Resolved Power to garage is dead what to do?

[bunnspecial]

I'm sure some things can be "grandfathered" in, such as 2-prong instead of 3-prong outlets, but I wouldn't think obvious safety issues would make the cut. I don't think all the crazy panels and sub-panels sharing fuses would be allowed to pass. And if it's true that the garage is powered off of a cable that plugs into and outlet in the house then runs underground, that most certainly wouldn't pass anything.

My grandmother's house just sold about a month ago(she passed away last year). It was built in the 1950s, and still had a lot of the original electric work. There were two prong outlets throughout the main floor, although she had breaker panel installed about 15 years ago. When the basement was finished a few years later it was all done with 3 prong running new circuits off the box-i.e. done as it should have been. Somewhere along the way, a falling branch during a storm also took out the main service going into the roof, and at the time the electric company re-routed it underground and into the main panel(in the basement).

The 2 prongs upstairs passed inspection last month just fine, although I'm sure the basement wouldn't have if it had been jerry-rigged(i.e. wired into existing circuits in the old fuse box).

 

[MacNut]

Can't a house be grandfathered in? My house was built in the 60s and has 2 prong outlets on the main floor (3 prong in the more recently refinished basement and kitchen). I'm pretty sure code today requires grounded outlets, but I'm under the assumption my house was grandfathered in because it passed inspection when I bought it in 2013.

Sure wiring that was at code when it was done will be grandfathered in. Like 2 prong plugs and tube and wire. If any upgrades are done to the house you have to bring everything up to code. Having sub panels branch off of a fuse socket would not pass an inspection.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Several of us in this thread have known this poster(MatthewLTL) from the PowerPC Mac forum for a long time.

If we were taking bets on this thread being real or not, I'd bet on it being real...and I'd probably win less money for taking that bet than I did betting on American Pharoah to win the Belmont yesterday(FWIW, my $5 win bet returned $8).

I'd be willing to be a substantial amount of money, even invaluable items (like my life), that everything said by our OP is quite "real", or at least real to him. There is no question in my mind of this at this point.

This is not trolling, a bored teenager seeking attention, or a Hieverone-like personality. This is the real deal.

 

[MatthewLTL]

I was actually wrong about the wiring. I inspected it further. The only fuse the garage is connected to inside the house is the main 60A cartrige fuses. The power for the garage connects directly up the the main wires coming inside the house from the meter, it then runs underground to an independant breaker panel in the garage.

The A/C is wired in the same fashion. HOWEVER instead of the A/C being wired from the MAIN panel with the main fuses, it is branched out of the independant fuse box to the clothes dryer. JUST LIKE THE GARAGE, the 240V line going to the AC, is connected to the MAIN wires (from the power meter) before the fuses for the dryer are even used. The A/C also has it's own independant Cartrige fuses outside. wiring wise its completly up to code. When my great-grandparents bought this house in '96 my grandpa replaced the 2 prong outlets the important ones) with 3 prong ones. The previous owners had the fridge powered with a 3 prong adaptor, My grandpa, not thinking that was safe, removed the outlet and put in a 3 prong one. the clothes washer to this day is still running on a 2 prong outlt with a 3 prong adaptor. I had to replace one outlet in the living room several years ago as it either failed or being that it was a 4 plug outlet (rather than have 2 plugs it had 4) i replaced it for a 3 prong one. The second outlet I replaced was in my bedroom the outlet died and i had to replace it.

The kitchen isn't powered by a power strip. The entire kitchen is on one circuit, most the lights in the house are on another circuit, the living room is on it's own circuit and the bedrooms are one another circuit. Not sure which circuit the upstairs is on though. the basement i believe is a mixture of all four (for example if the fuse for the lights blow 1/4 of the lights in the basement also go dead, the clothes dryer is on the kitchen outlet circuit all but two outlest in the basement are 2 prong i would say 3/4 of the outlets in the house had 3 prong when it was bought. I put 3 prong outlets on 1/2 of that. The ONLY room left in the house with 2 prong outlets is the basement.

The extension cord was never said to be a safe or even a WISE idea, the garage needs power and at the moment that is the only option UNTIL we can afford to get it fixed.

 

[shinji]

You might be able to get a loan to help out with the electrical work. The FHA does have programs for that http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/housing/sfh/title/sfixhs

At the very least, find an electrician to give you a free estimate so you know exactly what's wrong and the total cost to fix all of this.

 

[samiwas]

I was actually wrong about the wiring. I inspected it further. The only fuse the garage is connected to inside the house is the main 60A cartrige fuses. The power for the garage connects directly up the the main wires coming inside the house from the meter, it then runs underground to an independant breaker panel in the garage.

Wait, you're saying two different things here:
- The garage is connected to a 60A fuse
- The garage is connected directly to the wires from the meter, then runs underground (apparently no fuse).

