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liveexpo

macrumors member
Aug 19, 2006
61
0
I suggest visiting the NPPA website, and check out the still photography award winners and tons of other information on a "boring" subject. :)

Agreed. And its the ability of the photographer to create an interesting image out of a situation while it happens - not simply during the post processing. *Although i do PP, so its not a swipe at those who do*. The point that the great majority of the worlds finest Photojournalism has been recorded using film before the days of advanced PS techniques, is testament to this fact.

A picture is dynamic for its content and composition more so than for its dynamic range.

** I will add though that of course I'm not suggesting there was never any manipulation done to film images over the past 150+ years - just not to the extent and ease which it can be done today.
 

pdxflint

macrumors 68020
Aug 25, 2006
2,407
14
Oregon coast
Thats kinda like saying all those Micheal Jackson trials never really happened because all people saw where courtroom sketches. I don't understand how adding in any type of post proccesing effect to a photo negates the reality of its occurance. "Documentary-Style" is just that-- a style. I dont think this means restricting all photo journalism to such standards.

I really like what your doing valdore. Ironically, I had also taken a slew of protest photos recently, one of which was actually published in the Long Beach City paper (which i post processed in HDR):

2368762205_a83ccdbfa9_o.jpg

I don't quite get your analogy about Michael Jackson... but I'm sure if someone took a picture of the courtroom front steps, and then photoshopped in a separate picture of MJ to make it appear as if he had actually been on the scene, it might make cool art, but would get you fired in a heartbeat from any newspaper, and probably banned from the industry (small world, and word gets around about folks cheating, which is what it is in this imaginary case.)

Now, no one ever said post-processing was unacceptable in photojournalism. In fact, it's very common. Photos have to be reproduced in print, which requires considerable custom PP for whatever printing setup is used. Is it newprint? Is it slick magazine print? Is it just for the web? etc. etc. Also, cropping is employed, adjusting the contrast, brightness, color correction, etc. cleaning up crap like dust (not so much anymore.) dodging and burning if neccessary. HDR is just a post-processing technique. It isn't a style. Nobody is saying that HDR is forbidden, or bad. In fact, the only reason Valdore's "news" photo was discussed was because it was exactly that - a "news" photo. He is still free to colorize it, go full-bore HDR on it, posterize it, blur it, distort it in any way he wants to, because it is HIS picture. It's not really photojournalism unless it's being sold that way. Also it doesn't actually change what happened, as was also mentioned. It's my opinion that heavy application of HDR to the point of it being obvious, even to the casual viewer, is generally going to be disallowed in the field of photojournalism. HDR, or any other method to improve the dynamic range of a photo, especially with digital cameras, as long as it's not noticeable and not obvious as a "style" is clearly not in violation of the principle of journalistic integrity. :)
 

thinkband

macrumors regular
Dec 22, 2007
160
0
I'm glad you prefer whatever you prefer - it's definitely why art in all it's various forms can find fans and consumers. Certainly I am not going to discredit Valdore's work, or style, as he is very good at what he does. However, any artist should be comfortable with feedback, including negative. Sure, art is primarily the vision of the artist, but in the end in order to be recognized as "good" or "bad" it requires opinions of the public. Some artists make money, some don't. It isn't really a matter of "quality" because art is a subjective concept. It would take a lot of space to even start on the subject of what art is. A monkey scribbling doodles, then it becomes somehow collectible. Art collectors compete to own pieces, thus legitimizing the "art." But, is it really the art itself, or the cultural interest in the art expressed by a celebrity-obsessed culture. Are a famous person's photographs better than a non-famous person's? Which would be more collectible? Why? Are photos of famous people more interesting than ordinary people? Are they more marketable, more valuable? Is documentary/photojournalism ever considered art? Of course it is, if it can be seen as having a certain merit socially and historically and stylistically. But there are inherent limitations in the "creative license" of anything considered journalism - to not deceive, to not manipulate the truth, however boring you might consider that. There are reasons why photojournalists who couldn't help themselves by spicing up their images ended up fired - even something like posing the subjects for an "improved" version of a photo they already had captured "live." It's all about integrity in photojournalism - the truth. Cameras can always lie by omission, life can be modified by use of composition techniques and wide-angle/telephoto views, but at least the notion that the images reflect what it was like. Post processing is certainly allowed, but if every picture in a newspaper suddenly began having dramatic skies and obvious "style sheets" imposed on the look of the pictures, people would become suspicious that underneath all of this beauty on the page perhaps something was added, or removed. It's a slippery slope, but primarily applies to photojournalism - not art or commercial photography.

