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rkuo

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2010
1,308
955
I just saw this now, but a day after my post an analyst (@dsccross) supposedly leaked Micro OLED specs for the headset in this tweet:



I'm very curious what specs like this could mean. What else to compare these displays to other than the use of the XDR.
4000 PPI is not a comparable metric to the Pro Display XDR in this case because it's referring to the physical specs of the OLED panel. But the panel is almost directly against your eye and not at a normal monitor viewing distance.

A more relevant user focused metric would be "arc minutes" or "degrees" per pixel. This is not a commonly quoted metric.

As a rough proxy for pixels you would need to simulate a Pro Display XDR in VR, you could take note of how many degrees of FOV your monitor occupies in front of you at a normal viewing distance. It's probably between 30-45 degrees. Then note than FOV of a VR device would be around 110 degrees ... so 110/40 = 2.75. Then 2.75 ^2 = 7.56. So 7.56 times the pixels of an XDR to display the same device in VR.

Then note to simulate the "pixel" grid perfection of a retina display on another display that isn't aligned perfectly, you need something like 4x the pixels again to get rid of most aliasing effects.

The "degrees per pixel" equivalence also falls off if you like moving your head forward to squint at pixels ... so do you want to account for that worst case in your specs?

Then on top of that we want all the low persistence and low latency and high refresh rates that makes VR comfortable ... and we want basic specs like brightness and contrast and gamut to be as good as we've gotten accustomed to.

There's huge room for improvement when it comes to VR displays. It will be interesting to see how far Apple will move the bar forward, but it's hard to believe they will be anywhere close to perfection.
 
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- rob -

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Apr 18, 2012
1,030
705
Oakland, CA
Thanks for that feedback @rkuo. By this estimate, excluding handling the demand would be something like:

7.56 * 20,358,144 * 4 ~= 615,630,274 pixels

Where 20,358,144 is XDR's native 6016x3384 resolution.

I had thought I read the panels were believed to be 4000 x 4000. No idea if this is summed due to one for each eye? But then it would be only 16,000,000 pixels total across the displays.

I'm not sure if this mathestimate is even worthwhile, there's also a potential foveated display to take into account.

Apple isn't big on specs comparisons anyway, preferring to focus on the experience. For example, benchmarks not reflecting what its like to use Apple Silicon powered macbooks.

@joevt curious if you have feedback on @rkuo's back of the envelope calculations here or overall questions I've raised RE: Reality virtual displays vs Studio and or XDR Pro.
 

jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
I think there are such an incredible number of variables in play that even delving into the world of pixels per solid angle won't really give a good indication of perceived detail.

The biggest separator is that when you move your head around a Pro Display XDR, you're in continuous space so you're looking at actual pixels - when you're moving your head around a virtual Pro Display XDR - your head is being tracked with floating point numbers, which can be thought of as a sort of variable 3D grid introducing aliasing, and also you're viewing the 2D grid of pixels via a separate 2D grid of pixels, which will not line up perfectly - i.e. if you imagine looking at pixel 0, 0 on your XDR, you're literally looking at pixel 0, 0 - on a virtual screen, pixel 0, 0 on your virtual display might map to pixel 258.3538, 538.5839 on your headset's display, which will again cause aliasing and blur due to having to average at least 4 virtual pixels per real pixel.

Foveated rendering will absolutely help the headset render such high pixel counts, but it shouldn't affect your perceived detail since hopefully where you're looking will be rendered at 100% resolution.

Mathematically speaking, you literally need an infinite number of pixels to truly replicate the experience of looking at a physical computer monitor - but fortunately we don't need to replicate it properly, we only need to approximate it enough to satisfy our human vision - and who knows how many pixels or which techniques that's going to require. It could be half a billion, or maybe if you get the optics and algorithms correct you'll need far fewer than that.
 
