MP All Models PCIe SSDs - NVMe & AHCI

[GlynH]

IDK, didn't say it wouldn't work, I just picked up on it here

I read that thread previously and I remember it was a little confusing for me at the time.

Reading it again it seems though that you can use two dumb cards if you use slots 3 & 4 like I am doing here with the Sabrents?

But it also says that the Samsung 970 EVO Plus is incompatible with macOS but I have this blade in one Sabrent and a 970 Pro in the other - both 1TB - on a vanilla 5,1 running High Sierra on one & Mojave on the other with no OpenCore or other trickery going on.

Just lucky then I guess...

-=Glyn=-

 

[KeesMacPro]

I read that thread previously and I remember it was a little confusing for me at the time.

Reading it again it seems though that you can use two dumb cards if you use slots 3 & 4 like I am doing here with the Sabrents?

But it also says that the Samsung 970 EVO Plus is incompatible with macOS but I have this blade in one Sabrent and a 970 Pro in the other - both 1TB - on a vanilla 5,1 running High Sierra on one & Mojave on the other with no OpenCore or other trickery going on.

Just lucky then I guess...

-=Glyn=-

The thread is from 2018.

At that time the 970 EVO Plus still had a incompatible firmware version.
Later Samsung released a firmware update , so any 970 EVO Plus you buy new will work without issues in the MP.

If you read on in the afore mentioned thread you will see that there are reports of people that installed cards in slot 3 and 4 without issues.
Again, note that this was written in 2018 , so could be based on previous BootROM versions than 144.0.0.0.0

There's no problem at all to install 2 cards in slot 3 and 4 ( except a performance loss because 3 and 4 share lanes).

 

[GlynH]

The thread is from 2018.

At that time the 970 EVO Plus still had a incompatible firmware version.
Later Samsung released a firmware update , so any 970 EVO Plus you buy new will work without issues in the MP.

If you read on in the afore mentioned thread you will see that there are reports of people that installed cards in slot 3 and 4 without issues.
Again, note that this was written in 2018 , so could be based on previous BootROM versions than 144.0.0.0.0

There's no problem at all to install 2 cards in slot 3 and 4 ( except a performance loss because 3 and 4 share lanes).

Yeah I noticed the dates when I read it for the second time a little earlier and wondered if things might have moved on since?

Having said that I had issues with Samsung 870 EVO SSD very recently...I ended up sending all three of them back @5 weeks ago.

It's possible they might have been old stock but unlikely IMHO as I purchased from a high volume supplier.

Thanks & kind regards,
-=Glyn=-

 

[KeesMacPro]

Having said that I had issues with Samsung 870 EVO SSD very recently.

800 series = SATA
900 series = NVMe

The 870 and 860 QVO are known for issues in the MP.
The 850 EVO or 860 EVO work fine .

The 970 EVO /EVO Plus/ Pro work fine, not sure about the 980 series....

 

[trifero]

Sorry, but the thread you're referring to is from 2018....

There's no problem at all to install 2x a dumb card with ( latest) BootROM 144.0.0.0.0
The only thing is that PCIe slot 3 and 4 share lanes , so performance can be less than expected when the cards are installed in slot 3 and 4.
So e.g. slot 2 and 3 would be better .

AFAIK you're wrongly informed.

A Windows 10 UEFI install does support NVMe boot on the MP (but you may have to enable it in BIOS).

BIOS??

 

[andysa1966]

AFAIK you're wrongly informed.

A Windows 10 UEFI install does support NVMe boot on the MP (but you may have to enable it in BIOS).

A Windows UEFI install will write certificates that corrupts the mac bootrom? Ill be more than happy if Im wrongly informed.

 

[KeesMacPro]

BIOS??

Haven't tested it (and I'm no Windows expert) but it seems that to boot from a NVMe in Windows 10 you may have to set it in BIOS.

 

[KeesMacPro]

A Windows UEFI install will write certificates that corrupts the mac bootrom? Ill be more than happy if Im wrongly informed.

Sorry if I misunderstood but it seems that you're changing the subject.

If you install OpenCore , the BootROM is protected against Windows certificates in case of a UEFI install.

That said, you wrote:
"After further reading i discovered W10 UEFI is not compatable with PCIE nvme on the cMP"
My post was referring to that statement and like I said this is not correct.
Windows can be installed on a NVMe in a MP.

