Question: How powerful of a graphics card will work in a beige Power Macintosh G3?

[flyproductions]

If we get the 6200 working then we can do the same for other Nvidia GPUs.

Yes, sure. But what others are there? As the Old World Macs have no AGP, it narrows down to the 5200/5500 breed. Some of which are at least 128bit, but on the other hand offer no real CoreImage support.

2MX / 4MX should - at least on Rev. C Beiges - run "out of the box", if only can be found. I know, my ELSA Gladiac 511, which is now defective, did. I'll try to get one of them again, to confirm this. But the are starting to get somehow rare and expensive.

 

[DearthnVader]

If there was enough space, then I can stitch the Mac and PC roms together.

There should be plenty of space, we think the EEPROM is 2MB. EEPROM ID (C8,4012) : GD GD25Q20 2.7-3.6V 2048Kx1S

Do you have both PNY and EGA 6200 cards?

Just the EVGA card.

You're using a New World Mac so it should work. Does it work with the original fcode? Or is this a PC card that you haven't tried in a Mac before?

Brand new and untested with an FCODE ROM

4d encode-int " subsystem-id" property

That worked, it's running through the debug stuff now, I'll let you know where it stops. BTW is there a way to set the line buffer in a telnet session in OS X's Terminal App, fore this is a crap ton of debug info?

 

[LightBulbFun]

Can the Radeon's work in a Open Firmware 1.0.5 Mac?

Yeah Radeon's work just fine thankfully in an OF 1.0.5 Mac

see for example my Power Macintosh 9600 thread where I run a Radeon 9200 in it for the most part

PowerSurging to Mac OS X 10.5.8: Power Macintosh 9600 fun

so as a few members already know I have been trying to get a Power Macintosh 9600 for almost 4 years now and finally that search has come to and end as recently I finally found one :) my machine is a Power Macintosh 9600/300, from what I have been told it was an ex avid workstation, and...

forums.macrumors.com

the Radeon 9200 even works in my Power Macintosh 4400's who OF implementation I find to be particularly bugged up the arse

this is why im my PowerMac G4 fun thread I have a Radeon X1900 on its way to me, because ATI has a good track record with being Old world friendly and thus

im realy hoping that it works with the PCI to PCIe adapter like the GeForce 6600 does

and that if it does, hoping that ATI did indeed keep the fCode Option ROM old world friendly, so I can hang it out the back of my G3 beige and 9600 and see if I can finally core image in a beige mac this way


and on the topic of adapters I still want to see someone try a proper AGP to PCI adapter like this one, see if someone can shoehorn a Radeon 9800 into a G3 (esp if the X1900 setup turns out not to work)

AGP to PCI adapters - any PCB designers here willing to make one? \ VOGONS

www.vogons.org

 

[flyproductions]

That worked, it's running through the debug stuff now, I'll let you know where it stops.

I got 700k with the Sawtooth and 4(!)k with the Beige. Are you running in an emulation or loading for the real card?

 

[flyproductions]

the Radeon 9200 even works in my Power Macintosh 4400's who OF implementation I find to be particularly bugged up the arse

Would you mind to run a benchmark for the 9200 with OpenGL Extensions Viewer 3.0, similar as possible resolution and settings on a B&W or G4? Would be highly interested, how it compares to the 9000pro.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Would you mind to run a benchmark for the 9200 with OpenGL Extensions Viewer 3.0, similar as possible resolution and settings on a B&W or G4? Would be highly interested, how it compares to the 9000pro.

if you have a download link id more then happy to give it a bash

I have sadly never been able to find any PPC Versions of OpenGL Extensions viewer

(in that I knew they existed I saw them in period posts but could never find any download links to older versions)

 

[DearthnVader]

I got 700k with the Sawtooth and 4(!)k with the Beige. Are you running in an emulation or loading for the real card?

On a G5 with a EVGA PCI 512MB card that is picky as hell. The debug rom did finish but did not produce any display when I booted Tiger.

The ROM I made with the ROM Maker also finished and I was able to get a rather garbled display out of it when I booted Tiger, but booting halts at the window server and just hangs there, in safe mode KP.

I hand edited the ROM I got from the 64k ROM Maker and fixed a few things, sadly still the same as before, garbled display and no window server.

I tried to make a ROM with the ROM Maker that doesn't reduce the rom, but it goes to abort soon after it sets the subsystem-id to 0x10 and all I get are the open and close words.

OF reports "VRAM,memsize 20000000 20000000, with my garbage ROM I made from the ROM Maker@joevt that's 512MB right?

