Sure it’s not a solid number but hey, its better than none.

This in combination of Samsung usually rating their SSD for more TBW than the competitors, and their lead in SSD market (and being the top 5 in Silicon Fabrication process/nodes) is enough to affirm my belief.

But of course, market leaders are leaders until they aren’t.

Would’ve loved to have a solid testing stats for you. But Im not made of cash :/
 
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