 

[andysa1966]

Sorry if I misunderstood but it seems that you're changing the subject.

If you install OpenCore , the BootROM is protected against Windows certificates in case of a UEFI install.

That said, you wrote:
"After further reading i discovered W10 UEFI is not compatable with PCIE nvme on the cMP"
My post was referring to that statement and like I said this is not correct.
Windows can be installed on a NVMe in a MP.

Great, Ill do some reading on opencore

 

[KeesMacPro]

Great, Ill do some reading on opencore

Open Core is fascinating : )

Another option is to install Windows in legacy mode.

 

[trifero]

Haven't tested it (and I'm no Windows expert) but it seems that to boot from a NVMe in Windows 10 you may have to set it in BIOS.

No BIOS in macs.

 

[Fastsavage]

The I/O speed with a single NVMe card should be ~ 1500mb/s .
This is indeed what I'm getting with the KRYO and a 970 EVO.

If you got ~800mb/s something's wrong.

Update:

With KRYO and 970 Eve Plus (new model with Samsung In-House controller I get around 1500mb/s so all good and happy with those speeds for what I need.

 

[Sharky II]

Anyone know how the WD Black 850 (or 850 Pro) works in a 5,1 with a cheap PCIe adaptor?

I'm looking to get a 1TB NVME to replace my 256GB AHCI SM951 for the boot drive.

 

[enplaned]

Anyone know how the WD Black 850 (or 850 Pro) works in a 5,1 with a cheap PCIe adaptor?

I'm looking to get a 1TB NVME to replace my 256GB AHCI SM951 for the boot drive.

What's a WD 850 "pro"? Is there any such device?

 

[Sharky II]

No, sorry, my mistake. Just the SN850, with or without heatsink.

I'd probably get without a heatsink as it will end up in a thunderbolt enclosure whenever I eventually move to Apple Silicon.

I've only seen reports discussing the 750 in a cMP

 

[enplaned]

No, sorry, my mistake. Just the SN850, with or without heatsink.

I'd probably get without a heatsink as it will end up in a thunderbolt enclosure whenever I eventually move to Apple Silicon.

I've only seen reports discussing the 750 in a cMP

My usual comment with respect to super-high-performance NVME drives like the 850 (or Samsung 980 Pro, etc) is that it's like hooking up a Mercedes AMG to a wood-cart. The 850 is a PCIe4.0x4 device, capable of read times close in/around 7000 MB/s. So what is the 5,1 capable of handling with a Sintech adapter? half of that? a quarter of that? less?

So I struggle to understand why someone would want to pay all that money for an 850 when they won't use a fraction of the capability. Why not buy a reliable (but not even top of the line) PCIe3.0x4 device for a fraction of the dough?

But different people see things differently...

 

[Sharky II]

Because - as stated - when I purchase an M1 Ultra-Max-Super-Pro Mac Mini Pro, it will become a super-fast data drive hooked up via thunderbolt. And the price difference between the drives is not that huge (around £20).

So, is anybody aware if it works well on the 5,1 Mac Pro?

 

[Macschrauber]

People, the dumb adapter is totally irrelevant.

its just an adapter like HDMI to Mini HDMI.

under some circumstances having two identical NVMe blades could lead into a problem.

but technically a dumb PCIe NVMe carrier is just adapting the NVMe Socket to the PCIe socket. All what communicates is on the NVMe itself.

 

[Fastsavage]

Update:

With KRYO and 970 Eve Plus (new model with Samsung In-House controller I get around 1500mb/s so all good and happy with those speeds for what I need.

Actually - it might have the pheonix controller, is there anyway to tell what controller it is? - I assumed Samsung in-house but their data sheets keep changing

 

[macaddress]

1tb 980pro on a 4x PCIe adapter. I get 600mb/s in the 4x slot, 1500mb/s in the 16x slot. Whats amiss when others are getting those speeds in the 4x slot?

 

[Melbourne Park]

1tb 980pro on a 4x PCIe adapter. I get 600mb/s in the 4x slot, 1500mb/s in the 16x slot. Whats amiss when others are getting those speeds in the 4x slot?

Have you tried the other x4 slot?