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rkuo

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2010
1,308
955
Apple Vision Pro brings mac desktops into the product at a "4k" display. No mention of HDR.
They said 23 million pixels across both eyes ... so we're looking at roughly 4000 x 3000 per eye.
 

gugy

macrumors 68040
Jan 31, 2005
3,929
5,377
La Jolla, CA
Bummed out about no new XDR and no drop in price for the current XDR.
I'm puzzled at the VisonPro at $3.5k and a potential substitute for a monitor. I wonder if that tech can be groundbreaking at doing design work using Adobe apps, etc. Also, how comfortable would be diving into that world?
I guess we need to wait and see.
 

paulchiu

macrumors 6502
Feb 26, 2009
423
356
nyc
Only thing that really interest me is the 3D content playing capability. With Disney+ on board and perhaps the ability to play personal 3D movie content. Vision Pro maybe a capable 3D projector replacement. At least for one.
 

Pippi

macrumors newbie
Oct 6, 2022
8
5
With all the development, trial and error of running these beautiful displays on PCs - can anyone let me know what should I look for if I want to connect 3 XDR displays with a maximum of 2 TS3/4 cables from a PC?
I'm thinking 1 cable goes to a Caldigit TS4 dock (where 2 displays are connected), and the other to the third display (somehow).
Any motherboard/setup that is suitable for this?
 

etc

macrumors regular
Sep 27, 2008
235
50
With all the development, trial and error of running these beautiful displays on PCs - can anyone let me know what should I look for if I want to connect 3 XDR displays with a maximum of 2 TS3/4 cables from a PC?
I'm thinking 1 cable goes to a Caldigit TS4 dock (where 2 displays are connected), and the other to the third display (somehow).
Any motherboard/setup that is suitable for this?
You can connect as many displays as many usb-c + displayport muxers you can get. And your GPU has to support DSC, that's it.
It will be a cable mess, but it should work.
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,974
4,262
You can connect as many displays as many usb-c + displayport muxers you can get. And your GPU has to support DSC, that's it.
It will be a cable mess, but it should work.
Pippi wants to use all three displays at once using 2 Thunderbolt cables. DisplayPort muxers are switches that let you connect one of something to one of something else.

An MST hub cannot support two XDR at 6K60 so that's out of the question.

Do any integrated graphics solutions support 3 XDR displays? I think for Intel, Tiger Lake supports DSC and 3 displays but I don't think it can support three 6K displays?

I've never looked at AMD integrated graphics and I don't know which AMD motherboards allow Thunderbolt. I don't think they ever tell you all the limits of a GPU. They might tell you it can support 3 displays but it won't tell you if they all can be 6K60.

Your best bet is a discrete GPU that supports DSC and has at least 3 DisplayPort ports (or 2 DisplayPort ports and a USB-C port) and a motherboard that supports a Thunderbolt 3 or Thunderbolt 4 add-in card or has two DisplayPort inputs.
 

etc

macrumors regular
Sep 27, 2008
235
50
Pippi wants to use all three displays at once using 2 Thunderbolt cables. DisplayPort muxers are switches that let you connect one of something to one of something else.

An MST hub cannot support two XDR at 6K60 so that's out of the question.

Do any integrated graphics solutions support 3 XDR displays? I think for Intel, Tiger Lake supports DSC and 3 displays but I don't think it can support three 6K displays?

I've never looked at AMD integrated graphics and I don't know which AMD motherboards allow Thunderbolt. I don't think they ever tell you all the limits of a GPU. They might tell you it can support 3 displays but it won't tell you if they all can be 6K60.

Your best bet is a discrete GPU that supports DSC and has at least 3 DisplayPort ports (or 2 DisplayPort ports and a USB-C port) and a motherboard that supports a Thunderbolt 3 or Thunderbolt 4 add-in card or has two DisplayPort inputs.
But why only 2? :rolleyes: If the reason is the price of Apple TB3 cable, it should not be a problem - a cheap USB-C cable does it's magic.

I'd go with AMD GPU with onboard USB-C output (one direct connection to XDR) + 2 usb-c + DP muxers in any combination (PCI-E, Wacom adapter, or even with tricky onboard TB controller). But these require 3 cables at least.
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,974
4,262
But why only 2? :rolleyes: If the reason is the price of Apple TB3 cable, it should not be a problem - a cheap USB-C cable does it's magic.
Probably not a price thing if 3 XDR displays are involved. Plus, those displays come with Thunderbolt cables that should also work as USB-C cables?