If photojournalism bores you, you haven't really looked at much of it. National Geographic certainly comes to mind. Good, strong photojournalism can be among the most compelling and touching images out there. The problem is that it is becoming a dying "art." Basic shots on deadline, run as small and b/w, grip 'n grins for local public relations in small communities, high school activities (ordinary life...) often only interesting to those in the pictures. Local city council meetings. High school sports in dark gyms, rodeo queen inaugurations in small towns. Yes, most of this can be very boring to the non-participants or non-locals. Yet, in the hands of a good photojournalist who is given the space and time to compose a multi-photo feature, you can also find magic. It's not easy, but I contend that if done the right way, photojournalism is far from boring. It's about using those tools of curiosity, attention to detail, superb composition given the circumstances, "being there" so you can be there, knowing enough about the subject to make pictures that make sense, not just look pretty. I was in a landscape gallery in Sedona Arizona a few years ago, and the photos were absolutely gorgeous. The large prints cost several thousand dollars, and were stunning in their light and detail. But, after spending a half-hour in the gallery, suddenly, and without warning... I became bored. Too much candy. Too much of the same thing. I needed the pictures to be about something unique, but they were all about the same subject - landscape and light. Extremely well done, of course. But my taste buds were de-sensitized.
However, exhibits on photojournalism I've seen, from the University of Arizona to the University of Texas to the Portland Art Museum to exhibits from the National Press Photographers Association have left me captivated. I suggest visiting the NPPA website, and check out the still photography award winners and tons of other information on a "boring" subject. :)

By no means was I suggesting that criticism is inappropriate. I am sure every photographer on this forum is open for constructive criticism.

I was merely giving a different perspective on the HDR argument. I have read some opinions on the subject that HDR 'ruins' the picture and 'takes away from the original picture.' If this was a model posing for Cover Girl, then sure I think she would not like her picture in HDR to show her bad acne that she was trying to hide with makeup and use of soft lights. But see, this is a picture of protestors. When you look at them, they aren't attractive and that is true. But, are they trying to be attractive? If I was going to protest Women's rights, I do not think I would put on makeup and do my hair, I would go out as myself. Actually, if I looked good protesting, I would think that people would not care about the cause because they did not feel sorry for me.

Take homeless people for example. Are they worried about looking nice while they beg for money? The more people feel sorry for you, the more willing they will be to spot you a dollar. These protestors may not look particularly good in this image, but I bet if this image cycled through the news, a few more people would pay more attention to the current events and it could possibly even motivate some to do something about it. To me, it is a much stronger shot in HDR then as it was shot originally.

In regards to my comment about most photojournalism being boring, I did not mean that in a derogatory way. I think we can agree that any style of photography can get boring if we see the same sort of pictures all the time. Take sunsets for example. don't you get bored of seeing hundreds and hundreds of sunsets? That is what is so good about the picture of the day thread: Different people post different styles of images, and it makes for an educational and fascinating way to spend one's time. If I saw Valdore's original image, I would look at it for a few seconds and move on to the next image, but the HDR adds extra emotion that was in these protestors' faces when he shot it. HDR simply brought out the emotion; I do not think it changed the meaning of the image.

My point about Monet and numerous Dada artists in reference to art is that often those who start a new trend lead themselves to greatness. I took a few extensive art history classes during school. I remember looking at one Christian image, after another Christian image, after another. They all had Jesus or Mary (Maybe Joseph) in them, and Jesus always had a Halo. Sure these images were all well done and interesting for a little while, but they are quite boring if you need to see thirty of them at a time. I remember seeing my first Chiaroscuro image and I thought it was so cool, because so many of the paintings I have been viewing have been the same for so long. Since I am merely a college student, I guess I have a more lively taste than the classic photographers out there, so seeing a photo that really catches my eye and has a meaning is far more interesting than a photo that has the meaning but none of the eye candy.
 

thinkband

macrumors regular
Dec 22, 2007
160
0
But anways, I need to go to bed so I guess the conversation will need to finish without me. My contribution:

275652530_U5ZCM-L.jpg
 

pdxflint

macrumors 68020
Aug 25, 2006
2,407
14
Oregon coast
Sagebrush country

Southeastern Oregon somewhere north of Steens Mountain, and west of the Alvord Desert and south of Burns. Don't get lost getting there... ;)

SCN0063.jpg


Canon EOS 630
Canon 28-80 w/yellow filter
Illford HP5 + film
 

reimerd10

macrumors newbie
May 20, 2007
19
0
Raven

Taken a couple hundred miles north of Yellowknife, NWT, CA while driving.
 

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srf4real

macrumors 68040
Jul 25, 2006
3,001
26
paradise beach FL
Go big or go home.

Easter11.jpg

Lumix L1 + ZD 70-300mm
f/10, ISO 250, 1/500 sec.

edit: I recall cloning out a big obnoxious head in the bottom center of this one... good thing Aperture won't work like this in real life...:p;):cool:
 

Carl Abudephane

macrumors 6502
Nov 15, 2007
416
0
Southeastern Oregon somewhere north of Steens Mountain, and west of the Alvord Desert and south of Burns. Don't get lost getting there... ;)

This is lovely, and it 'resonates', with a wonderful quality of mystery, and reflection.

One handheld RAW // HDR // Shutter: 1/50 // Aperture: f.7.0 // Focal Length: 17 mm // ISO 100

Love this Eric. All the colours baby, and the shapes, lines, points of interest and sheer, unadulterated, vision.
 

theenigmat

macrumors member
May 10, 2006
54
0
Frank Lloyd Wright's Waterdome

This is the Waterdome on my campus envisioned by Frank Lloyd Wright and completed last year. In the back left is Annie Pfeiffer Chapel, one his many amazing structures on the campus.



2399418389_bd91a38ea0_b.jpg




One handheld RAW...HDR...1/250...f/8.0...ISO 100...10mm...(16mm equiv.)



Valdore: I enjoy the photojournalist approach you're taking. I think HDR could certainly find its way into that field.
 
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