Which one is it?

And what is the gauge of the wire running underground?

The A/C is wired in the same fashion. HOWEVER instead of the A/C being wired from the MAIN panel with the main fuses, it is branched out of the independant fuse box to the clothes dryer. JUST LIKE THE GARAGE, the 240V line going to the AC, is connected to the MAIN wires (from the power meter) before the fuses for the dryer are even used. The A/C also has it's own independant Cartrige fuses outside. wiring wise its completly up to code.

Eh, I'd have to see a diagram or get more detail. This doesn't sound very code at all.

 

[MatthewLTL]

Wait, you're saying two different things here:
- The garage is connected to a 60A fuse
- The garage is connected directly to the wires from the meter, then runs underground (apparently no fuse).

Which one is it?

And what is the gauge of the wire running underground?




Eh, I'd have to see a diagram or get more detail. This doesn't sound very code at all.

By law the garage would HAVE to be connected to the main fuse coming in. The power service coming in is 60A service (hence the main fuses for the house are 60A)

The wire running underground into the garage (as well as ALL wiring in the house is identical to this:

The main wires (from the meter also to the range) look like this:

 

[MacNut]

The Dryer and Range should be at 30 amps a piece. The garage should be, if up to code, lights 15, outlets 20, to take into account power tools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

 

[MatthewLTL]

The Dryer and Range should be at 30 amps a piece. The garage should be, if up to code, lights 15, outlets 20, to take into account power tools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

We have 15 amp outlets on 20Amp circuits. But you are correct. Range AND dryer are 30A a piece, the extension cord running to the garage is powered by an outlet that was wired to ONE of the 30A sides for the dryer.

 

[samiwas]

By law the garage would HAVE to be connected to the main fuse coming in. The power service coming in is 60A service (hence the main fuses for the house are 60A)

The wire running underground into the garage (as well as ALL wiring in the house is identical to this:

The main wires (from the meter also to the range) look like this:

You said "like this" and posted two very different pictures.

So now, is the wire running underground to the garage like the yellow wires in the first picture? Is it just one wire? And it's connected directly to the 60A main?

 

[MatthewLTL]

You said "like this" and posted two very different pictures.

So now, is the wire running underground to the garage like the yellow wires in the first picture? Is it just one wire? And it's connected directly to the 60A main?

The 1st wire is the kind this house has 12 gauge i believe 3 wires, and the same kind rand to the garage.
The second picture show how beefy the wires from the meter are.

 

[A.Goldberg]

My grandmother's house just sold about a month ago(she passed away last year). It was built in the 1950s, and still had a lot of the original electric work. There were two prong outlets throughout the main floor, although she had breaker panel installed about 15 years ago. When the basement was finished a few years later it was all done with 3 prong running new circuits off the box-i.e. done as it should have been. Somewhere along the way, a falling branch during a storm also took out the main service going into the roof, and at the time the electric company re-routed it underground and into the main panel(in the basement).

The 2 prongs upstairs passed inspection last month just fine, although I'm sure the basement wouldn't have if it had been jerry-rigged(i.e. wired into existing circuits in the old fuse box).

I had this old apartment in the Fenway area of Boston a few years ago. It was a beautiful building from the late 1800's, but the electrical work was ancient. One day an electrician came through the building to check on things. He said "I'm here to check your GFCI's", I laughed and said "there are none, we don't even have three pronged outlets". He said "alright, where is the breaker box", and I had to tell him we still had fuses.

 

[samiwas]

The 1st wire is the kind this house has 12 gauge i believe 3 wires, and the same kind rand to the garage.
The second picture show how beefy the wires from the meter are.

So, you have one 12-guage romex run underground connected to a 60A fuse and feeding a breaker box with four breakers between 15A and 20A?

 

[D.T.]

I had this old apartment in the Fenway area of Boston a few years ago. It was a beautiful building from the late 1800's, but the electrical work was ancient. One day an electrician came through the building to check on things. He said "I'm here to check your GFCI's", I laughed and said "there are none, we don't even have three pronged outlets". He said "alright, where is the breaker box", and I had to tell him we still had fuses.

Funny. I owned a house (about 15 years ago) in the very old, historical area of Riverside that was built in the late 20s. It had been added to at least twice, some of the older rooms had 2 prong plugs, and the electrical lines in the original attic space were wires strung between ceramic connectors.

I remember the inspector coming out from underneath and saying something to effect of: "Well, there's, umm, several different types of support structures in place, but I guess it's been standing for 75 years, so who am I to question it"

 

[MatthewLTL]

I had this old apartment in the Fenway area of Boston a few years ago. It was a beautiful building from the late 1800's, but the electrical work was ancient. One day an electrician came through the building to check on things. He said "I'm here to check your GFCI's", I laughed and said "there are none, we don't even have three pronged outlets". He said "alright, where is the breaker box", and I had to tell him we still had fuses.