I'd go with AMD GPU with onboard USB-C output (one direct connection to XDR) + 2 usb-c + DP muxers in any combination (PCI-E, Wacom adapter, or even with tricky onboard TB controller). But these require 3 cables at least.
I was confused by the word muxer. I thought you meant a switch, but you are talking about a cable or adapter that combines USB+DisplayPort to USB-C. I think these can count as a single cable if the "muxing" happens near the computer instead of near the display. For example, Thunderbolt add-in cards (Alpine Ridge, Titan Ridge, Maple Ridge) use a short DisplayPort cable for their DisplayPort input and the Titan Ridge and Maple Ridge use an internal USB 2.0 connection for their USB 2.0 input (USB 3.x comes from the Thunderbolt controller). The Sunix UPD2018 has a single DisplayPort input and USB comes from its ASM1142. It's a little simpler/cheaper than a Thunderbolt add-in card.

Sunix has a new card UPA2015 that supports HBR3 but that's not required for XDR or Apple Studio Display. It uses a ASM3142 which will give full 10 Gbps USB in a PCIe gen 3 slot instead of the 8 Gbps of the ASM1142. Might be nice to convert one of these cards so that an external USB 3.x connection can be used instead of the USB connection from the controller. That way it wouldn't need a PCIe connection to do USB. Instead the PCIe connector is used just to power the card with an externally powered PCIe riser like this: https://hardforum.com/threads/use-usb-c-monitor-without-usb-c.1911817/post-1043937319
It would basically be this: https://www.bizlinktech.com/products/detail/1332/VirtualLink™+Interface+Adapter without VirtualLink mode or the Power Delivery.
I thought the VirtualLink Adapter never existed but saw a mention on twitter
but it costs $350?? https://www.xtal.pro/product/virtuallink-adapter .
There's also this: https://unboundxr.eu/virtuallink-interface-adapter
 
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thosmatthews

macrumors regular
Apr 20, 2021
107
258
Hi all,

I bought a Pro Display XDR this month (I know there are some that will I should have waited but I've come from an iMac 27" 2013 which needed replacing) – It arrived today and whilst I'm 99% happy with it, I've noticed the glass is about half a millimetre off from left to right from the chassis.

What caught my eye was what looks like a tiny, tiny bit of adhesive sticking out, then running my hands each side one side is slightly proud, one side slightly not. It's barely noticeable but I wondered if anyone else has had this? Top and bottom are flush. Can I live with it? Possibly; I don't intend to be running my hands up the side of it all day, but it surprised me of Apple having never really seen this kind of thing before from them.
Update: I sent it back for a replacement. It arrived on Monday. Properly started using it yesterday and today. The glass is attached in line with the body. Great. Some strange linear marks on the side, but they cleaned off eventually.

But the real stinker is… it has what is either a dead pixel or some dust under the panel. I really can’t quite believe it. When you look it at and move to different angles it ‘paralaxes’ with what’s being displayed on the screen, as if it’s behind the content. Has anyone experienced this? Can I really send this back again? I’m losing faith in this screen.
 

thosmatthews

macrumors regular
Apr 20, 2021
107
258
Update: I sent it back for a replacement. It arrived on Monday. Properly started using it yesterday and today. The glass is attached in line with the body. Great. Some strange linear marks on the side, but they cleaned off eventually.

But the real stinker is… it has what is either a dead pixel or some dust under the panel. I really can’t quite believe it. When you look it at and move to different angles it ‘paralaxes’ with what’s being displayed on the screen, as if it’s behind the content. Has anyone experienced this? Can I really send this back again? I’m losing faith in this screen.

Very difficult to capture but here it is. I guess it’ll be replacement number 3 coming up…
 

etc

macrumors regular
Sep 27, 2008
235
50
Probably not a price thing if 3 XDR displays are involved. Plus, those displays come with Thunderbolt cables that should also work as USB-C cables?