The bottleneck on the 16x slot would be the card - the card itself being only 4 channels itself (and despite its type 4 bus capability these PCIe buses are only type 2), so it's only capable after overhead reductions from the 4x500 = 2,000 speed (then less overhead) 1500 or so ...

So there is nothing wrong with the card. So I presumed it's related to the particular PCIe slot?

Is the card getting very hot in the x4 slot? Heat can slow down these cards and even kill them.

I am very far from an expert though ... I don't know how to test a slot's performance either.

 

[joevt]

1tb 980pro on a 4x PCIe adapter. I get 600mb/s in the 4x slot, 1500mb/s in the 16x slot. Whats amiss when others are getting those speeds in the 4x slot?

Do you have a MacPro3,1? The x4 slots are limited to PCIe 1.0 speed (2.5 GT/s).
Do you have a MacPro5,1 with old firmware? The x4 slot may be connecting at PCIe 1.0 speed (2.5 GT/s) which results in < 800 MB/s speed.

For MacPro3,1 : For the x16 slots that support PCIe 2.0 speed (5 GT/s), a PCIe 3.0 or newer device may connect as PCIe 1.0. There are some workaround suggestions at https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro-3-1-nvme-support-upgrade-guide-questions.2194878/

For MacPro5,1 : a similar problem may exist for all the slots. Update the firmware https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-bootrom-upgrade-instructions-thread.2142418/

1600 MB/s is expected for a PCIE 2.0 speed (5 GT/s).
You can get a x8 or x16 card with a PCIe 3.0 switch for 3500 MB/s.
You can get a x16 card with PCIe 4.0 switch for 6000 MB/s.
I don't think there are any cards with a PCIe 5.0 switch but they wouldn't be very useful in a PCIe 2.0 slot unless the slot was x32 or the PCIe device was x2.

Use AmorphousDiskMark.app which has higher benchmark results so you can measure more closely the limit of the PCIe connection.

 

[tsialex]

For MacPro5,1 : a similar problem may exist for all the slots. Update the firmware https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-bootrom-upgrade-instructions-thread.2142418/

MacPro5,1 slots 3 and 4 are shared by a PCIe v2.0 switch (the 4 shared lanes are from the south bridge) and both are 5GT/s by default, not being affected by the earlier firmware versions enabling PCIe v2.0 only for Apple PCIe cards. This was always a limitation of slots 1 and 2 only and before 138.0.0.0.0, we always installed PCIe blades with slots 3 and 4 to get the ~1500MB/s throughput.

If @macaddress have a MacPro5,1, his problem is something else and not the earlier EFI releases. Also, he probably already have a post 138.0.0.0.0 EFI version or he wouldn't get ~1500MB/s with the number 1 and 2 slots.

 

[joevt]

MacPro5,1 slots 3 and 4 are shared by a PCIe v2.0 switch (the 4 shared lanes are from the south bridge) and both are 5GT/s by default, not being affected by the earlier firmware versions enabling PCIe v2.0 only for Apple PCIe cards. This was always a limitation of slots 1 and 2 only and before 138.0.0.0.0, we always installed PCIe blades with slots 3 and 4 to get the ~1500MB/s throughput.

If @macaddress have a MacPro5,1, his problem is something else and not the earlier EFI releases. Also, he probably already have a post 138.0.0.0.0 EFI version or he wouldn't get ~1500MB/s with the number 1 and 2 slots.

I guess we need a screenshot of the PCI tab in System Information.app for the 980 Pro to see if there's a problem with the link speed (expecting 5 GT/s but only getting 2.5 GT/s) or with the link width (2 lanes instead of 4). I think the first problem is more likely.

 

[Melbourne Park]

I don't think our page 1 lists the Samsung 980 Pro as being compatible, but Sonnet says it works on their quad RAID card so I presume the 980 Pro card is not in itself an issue, and since its working well in the x16 slot, then now worries with it I guess.

I've thought of getting a Samsung 980 Pro 1 TB for my boot card because its type 4 compatible and hence might be worth something if I wanted to sell it. They are also likely to run cooler than 970 Ev Plus cards as well, and IMO their design would suit an OS boot card. However .... the 980 Pro costs 40% more than type 3 alternative cards ... and is even more expensive than a Hynix P31.

Does anybody know how many RAIDs disk utility can run? ie can disk utility setup two separate RAIDs on the 5,1?