 

[domii]

and on the topic of adapters I still want to see someone try a proper AGP to PCI adapter like this one, see if someone can shoehorn a Radeon 9800 into a G3 (esp if the X1900 setup turns out not to work)

That is an interesting project, I ordered one of the cards on that thread for fun https://recnas.org

Its a simpler conversion, and seems to be limited to 66MHz PCI bus design. But will try it with some cards on the hope they can function somehow at 33mhz instead (doubt it but whatever). Depending on how the signal line was wired between the agp-pci bus. (mind you another rabbit hole is also a thread on overclocking PowerMac PCI bus, from 40 all the way to 60+MHz somewhere just by changing the clock oscillator).

I also remember reading about a German guys work, who made an improvement on the original agp-pci board design (apparently created by a fellow called Ren in 2005) and incorporated some improvements and jumpers for PCI Interrupts (INT#A, B, C, D). I believe he booted & ran a Radeon 9800 AGP in a PCI slot successfully.

Link in German "fur die das deutsche lessen kann" or just run it through google translate

https://extreme.pcgameshardware.de/threads/projekt-agp-1-0-to-pci-adapter.233982/

 

[domii]

this is why im my PowerMac G4 fun thread I have a Radeon X1900 on its way to me, because ATI has a good track record with being Old world friendly and thus

im realy hoping that it works with the PCI to PCIe adapter like the GeForce 6600 does

I wonder, since we know a flashed Geforce 7800 GS does boot into OS 9 on a new world Mac like the MDD.

What about the Geforce 7800 GT PCIe, there is a mac rom on themacelite for that one. Wonder how much similiar the roms are between those two. Guessing it won't support the older OF versions either. But shoehorn that thing into the PCIe x16 adapter and see if it boots - lol

Ok, I broke down and ordered a PCI to PCI Express x16 Conversion Card off ebay also. Might be handy for other types of cards also. And just incase your x1900 works out.

 

[flyproductions]

On a G5 with a EVGA PCI 512MB card that is picky as hell. The debug rom did finish but did not produce any display when I booted Tiger.

The ROM I made with the ROM Maker also finished and I was able to get a rather garbled display out of it when I booted Tiger, but booting halts at the window server and just hangs there, in safe mode KP.

I hand edited the ROM I got from the 64k ROM Maker and fixed a few things, sadly still the same as before, garbled display and no window server.

I tried to make a ROM with the ROM Maker that doesn't reduce the rom, but it goes to abort soon after it sets the subsystem-id to 0x10 and all I get are the open and close words.

OF reports "VRAM,memsize 20000000 20000000, with my garbage ROM I made from the ROM Maker@joevt that's 512MB right?

So the card doesn't even work in New World machines?

Is in this case 512MB a problem as for the AGP-cards? I also had one low profile AGP 512. Don't even know the brand anymore. But i never got it to work with 512MB. Could boot in safe boot with System Profiler showing 512MB. But as soon as i tried booting this ROM with drivers loading: Hang or KP! With a 256MB ROM the card worked normal.

And for the PNY PCI, which is 256MB, the ROM was made just by manualy comparing an adapting things from the PC ROM. As anybody could clearly see in this thread, i don't know anything of fCode. So i just worked in hex without even decompiling anything. Just comparing hex. But the card works perfect in any New World Mac i tested.

 

[joevt]

Yes, sure. But what others are there? As the Old World Macs have no AGP, it narrows down to the 5200/5500 breed. Some of which are at least 128bit, but on the other hand offer no real CoreImage support.

2MX / 4MX should - at least on Rev. C Beiges - run "out of the box", if only can be found. I know, my ELSA Gladiac 511, which is now defective, did. I'll try to get one of them again, to confirm this. But the are starting to get somehow rare and expensive.

Another thing we can do is add Open Firmware 1.0.5 fixes after we get the Open Firmware 2.4 Beige G3 working. Do you have a 1.0.5 machine?

There should be plenty of space, we think the EEPROM is 2MB. EEPROM ID (C8,4012) : GD GD25Q20 2.7-3.6V 2048Kx1S

2Mb = 256K but what does the Expansion Rom Base Address Register report? It's the reg or assigned-address that ends with 30.

reg                02007030 00000000 00000000  00000000 00010000
assigned-addresses 82007030 00000000 80800000  00000000 00010000

You can probe it yourself. In the above example, the config address is 7030.
7030 dup config-l@ swap dup -1 swap config-l! dup config-l@ 1- negate u. config-l!
7000 is the pci config base. 30 is the PCI expansion rom base address register.
The pci config base can be calculated from the bus/device/function PCI address like this:

: pciconfig ( bus dev fun -- adr )
8 << swap b << rot 10 << + + ;

Just the EVGA card.

Brand new and untested with an FCODE ROM

Ok. We don't know if it even works in a New World Mac. It might require more changes to fcode.

That worked, it's running through the debug stuff now, I'll let you know where it stops. BTW is there a way to set the line buffer in a telnet session in OS X's Terminal App, fore this is a crap ton of debug info?