I had the assumption that if a house/apartment is being RENTED it had to be up to code vs a house bought and lived in by the owner where electrical can be "grandfathered" in.

So, you have one 12-guage romex run underground connected to a 60A fuse and feeding a breaker box with four breakers between 15A and 20A?

Pretty much. I wouldn't be able to begin rewiring any of the house.

 

[samiwas]

Pretty much. I wouldn't be able to begin rewiring any of the house.

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ on a Ritz Cracker.

There is nothing even close to code about that. Not now, not ever in the history of electrical wiring. Even electrical engineers in King Tut's day would have said no to that. A 12AWG wire connected to a 60A fuse then run underground? There is nothing even remotely safe about it. No wonder your garage isn't working. You are lucky as hell no one has been electrocuted in your house and yard.

 

[MatthewLTL]

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ on a Ritz Cracker.

There is nothing even close to code about that. Not now, not ever in the history of electrical wiring. Even electrical engineers in King Tut's day would have said no to that. A 12AWG wire connected to a 60A fuse then run underground? There is nothing even remotely safe about it. No wonder your garage isn't working. You are lucky as hell no one has been electrocuted in your house and yard.

correct me if i am wrong but breaker/fuse Subpanels are not illegal, Centeral A/C units have sub panels, Dryers have subpanels and so do Furnaces.....

 

[samiwas]

correct me if i am wrong but breaker/fuse Subpanels are not illegal, Centeral A/C units have sub panels, Dryers have subpanels and so do Furnaces.....

The word "subpanel" did not appear anywhere in my post which you quoted. I never said subpanels were illegal or wrong.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Funny. I owned a house (about 15 years ago) in the very old, historical area of Riverside that was built in the late 20s. It had been added to at least twice, some of the older rooms had 2 prong plugs, and the electrical lines in the original attic space were wires strung between ceramic connectors.

I remember the inspector coming out from underneath and saying something to effect of: "Well, there's, umm, several different types of support structures in place, but I guess it's been standing for 75 years, so who am I to question it"

Riverside as in Newton? That's a nice area. D-Line represent...!

Boston certainly has some interesting building methods. I've seen some interesting wiring and structural solutions. Even the T underground still has some ancient looking wiring in the tunnels underground. I'm not sure if all of that is still used though.

I had the assumption that if a house/apartment is being RENTED it had to be up to code vs a house bought and lived in by the owner where electrical can be "grandfathered" in.
Pretty much. I wouldn't be able to begin rewiring any of the house.

I believe any new construction or renovation must follow the proper codes. In terms of renting, I think there are separate requirements based on the city/town/county you are in. I've seen plenty of apartments in Boston with two prong outlets, so I can't imagine that is a requirement.

 

[bunnspecial]

Funny. I owned a house (about 15 years ago) in the very old, historical area of Riverside that was built in the late 20s. It had been added to at least twice, some of the older rooms had 2 prong plugs, and the electrical lines in the original attic space were wires strung between ceramic connectors.

Knob and tube("wires strung between plugs) is actually okay as long as the "knobs" are in good shape along with the insulation where the wires do come into contact. There's also a big caveat with it in that when it was installed, the typical house used a lot less current than the typical house does now, so you absolutely have to keep within its original design constraints(and not put oversize fuses in it).

It has some inherent advantage in that the separated and exposed wires can theoretically stay a lot cooler than insulated wires in close contact, although modern, properly sized Romex is 100 times easier to install and also is a lot more "idiot proof" in installation.

BTW, I know enough about home wiring to know that I don't want anyone but an electrician touching it!

 

[MatthewLTL]

You might be able to get a loan to help out with the electrical work. The FHA does have programs for that http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/housing/sfh/title/sfixhs

At the very least, find an electrician to give you a free estimate so you know exactly what's wrong and the total cost to fix all of this.

I did talk to an electrition today who would look it over for free. Since the line runs underground, it would be under $100 to fix, however the guy said he would do the same thing i would, dig the wire up, splice it and bury it.

 

[yg17]

I did talk to an electrition today who would look it over for free. Since the line runs underground, it would be under $100 to fix, however the guy said he would do the same thing i would, dig the wire up, splice it and bury it.

Sounds like you didn't talk to a certified electrician that cares about the quality of their work and safety of their clients.

 

[MatthewLTL]

It was a qualified electrition he have me his card. he said being burried it doesn't really matter anyway

 

[koa]

Well, if he had a card...

 

[Grey Beard]

Matt,
If you are still striving to resolve the issue, just cut the cable and let the bloody thing sail away into the sunset.
KGB