I was confused by the word muxer. I thought you meant a switch, but you are talking about a cable or adapter that combines USB+DisplayPort to USB-C. I think these can count as a single cable if the "muxing" happens near the computer instead of near the display. For example, Thunderbolt add-in cards (Alpine Ridge, Titan Ridge, Maple Ridge) use a short DisplayPort cable for their DisplayPort input and the Titan Ridge and Maple Ridge use an internal USB 2.0 connection for their USB 2.0 input (USB 3.x comes from the Thunderbolt controller). The Sunix UPD2018 has a single DisplayPort input and USB comes from its ASM1142. It's a little simpler/cheaper than a Thunderbolt add-in card.

Sunix has a new card UPA2015 that supports HBR3 but that's not required for XDR or Apple Studio Display. It uses a ASM3142 which will give full 10 Gbps USB in a PCIe gen 3 slot instead of the 8 Gbps of the ASM1142. Might be nice to convert one of these cards so that an external USB 3.x connection can be used instead of the USB connection from the controller. That way it wouldn't need a PCIe connection to do USB. Instead the PCIe connector is used just to power the card with an externally powered PCIe riser like this: https://hardforum.com/threads/use-usb-c-monitor-without-usb-c.1911817/post-1043937319
It would basically be this: https://www.bizlinktech.com/products/detail/1332/VirtualLink™+Interface+Adapter without VirtualLink mode or the Power Delivery.
I thought the VirtualLink Adapter never existed but saw a mention on twitter
but it costs $350?? https://www.xtal.pro/product/virtuallink-adapter .
There's also this: https://unboundxr.eu/virtuallink-interface-adapter
Yes, I meant multiplexers ("muxers") like the ones you mentioned. As for TB3 Titan Ridge AIC card - I couldn't get 6K with it under Windows or macOS. I've got 6K with onboard TB controller (Z590 Vision D motherboard) only when XDR was connected through USB-C switch, but it's unstable.

So now I use Sunix UPD2018 - no problem, maybe apart from the need to slightly edit display props for macOS. UPA2015 - very interesting, but I don't see any advantages here, because afaik XDR won't use USB 3.0 when it's not TB3.
 
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henrymyf

macrumors regular
Dec 2, 2015
142
59
Eugh, for this much money, this is crazy.

I've just now found a second dead pixel right in the centre of the screen.
If Apple could offer an option to return this exchanged one and get you full refund, then this might be better than have a second exchange. You could place a completely new order, and the chances of the new order to fail should be quite low.
 

zurcezx

macrumors newbie
Jun 11, 2023
2
1
Your question is very interesting for me because I have Gigabyte Z590 Vision D mb with onboard JHL8540 same as yours. I couldn't get 6K through TB4 controller, only 5K max same as you, so I went to USB-C options.

But after your post I decided to try TB again and this time use AMD GPU instead of Nvidia. And I got 6K in both macOS and Windows! It seems that's really Nvidia bug.

I also need to specify, that I couldn't get a picture when XDR was connected directly to TB4 port. It worked only when it was connected to USB-C KVM switch. I guess this switch forces XDR to work in USB-C DP Alt Mode instead of TB or maybe I misconfigured in BIOS something.

Anyway, when I use AMD GPU + JHL8540 - I get 6K in both Windows and macOS. In macOS XDR is determined absolutely correctly - the right default resolution, no resolution higher 6K - so no problems that I had previously in this thread. This is a great discovery and it fully fits to my setup with KVM switch.

But with Nvidia GPU this won't work I see - only 5K max through JHL8540. Luckily I have many other options here to go.

Try this on your NVIDIA

Open CRU, edit your active XDR display and enable the checkboxes for YCbCr (both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4) save and restart64.exe

You will run in either one of these two outcomes.

The display will run at 6k, with limited color but 6k , windows will see it in 4k and your games will run no problem at 6K but the nvidia control panel won't see it at all

The display will loop and windows will start connect and disconnect the display, run reset-all.exe and connect the display again and voila. Windows sees the display at 6K, it's working at 6K , and nvidia control panel sees it as 6k 6bit color.

I have to do this every now and then but seems to consistently make it work. I'm pretty sure it's an issue with the thunderbolt software in windows that is trying to force the wrong color space to the display

--- For Reference

I have a 4090 routing the video through my DP In on my ProArt Z690 Creator board to output thunderbolt to the display
 
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etc

macrumors regular
Sep 27, 2008
235
50
Try this on your NVIDIA

Open CRU, edit your active XDR display and enable the checkboxes for YCbCr (both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4) save and restart64.exe

You will run in either one of these two outcomes.