It only takes 40 seconds in the dingusppc emulation to get the 700+K of text (34000+ lines) of logging. I'm using Terminal.app on Mac Pro 2008 running Monterey 12.4. There's an option Preferences... -> Profiles -> Default -> Window -> Scrollback : Limit to available memory.

OF reports "VRAM,memsize 20000000 20000000, with my garbage ROM I made from the ROM Maker@joevt that's 512MB right?

Yes, that's 512 MB. That's one eighth of the 32 bit PCI config space. I don't know if that's a problem.

When the fcode finishes loading, does the device tree have the display device?
Can you do the open-dev / fill rectangle test to see if it produces an image? Try the set-mode command and repeat the fill-rectangle test? Does set-mode change resolution?
Maybe you should try the original PNY rom just to see if it works with that since the logging rom probably isn't helping anything on your New World Mac (but I'll take the log dump for compare).

 

[LightBulbFun]

That is an interesting project, I ordered one of the cards on that thread for fun https://recnas.org

Its a simpler conversion, and seems to be limited to 66MHz PCI bus design. But will try it with some cards on the hope they can function somehow at 33mhz instead (doubt it but whatever). Depending on how the signal line was wired between the agp-pci bus. (mind you another rabbit hole is also a thread on overclocking PowerMac PCI bus, from 40 all the way to 60+MHz somewhere just by changing the clock oscillator).

just so your aware you do realise thats an AGP to PCI adapter in that it plugs into an AGP slot and lets you plug in PCI devices like SATA cards

what I meant to say in my above post was PCI to AGP (as in PCI slot to AGP card) but the vogons people seem to call such an adapter, AGP to PCI for some reason (I guess AGP card to PCI slot)

its all a matter of prospective I guess!

I wonder, since we know a flashed Geforce 7800 GS does boot into OS 9 on a new world Mac like the MDD.

What about the Geforce 7800 GT PCIe, there is a mac rom on themacelite for that one. Wonder how much similiar the roms are between those two. Guessing it won't support the older OF versions either. But shoehorn that thing into the PCIe x16 adapter and see if it boots - lol

Ok, I broke down and ordered a PCI to PCI Express x16 Conversion Card off ebay also. Might be handy for other types of cards also. And just incase your x1900 works out.

thats something I talked about in my thread the 7800 GT is an official Apple OEM card (and I believe the 7800 GS is based off the 7800 GT ROM but I have not double checked that)

but I dont have one to test, as you say it would be quite interesting to test still, but if it does work it would be new world only

Yes, that's 512 MB. That's one eighth of the 32 bit PCI config space. I don't know if that's a problem.

thats an interesting one I wonder if that has anything to do with why my Quadro FX 4500 wont play ball in my PCI to PCIe setup, as thats a 512MB card


I was wondering if that its taking up to much memory space, as described in the PowerMac G4 fun thread, the system will see it an load its fCode ROM and i can see all its properties just fine in the device tree

but the moment i go to plug in a display it all falls over an OF will just hang at display int, or in the case of the G3 blue and white display garbled rubbish and hang

so I was wondering if it was a memory space/overlap issue

@DearthnVader is there a quick and dirty way to disable half the VRAM of an fCode NVIDIA ROM? would be interesting to nerf the card to 256MB and see if behavour changes

(much like how its been suggested to try a 256MB ROM with your 512MB 6200 just to verify things)



I know back in the day MacVidCards was never able to get the full 512MB of the Gainward 7800 GS working, he could get the card to work just fine as a 256MB card but not as a 512MB one

I always wondered if it was an AGP GART issue but now I wonder perhaps it is an address space issue?

 

[DearthnVader]

On a real Beige G3 with Rev. 1 ROM load seems to do load then go!

Buggy as **** this G3 is.

Anyway I'm running through Joe's v5 debug ROM now, but I don't have any other Mac's with a Serial connection at this time, so I'm not sure if what will fit on the screen will be enough to help out here if it bombs out.

 

[DearthnVader]

I know back in the day MacVidCards was never able to get the full 512MB of the Gainward 7800 GS working, he could get the card to work just fine as a 256MB card but not as a 512MB one

I got all 512 MB to work just fine on a SP 1.8Ghz G5 with a 6200 AGP.

 

[LightBulbFun]

I got all 512 MB to work just fine on a SP 1.8Ghz G5 with a 6200 AGP.

are you sure about this?/have any screen shots of it?

I remember looking into this a while back and I cant remember if it was on here or the Strange dog forums

but I seem to recall MVC and Co did try 512MB AGP versions of the 6200 and ran into the same Gainward 7800 GS issues

thats why I asked about details on the 512MB PCI card when you mentioned it here

Geforce 6600/6200 Rom Makers

did you/they ever get any non PCIe 512MB card working in PPC OS X? I remember attempts at the special 7800 GS Gainward card, but the moment they tried to enable more then 256MB of VRAM it fell over I have to wonder if its something to do with the AGP GART etc so I have wondered if a PCI...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[DearthnVader]

are you sure about this?/have any screen shots of it?

I remember looking into this a while back and I cant remember if it was on here or the Strange dog forums

but I seem to recall MVC and Co did try 512MB AGP versions of the 6200 and ran into the same Gainward 7800 GS issues

thats why I asked about details on the 512MB PCI card when you mentioned it here

Geforce 6600/6200 Rom Makers

did you/they ever get any non PCIe 512MB card working in PPC OS X? I remember attempts at the special 7800 GS Gainward card, but the moment they tried to enable more then 256MB of VRAM it fell over I have to wonder if its something to do with the AGP GART etc so I have wondered if a PCI...

forums.macrumors.com

Dearthnvader=nvflash

I did not do anything special, just 64k rom maker and a windows tool arti wrote to edit the nvstrap to hard set 512mb vram and ignore the cards resistors.

 

[joevt]

thats an interesting one I wonder if that has anything to do with why my Quadro FX 4500 wont play ball in my PCI to PCIe setup, as thats a 512MB card

If people have gotten 512MB cards to work in the past then it might not be a problem.

Old World Macs had max 1.5 GB RAM (9500/9600). They are 32 bit and the PCI memory is mapped into the 32 bit address space and accessed with regular PowerPC load and store instructions.

I would check all the assigned addresses for all memory mapped base address registers to see where they were set in relation to each other and RAM and ROM. Maybe the order in which they are probed matters. Also check the memory ranges of the host bridge and other bridges. The lspci command I created for Open Firmware can get all the bytes of PCI config space and I wrote a script to decode the bytes in Mac OS X. But the bytes don't include the see of each memory range, so a dump-device-tree is required to get the info from the reg and assigned-addresses properties, or the lspci command needs to be modified to probe the addresses...

 

[DearthnVader]

Despite OF being very buggy in my Beige, and despite me not having a fully working ROM for my card, Joe's V5 debug rom did complete to the end after some great amount of time.

" pci/@d/@1" open-dev u.

That turned the display connected on, but things hung there in OF.

I don't want to sidetrack the work with the known working PNY cards, but at least I was able to get some sort of display out of my EVGA card with the Beige G3 Rev. 1 ROM.

@joevt here is some documentation on the nvstrap/pstraps:

PSTRAPS: straps readout and override — envytools git documentation

envytools.readthedocs.io

 

[flyproductions]

but I seem to recall MVC and Co did try 512MB AGP versions of the 6200 and ran into the same Gainward 7800 GS issues

Yes, this i can confirm!

i didn't even know that i still have the card. But found it in a forgotten stack in the basement.

It's also PNY, but has a pcb very similar to some Club 3D which is 256MB. So with the Club 3D's ROM it worked just fine. 256MB, of course. But i spend alot of time, trying to get it to work with all the 512MB, comparing to the PC ROM or adapting things from the experiments with the Gainward Bliss. I got to the point where it showed 512MB after a safe boot, but never got it to fully boot to the OS with one of these ROMs.

 

[flyproductions]

Despite OF being very buggy in my Beige, and despite me not having a fully working ROM for my card, Joe's V5 debug rom did complete to the end after some great amount of time.

" pci/@d/@1" open-dev u.

That turned the display connected on, but things hung there in OF.

Was this with the ROM flashed to the card or loaded from disk?

 

[DearthnVader]

Was this with the ROM flashed to the card or loaded from disk?

Loaded from disks( MSDOS 1.44MB Floppy ) don't have the tools to flash the card.

 

[flyproductions]

Loaded from disks( MSDOS 1.44MB Floppy ) don't have the tools to flash the card.

Would even result in the same problems i had: the card not beeing recognized at all.

Sadly i have no floppy in the beige anymore. Would this work wit an USB-floppy too? And what would the command to load the ROM be. If USB doesn't work, i could eventually get a normal floppy drive from som other Mac of the collection.

 

[DearthnVader]

Would even result in the same problems i had: the card not beeing recognized at all.

Sadly i hav no floppy in the beige anymore. Would this work wit an USB-floppy too? and what would the command to load the ROM be. If USB doesn't work, i could eventually get a normal floppy drive from som other Mac of the collection.

No, USB floppy won't work, has to be the Super Drive Floppy.

 

[flyproductions]

No, USB floppy won't work, has to be the Super Drive Floppy.

So i check. Can take one from the LCII or the 6100. Hope the cable is long enough or i have some other around.

 

[DearthnVader]

So i check. Can take one from the LCII or the 6100. Hope the cable is long enough or i have some other around.

Also a ISO9660 CD ROM should be readable on Old World OF.