The display will run at 6k, with limited color but 6k , windows will see it in 4k and your games will run no problem at 6K but the nvidia control panel won't see it at all

The display will loop and windows will start connect and disconnect the display, run reset-all.exe and connect the display again and voila. Windows sees the display at 6K, it's working at 6K , and nvidia control panel sees it as 6k 6bit color.

I have to do this every now and then but seems to consistently make it work. I'm pretty sure it's an issue with the thunderbolt software in windows that is trying to force the wrong color space to the display

--- For Reference

I have a 4090 routing the video through my DP In on my ProArt Z690 Creator board to output thunderbolt to the display
Thank you!
Currently I use PCIe USB-C + DP Alt Mode muxer, so I get 6K up to 12 bit, HDR and everything else except USB 3.0 speed. But it's interesting to try TB3 again, thank you again.
 

zurcezx

macrumors newbie
Jun 11, 2023
2
1
Thank you!
Currently I use PCIe USB-C + DP Alt Mode muxer, so I get 6K up to 12 bit, HDR and everything else except USB 3.0 speed. But it's interesting to try TB3 again, thank you again.
Do you know if your setup would work through the caldigit4? Thinking about getting one since I’m getting worried about switching between pc and Mac so often and wearing the connector
 

etc

macrumors regular
Sep 27, 2008
235
50
Do you know if your setup would work through the caldigit4? Thinking about getting one since I’m getting worried about switching between pc and Mac so often and wearing the connector
Not sure that with TB3 it's possible. To switch between PC and Mac I use USB-C switch like this:

It has minor issues, but generally it works.
 

chef_pooh

macrumors newbie
Jan 5, 2023
13
3
Try this on your NVIDIA

Open CRU, edit your active XDR display and enable the checkboxes for YCbCr (both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4) save and restart64.exe

You will run in either one of these two outcomes.

The display will run at 6k, with limited color but 6k , windows will see it in 4k and your games will run no problem at 6K but the nvidia control panel won't see it at all

The display will loop and windows will start connect and disconnect the display, run reset-all.exe and connect the display again and voila. Windows sees the display at 6K, it's working at 6K , and nvidia control panel sees it as 6k 6bit color.

I have to do this every now and then but seems to consistently make it work. I'm pretty sure it's an issue with the thunderbolt software in windows that is trying to force the wrong color space to the display

--- For Reference

I have a 4090 routing the video through my DP In on my ProArt Z690 Creator board to output thunderbolt to the display

Interesting! Does the display run at 8bit or 10bit (with HDR capabilities)? Or does it actually run at 6bit? Note that I filed a bug here with ASUS, and they confirmed that everything works as intended with AMD GPUs. I have an RTX 4090, and have similar issues with 6k – so they believe it's actually a bug with Nvidia's drivers. Months ago I had similarly thought the bug was on the Thunderbolt driver, but it looks less and less likely. The same behavior exists with the 3-series GPUs (e.g. 3090) FYI.

Do you know if your setup would work through the caldigit4? Thinking about getting one since I’m getting worried about switching between pc and Mac so often and wearing the connector

I use the CalDigit TS4 dock for my Windows Asus ProArt X670E and MacBook Pro M1 Max. I connect the Pro XDR Display with a DisplayPort + USB to USB-C breakout cable directly into the CalDigit TS4, and I basically fill up the USB ports in it. I also use the dock's 2.5Gb/s Ethernet; I frequently use the audio input and SD cards, as well.

Everything works great, with the following hiccups:

1) The CalDigit TS4 usually requires me to unplug/replug the power on the dock when switching from Windows to Mac (though not vice-versa); otherwise, the screen stays blank.
2) Every week or so, someone complains the mic on my Logitech Brio 4k doesn't work. The mic is connected to my Pro XDR, which is daisy-chained into my CalDigit TS4. I just unplug / replug it, and it works fine.

#1 is pretty annoying, and I'm not even sure #2 is an issue with the TS4. For all I know, it could be a bug in the web cam's driver.
 
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